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Thread: Cross-grade? Hard choices - I went w Logos

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    7

    Default Cross-grade? Hard choices - I went w Logos

    Now that the day is upon us, I wondered how others are adjusting. I've only posted once or twice before, but I've used Bibleworks everyday for years. I was an e-sword user before that, working through Seminary with free software while my fellows bought Bibleworks and Logos. Even if price had been no object, Bibleworks was always my choice. And when I finally purchased it, it immediately became the centerpiece of my exegetical work. The addition of manuscript photographs was probably the greatest gift I have ever received. Reading Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus for the first time was like opening something amazing on Christmas Day.

    The day that Michael made the announcement, I was in a daze the rest of the day. I feel like it's kind of like getting bad news from the doctor. I went on YouTube and the websites for Accordance and Logos, to try to figure out if there was some way forward that would be usable to me.

    I was excited to see that accordance was offering a crossgrade package, and it looks fast. I was worried about two things, though. First, I have only known to people who use it. Is it possible that accordance users will have a similar choice to make at some point in the future? Second, I was worried about the user experience. I had no one to compare notes with.

    Before Logos had made any announcements about a crossgrade package, I contacted their sales department and started a conversation. The base packages for Logos are so expensive, and include so little of what I wanted, then I was not optimistic at all. A few days later, the sales department called me back and told me about a cross grade package that they had put together. I had clearance from my church to spend a specific amount, and did not expect Logos to come anywhere near it. I am not sure that the prices he quoted me are the same for every Bibleworks user, but the quote for their lower cross grade package was lower than the price for the total Accordance package. The other package, what they're calling the upgrade package, was quite a bit more. In fact, it was more than I was authorized to spend. But it included things like BDAG. I ended up going with this larger package, which was more even than their current price for the bronze base package. But I am very happy.

    I told the salesperson that if they had not come in with a reasonable price for the lower cross grade package, I would never have considered the upgrade package.

    Here are a few initial thoughts after working with Logos for just a couple of days:

    * I can do things in Logos I never did in Bibleworks. I've used Bibleworks for exegetical and homiletical notes, and doing the same in logos takes a little bit of getting used to. I liked the fact that I was basically just editing RTF documents. But the thing I like about logos is that it is automatically synced to the cloud. The fact that it automatically Builds an outline is really great. And I don't have to use the pop-up text copy in logos because it will automatically insert scriptures into my sermon notes when I just type the reference.
    * I did not expect to purchase commentaries for Logos, because I love having paper commentaries. The upgrade package includes the International Critical Commentary, though, and I found that consulting Cranfield on Romans was so easy that I might change my mind. It was seamless to go between exegetical notes, NA28, Cranfield, and the early church fathers.

    On the other hand,
    * Logos requires significant amount of time to update resources and then index them. I wasn't expecting this, and found that the program wasn't really usable until I left my computer indexing for a couple of hours. This ate into study time and prep time.
    * Everything we have thought about the target audience and goals of Logos is absolutely true. For those of us who are primarily focused on exegesis and mining the word, the user experience is a little bit like relearning how to use someone else's tools to do a job that they weren't designed to do. You can do it, and it's actually quite enjoyable, but it's taken me time to figure out. There are instructional videos included with Logos that helped a lot with this. The only drawback is that you can only watch them at a maximum of 2x speed, and then the video stutters, or at least it did on my computer, so I ended up watching them at normal speed.
    * I have not figured out an easy way to do the kinds of searches in Logos that I'm so accustomed to doing. At least at this point, I find that I have Bibleworks and Logos open simultaneously, so that I can do some of my work in each program. I hope that the migration of Bibleworks customers into these other programs will be enough of the reason for the creators to build some new functionality that will mimic some of our favorite features from Bibleworks. And of course, I'm hoping that Bibleworks will remain usable for many years regardless.
    * Logos does require some patience. I am so used to the instantaneous, or seemingly instantaneous results in Bibleworks that I think I must be spoiled. Everything in logos that you can do in bibleworks takes just a little bit longer than you're used to. I think the fact that I can do things in logos that are impossible in Bibleworks will offset that to a certain extent.
    * the upgrade package came with a lot of great stuff, including BDAG, LSJ, Louw-Nida, etc. But if Bibleworks were to stop working, I would really miss my reference grammars and those mss photos, along with other exegetical stuff!

    All in all, I am happier than I thought I'd be. And I'm extremely happy to see how these two companies have stepped in to offer tailored options for us in what really is a difficult transition.

    I'm wondering if others might share their cross-grade experience.
    Last edited by ACAdams; 06-18-2018 at 12:36 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    764

    Default

    Honestly, and meaning no offense, I'm wondering why the quick jump to Logos, or anywhere? BibleWorks will not stop working today or tomorrow. There will be technical-compatibility updates for the foreseeable future, Mike B. has said. I don't expect BW to quit doing anything I need it to do, except add more modules in the future. I've filed away the Logos and Accordance crossgrade info, but just for myself I don't see the need to do that anytime soon.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    7

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    Hi David,
    I hear where you're coming from. The best way to explain it is that I don't want to switch, but I also don't want to be unprepared for future changes. I don't know how long the cross grade packages will be available, and I don't know how long Bibleworks will function. Maybe 10 years. Maybe not. The switch will have to happen at some point, and I have the means now, and might not in the future.

