Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 17 of 17

Thread: Cross-grade? Hard choices - I went w Logos

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    3

    Default Do Not Fail to Crossover

    Good Morning,

    First, I agree with everyone else that I am grateful for BW10 and when it came time to invest in a "Bible Software" program, BW was an easy choice. Now that BW has closed, I do see where I am going to find myself in disagreement with most people on the way forward in these forums. I am seeing a strong tendency to confuse how we FEEL about BW with what choice should be recommended now that BW has essentially decided to go out of business.

    "Accordingly as of June 15, 2018 BibleWorks will cease operation as a provider of Bible software tools."

    That is a finalizing statement. Any which way you try to soften the blow, you are ultimately going to end up in the same boat with no oars, someday. I understand there has been some ambiguity in some other messages that have been released, regarding the "way forward" for BW. That should be ADDITIONAL cause for concern, not reassurance. Maybe it will be sold. Maybe it will just get some attention for a while from the community or the developers, just to keep it from sinking, or maybe nothing significant at all will happen. All maybes, with one certainty: BW was instantly moved to the ICU on 15 June 2018, and it sounds like observation entails a nurse coming in now and then with a box of band-aids and to take it's pulse.

    Typically, the "way forward" in a situation like this, is to sell the program. You find a company you can do business with, realizing that this decision is going to mean that there will be some unpleasant aspects to handing over the care of your "child" to another family. But if you truly believe you are providing a product that provides an invaluable specific service, serves a dedicated base of customers, and has a purpose in the future, then you find a partner and you make a deal. It's really just that simple.

    You might take note of where the passion is placed in the paragraph above. Passion can interfere with you decision-making, or it can motivate objectivity. In our case, the decision to "close the doors" so to speak, seems fairly drastic. But, I trust that that the developers have explored all the options and determined that BW should cease to be. Now THAT, my friends, is the nature of free markets. If your widget has a price tag, you're participating in a market, and markets have characteristics. I have seen some discussion on "commodifying" the Scriptures and all that; well in this case, we are most certainly talking about a commodity (BW participates a market), whether you like it or not. Otherwise there would be nothing to talk about at all on this topic.

    I'm not a developer but I've spent years working in networking infrastructure, operating systems and applications, and server administration. I work in environments where there's always developers nearby and have close friends who are programmers for a living. This whole discussion on "why crossover while it still works!" and "it makes no sense to use something else...you have some patching and updates that will still happen!" and on and on, is all common discussion when an application or system is on it's death bed. That's a discussion users have. It's not a discussion IT professionals have. When it's over, it's over...the only real discussion that happens after that is a bare-bones support strategy that gets you to the funeral (and most of that discussion is financial in nature, with someone no one likes being assigned the job of keeping it alive to a target date).

    I'm going to tell you like any good technician will tell you: CROSSOVER while that opportunity exists. Don't lie to yourself. If you're sitting there on an XP box right now reading this on a CRT, UPGRADE EVERYTHING. Stop trying to save your old Vista-era applications. Stop refusing to see the light. Stop giving people bad advice that will cost them big dollars and endless blues screens and headaches down the road. You are not a tech-rebel if you still think you need to spend money "defragging and optimizing" your computer. You aren't and you don't. Maybe someday, when you just don't care about this kind of stuff anymore, none of this will matter. By all means, keep your old computer and BW10 if you're 98 years old and have a ministry that requires you to use BDAG. But if you anticipate that the you need to plan for the long-term on this earth, then MOVE ON.

    Maybe some of you know the developers of BW . I don't. I have absolutely NO DOUBT, whatsoever, that these guys are incredible. Both as servants in the Kingdom and as professional programmers. Believe me, I consider what it takes to make a program like this work, and it is AMAZING what these TWO GUYS have done, with their small support staff. I would not presume to know their minds or expect them to listen to me if the Lord has spoken to them. If closing the doors on BW is the Lord's will, then I would be a fool to suggest that they should so something else.

    I would expect that this decision would come with responsible recommendations from the developers regarding a way forward for their customers. "Use it as long as you can" is not good technical advice. They know, and lots of people know, what that means, especially considering Microsoft's "Windows as a Service" feature update strategy. They are popping the hood on that thing and really giving it the business on a regular basis. It's an aggressive model and often extensive. I'm not saying you may not get a few years out of BW10. I've been driving the same pick-up truck for 20 years. And I plan to drive it until it dies....but it will most CERTAINLY die. It could die tomorrow.

    Now, you can fire up a VM and use BW on something like that, or use an old machine or even keep using it on your daily driver until it breaks or it starts breaking other things, and if you have some technical capabilities you can even tinker around and make it do some stuff and maybe be happy with that. But for the vast majority of folks who just need their tools to stay sharp, maintenanced and up-to-date, the responsible advice to give is to take advantage of one of the crossover options.

    One thing that does bother me about this, is the identification of the problem of people not being that interested in original language study, and the impact that seems to have had on BW10. In my mind, the decline in interest in original languages is ALL THE MORE reason to keep this program out there in the market, whatever that entails, and aggressively market it. You've got the ECM project going on. You've got Daniel Wallace out there digitizing everything he can find and the CSNTM project. You've got CBGM and just all kinds of things going on out there that put us all in a very unique position historically when it comes to the text. Frankly, I was anticipating that BW would actually EXPAND as we moved forward. There's no reason to think that there will not be an INCLINE in original language study as these things come together. If that can't be done now for the reasons the developers have given, then it seems to me that the program could be passed along to someone who would be equally committed to the text and provide tools to benefit from all the work that is being done in textual criticism.

    The promise for compatibility fixes is very considerate of the developers, but this implies there will be no additional feature updates. That may or may not matter to you. I still have the old Nelson's Electronic Bible Reference Library installed on an old XP VM. Sometimes, I go look at it and reminisce, and think about all those patches that came down and how I tried to keep it alive as long as I could. After adding all those references and doing all that patching and keep up with it for years....well, I haven't used it in a long, long time. I'm not much of a gamer, but I was still playing AoE II on my Windows 10 box until not long ago, with some tinkering about...until I started experiencing regular blue screens. Tracking down the cause of the blue screens was like finding a needle in a haystack, until I finally just got rid of AoE II. The blue screens disappeared along with my ability to be Persian and attack another civilization with an army of really cool 90's era elephants. I'm really going to miss those elephants man.

    I know many of you are going to hate me for saying it, but I have no personal financial or philosophical interest in the matter. I'm say save your money and lots of heartache by UPGRADING (or crossing over as the case may be). Logos and Accordance are currently offering exceptionally good deals for BW users, but I would not take the risk of expecting that last long. I think we're all here because we love the TEXT. We are here because we use tools that focus on the TEXT. Let's not get hung up on engineering ways to keep using a PROGRAM.

    To the developers, I have nothing but gratitude for your work and the best hopes for your future. If everyone has come to a place where it is providentially obvious that everyone needs to do something different, then what an exciting time you have ahead! Thank God that He always has a purpose and a future for us...we never have to worry about running out of things to do. God Bless you all, and thank you for using your talents to bless us all.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EDODT View Post
    Good Morning,

    First, I agree with everyone else that I am grateful for BW10 and when it came time to invest in a "Bible Software" program, BW was an easy choice. Now that BW has closed, I do see where I am going to find myself in disagreement with most people on the way forward in these forums. I am seeing a strong tendency to confuse how we FEEL about BW with what choice should be recommended now that BW has essentially decided to go out of business.

    "Accordingly as of June 15, 2018 BibleWorks will cease operation as a provider of Bible software tools."

    That is a finalizing statement. Any which way you try to soften the blow, you are ultimately going to end up in the same boat with no oars, someday. I understand there has been some ambiguity in some other messages that have been released, regarding the "way forward" for BW. That should be ADDITIONAL cause for concern, not reassurance. Maybe it will be sold. Maybe it will just get some attention for a while from the community or the developers, just to keep it from sinking, or maybe nothing significant at all will happen. All maybes, with one certainty: BW was instantly moved to the ICU on 15 June 2018, and it sounds like observation entails a nurse coming in now and then with a box of band-aids and to take it's pulse.

    . . .

    I know many of you are going to hate me for saying it, but I have no personal financial or philosophical interest in the matter. I'm say save your money and lots of heartache by UPGRADING (or crossing over as the case may be). Logos and Accordance are currently offering exceptionally good deals for BW users, but I would not take the risk of expecting that last long. I think we're all here because we love the TEXT. We are here because we use tools that focus on the TEXT. Let's not get hung up on engineering ways to keep using a PROGRAM....
    I certainly don't hate you for saying it, but I do disagree with you. If I have a program that supplies my computer-based needs for studying the text, and will for the foreseeable future, why would I spend hundreds of dollars on something I don't need? And who knows what lies in the future for those programs you mention? Within the next 5 years, there could be a new Bible study program(s) that far surpasses Logos and Accordance. Or one of those companies may cease operations. If in 5 years I see needs arising that BW no longer meets that another program does; or if in 10 years BW is no longer compatible with the machine I'm running, then I'll see what best meets my needs at that time.
    καὶ ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀπέθανεν ἵνα οἱ ζῶντες μηκέτι ἑαυτοῖς ζῶσιν, ἀλλὰ τῷ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ἀποθανόντι καὶ ἐγερθέντι.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    10

    Default

    I asked myself these questions:


    • How long will Bibleworks function with no additional technical effort on my part?
    • How long will Logos & Accordance offer these bundles at these prices?
    • How long will I be able to afford these products?