    There's another reason: evaluating the crossover process for the benefit of others. As one who never wanted to switch, I now have an experience to share with others who might be wondering what to do.

  4. #4
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    Mar 2009
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    764

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    Thanks, AC. That all makes sense.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    11

    Default

    What is the price range of the cross-grade for the two BW to Logos packages?

    https://www.logos.com/product/156005...sgrade-package

    https://www.logos.com/product/156006/bw-upgrade-package

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    7

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    Hi Chris,
    I don't know what the range is, but I know that the price I got was only for people who owned Bibleworks 10 before June 1st and have NEVER purchased a Logos package before. There may be other factors, too. My suggestion is that you contact them directly and find out what kind of deal you can get. The guy I worked with was named Dan, and he was great. You can contact him at dan.hughes@faithlife.com

    The price I was given was $250 for the cross-grade package or $750 for the upgrade package, but again, that price would not be the same for people who have previously purchased a Logos base package.

    Also, I know that Michael has encouraged folks not to jump at a cross-grade package, since Bibleworks should continue to work for many years. I'd suggest weighing your reasons for purchasing a cross-grade package carefully against good financial stewardship.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Hey all,
    It wasn't my intention with this thread to suggest we should all abandon Bibleworks, or that we should all waste money on gimmicks. Like I said, I have rarely felt so much joy as I did the first time I opened Codex Sinaiticus on Bibleworks and started reading. Michael, as long as you keep it running, I'll be a BW user.

    I'm not sure why you suggest we should "at least" sell our BW license if we buy a cross grade product.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    25

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    Sorry if I sounded harsh. I just want to avoid discouraging people who have BW10 with the thought that they have an albatross.

    I came from the other side of things with this announcement. I had heard about BibleWorks from friends over the years, but felt it was too advanced for my level of proficiency with Greek at that time. Plus as an Olive Tree employee I have access to a few of the same resources found in BW. However, when I heard this announcement, I borrowed a friend's copy of BW 10, tried it out and purchased it the next day. I was that impressed by the power of the software for digging into the text. I couldn't stop there, and ended up purchasing nearly every greek module. So while others are off looking to cross-grades, I was wholeheartedly investing in BibleWorks before it was gone for good! It is definitely not an albatross!
    --
    David

  9. #9

    Default

    I also am among those who plan to use BibleWorks for as long as I can. It still has some functions unavailable in Accordance or Logos, and it still has a ton of resources that I can't afford in the others.

    That said, and FYI... The Basic crossover for Accordance is $149, and that gets you to a decent position but with the odd omission of a modern, eclectic Greek NT (either NA28 or UBS5). You're at $200 just adding that in. You also don't get the multitude of English and other language versions you have in BW. If you want NA28, Josephus and Philo, Targums, Peshitta, and a few other worthwhile English versions that are already included in BW10, it costs an extra $189. So now you're up to $340 for a package that is certainly attractive but still doesn't have a ton of things that BW has. At least Accordance has a crossgrade policy so you can get some resources at reduced cost. (E.g., EDNT and HALOT but not BDAG.) That shows you why a BW10 license is still valuable!

    For comparison... I also have the Gold Version of the latest Logos which means I have a ton of their resources. It truly is a fine program, and they have the best Android app by far for original language work. Their basic crossgrade includes hundreds of resources and most everything you'd need to get started, but out of all of them, there are only 68 I don't already have in my Logos, and only 6 that I would really like to have. With their dynamic pricing, to get those 68 resources: $275. Is BW 10 looking like a better deal to you yet? For the Logos BW upgrade, there are hundreds more, and now we are starting to get some decent resources that aren't included in BW. Of them all, there are 168 I don't already have in my Logos library, but there really are only 6 or so that would be nice to have (plus the 6 or so that were part of the crossgrade). My dynamic price for the upgrade: $572. As you might guess, I won't be doing the Logos crossgrade or upgrade.

    Once again, thanks to BW for their ministry in the outstanding and reasonably priced software they have offered all these years.
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Glatfelter Professor of Biblical Studies
    United Lutheran Seminary at Gettysburg & Philadelphia
    uls.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    6

    Default Cross-grades

    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    In my opinion, no matter how much you may be persuaded that a cross-grade will save you, staying with a product that you already have and works for you, with a free compatibility promise, will save you money in the long run.
    That's my opinion as well, Mike.

    I'm not crossgrading because I don't want to pay money now to "replace" what I already have. Even without a rebirth of BibleWorks by a new owner or whatever, it appears to me that it will be many years before BibleWorks becomes non-functional -- even if that means eventually switching to a platform like Linux. If and when BibleWorks becomes non-functional, a "crossgrade" may be more expensive at that time, but I will not have spent money upgrading and maintaining "duplicate" bible software over those years.

    My only regret is that I did not realize until too late that we could buy extra copies of the license to resell or even better, to give as gifts.

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