    I don't know the answers to any of these questions. What I do know is that the bundles are available now, and I was able to afford one of them now.

    We are all in different places in life and in ministry. I'm about to turn 40, and I hope to serve in ministry for another 30 years by God's grace. I expect ministry to get harder, financially, not easier. I could afford the crossover package now only because I have a healthy church budget. What seems wise to Lee would be foolish for me. It sounds like, "Don't spend less money now when you can afford it."

    I appreciate Mike's commitment to keep Bibleworks running. I am glad he's hoping there's some future for Bibleworks. As long as it's working, I'm here. And if someone buys the company and makes it even better, I'll still be here. But I happen to agree with EDODT, and I've been baffled by what seems to be emotional resistance to people taking Logos & Accordance up on their offers. Yes, these are much more expensive than Bibleworks. But based on the way they've run their companies, I expect it to be much more expensive to cross over at some future date with anything like the feature set you can get now.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    3

    Default

    [QUOTE=ACAdams;35933]I asked myself these questions:


    • How long will Bibleworks function with no additional technical effort on my part?
    • How long will Logos & Accordance offer these bundles at these prices?
    • How long will I be able to afford these products?


    Those really are the biggest considerations. I don't think anyone is HAPPY to have to make this decision. These other programs ARE quite expensive. That is why it will probably save you money in the long run if you take advantage of crossover packages that are available now. These are pretty substantial discounts being offered.

    As far as what the future holds, that's a life problem. I have several hundred print books. My wife would tell you, I am nearly walled in here by books. All it takes is a fire or a flood and decades of purchases are GONE. And there's quite a bit of this stuff that cannot be replaced.

    I don't like reading books electronically (which is ironic considering my industry). An electronic library has the benefit of being safe from a fire or flood, but the well-known risk we are all experiencing now, in addition to other issues like file formats. I plan to duplicate SOME titles I have in print, but certainly not all. The language tools and research benefits are what I really use when it comes to the electronic format. I'm not planning on building a massive electronic library, but I'm not buying many more print books either, which means I'm essentially splitting my library.

    What I am doing for myself, is building my own tools using several different printed Bibles: a wide-margin Cambridge NASB, an interleaved ESV, a CBP note-taker's KJV, and keeping my Thompson Chain NKJV, BHS and NA27-28 which i keep in a fireproof/waterproof safe. In addition to just a few other printed books, a loose-leaf Bible and a ton of written notes.

    But, what really might be the most important of them all, is an NASB pocket Bible I've had for years, containing both the OT and NT, and a magnifying glass. So, in a way, I'm kind of a "prepper" when it comes to the Bible, anyway, and I try to leverage my risks when it comes to print and electronic formats.

    I don't see Logos going anywhere soon. They seem to be sensitive to this concern: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/169866.aspx

    Accordance has a lot of attractive aspects to it's way of doing things, as well, and seems to have durable position in the market. It is a far more affordable option, and people speak well of the integrity of the company

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    3

    Default Note on Logos

    Just one item to consider with Logos, you have to have purchased a BW license BEFORE 1 JUNE 2018 to use their crossgrade option. I have looked pretty hard at Accordance, and do not see that limitation on their crossgrade options

  6. #16

    Default

    I would like to thank those who posted information about the availability of the cross-grade packages.

    Without those posts, I would not have known about their availability.

    The sudden closure of Bibleworks with only two weeks warning made no sense to me.

    In Business (or ministry), the selection and training of a successor is part of any good long term plan.
    Something clearly went wrong here, but it is obviously too late for anyone to fix it.

    As far as the Bibleworks program goes, it is married to the Windows API, which Microsoft itself seems
    determined to eliminate. Lets face it. Microsoft has taken one of the most successful software products
    ever and managed to destroy it in a few short years. You know its over for Windows when people on the
    Bibleworks forum are installing Bibleworks on Linux and even Chromebooks.

    Me personally, I plan on running Windows 7 forever. That was the last version Microsoft sold before they
    destroyed it. I will likely reinstall Biblework 6. I think that was the last one that was not dependent upon online
    activation. Then I do not have to worry whether the activation still works or not.

    With future hardware, we are finally seeing high resolution displays on portable devices. This is progress,
    but is also a big problem for older Windows software which was not designed for a scalable interface.

    Bibleworks 10 added a feature which allows it to adapt to higher resolution displays. It is not a perfect
    solution but it works. Problem for me is i have tons of other software that does not adapt. So i have made
    the decision to stick with a 1080p display. That is about the highest resolution that still works well on
    Windows 7 with older Windows API programs that use a fixed DPI.

    For Internet I am using a Chromebook now. I no longer trust microsoft and their update process enough to
    risk being online with a Windows computer. The Chromebook is simple, zero maintenance, always works and
    never crashes. And never gets viruses.

    These are all my personal choices. I have been programming computers since the commodore 64 and have a
    lot of legacy stuff. Other people might have totally different needs.

    The future of commercial Bible software belongs to those companies that had the vision to go cross platform.
    Technology is always changing and you have to change with it to remain relevant. No matter how good your
    program is, if it doesn't work on the new tablet/phone/laptop that your potential customer just bought, you
    are out of business. Logos and Accordance both offer Windows, Android and Ios support. I do not know how
    good any of it works, but it is there. I personally will never choose an option that is dependent upon a server
    somewhere that someone else controls.

    I think Accordance is a good program. I ran the free demo a little bit last year. Logos has a lot of resources,
    but their software has never impressed me much. But at this time I think I will just stick with what I
    already have.

    Linux does not seem to be a viable option. If Linux doesn't have Hardware accelerated graphics and cannot
    handle multiple monitors by now, I don't have a lot of confidence it ever will. It will work for some people
    in some situations. It is sad because Linux had so much potential. But it never went mainstream except
    when Google hijacked it (Android and Chromebook, and next the Pixel book).

    Chromebooks are interesting. They will eventually overtake Windows. Right now all they do is
    web browsing. But they will soon be running Android apps on them. The Pixelbooks already run Android,
    Linux and Windows apps. In theory then, on a Chromebook those who have Logos or Accordance would
    have the option of either the web interface or the Android App.

    None of this is going to be better than what we already have with Bibleworks on a PC. Chromebooks are
    basically a stripped down Linux with a web browser for the interface. In terms of performance, this is quite a
    step backwards. The trend in computing now is to take all the power and capability out of the hands of the
    end user and give it to the big tech companies.

    It is good that we all have a choice whether we want to follow that trend. I choose not too.

    I had not intended for this post to get so long. Maybe my ramblings will help someone decide what to do?

    John

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    276

    Default

    I'm wary about contributing to a post that touches on an impassioned subject, but perhaps one more take on the situation can be helpful. As mentioned elsewhere, I have great appreciation for BW and the folks who have poured their energy into it for more than two decades. Personally, it's been a constant companion for over 20 years.

    Should one take advantage of the crossover deals? It all depends on where one is at and what he/she is doing. I can understand those who have been working with, for example, BW7 for the last 10+ years because it gives them what they need for their ministry, or who decide to stick with BW10 because they are in, say, the last quarter of their active ministry.

    As has already been said, technology evolves rapidly. That's a real issue. I switched from PC to Mac in 2009 and have been happy to use the Mac version of BW9 and 10, despite ongoing differences between a program that runs like it's in its native environment and one that, despite everything, still "feels" like it's going through an emulator. Will BW continue to work through the next several iterations of OS? That's an open question.

    However, technology isn't my only concern. Texts also evolve. Nestle-Aland is now in its 28th edition, with the next coming in, say perhaps 5 years. Biblical translations are regularly updated. New tools are constantly coming out that enrich and facilitate deeper study of the Biblical text. As someone who is definitely low-tech, I have neither the capability nor the time to go into coding to make sure a CHM window stops jumping behind another. That's one thing. But as someone who is involved in teaching, writing and showing students the material they should be investing in, it doesn't make any sense to me not to take advantage of one or another of the crossover programs currently on offer. Again, it all depends on where one is at and what one is doing.

    I fully agree that throwing a ton of money into electronic books is a risky investment. I've bought a few over the years, mostly when sales make the prices unbeatable, and/or because I feel pretty sure I can get good use out of them. But beyond that, the main question, for me, is how can I make sure that the tools I use on a daily basis can be up-to-date, hassle-free and integrated into my work flow as that evolves due to new activities and/or technology? What software company can I make suggestions to so that it can be improved, work out inevitable glitches or shortcomings, and evolve as new needs come up?

    I would not have said this before June 15, but I have been very impressed with Accordance's willingness to work with former BW customers and offer them close equivalents to the material that is jam-packed into BW9 and 10. I decided to invest $300 in their Crossover packages ($149 x2) because 1) adding up what they offered fairly well approximates the most essentiel texts and functions (at least for my use) that I have in BW10, and 2) it gives me for a very reasonable price what would have come up to over $2300 had I bought the items separately. Out of respect, I would be loath to say that they're just out to get my money. They have been helpful, respectful of BW and its customers, and have made a clear effort to cater to those people's work habits and needs. Of course, they are trying to make enough money to stay afloat. That's what one needs to do in order to stay in business and one can hardly blame them for it.

    I will continue to use and appreciate BW as long as possible. Again I thank Mike Bushell, Michael Tan, and the others, from the bottom of my heart, for all they have done. It is—and this is no exaggeration—immeasurable. But for me, at least, that's not the last word.

    Don Cobb
    Aix-en-Provence, France

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •