Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 14 of 14

Thread: Hebrew Words and How They Are Translated in the NT

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    580

    Default

    I think this is a good approach (and there may well be ways to do it in BW, following the lines already suggested). It has long been posited among Bible scholars that the NT authors (whose Bibles were not divided into verses!) often thought of the nearby context when citing something. And in that case, note what happens as your read from Ps. 117:2 on into Ps. 118.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    344

    Default This might help a bit

    Quote Originally Posted by MGVH View Post
    If anyone should take the time to create the verse list described by Glenn, it would be greatly appreciated if you share it here!
    Mark, I have created a quick and dirty .vls from ntotgrk.sdf, called ntotwtt01.vls. I will try to attach it. (The forum doesn't like .vls, so I'm attaching it as .txt) I did it by manual editing, using SPFLite, so there may/will be some human errors. Also, ntotgrk.sdf is based on BGT; when BW VLM converted the references, verses that mapped to 2 WTT verses ended up with only the first verse in the converted list. If I have time in the next few days (my family are inconsiderate enough to claim I owe them some time to celebrate my 70th birthday) I may try to do the same thing with ntot.sdf, where the OT references are based on NAU. I expect the mapping may be less problematic there. Mark Eddy cleaned up the original Jeff Jackson file, so maybe he'll be kind enough to put one out with the OT column based on WTT.
    One addendum to Glenn's advice -- I discovered that it is very easy to have BW accept a verse list as a "predefined custom search range". This makes it easy to set the range, even from the command line if you wish, and it persists as long as you want. Loading the verse list into the Search Window means that after your first search you now have a new limit defined, and if you want to tinker your search you have to reload the verse list into the Search Window.

    Quote Originally Posted by matthiasfan View Post
    When I read a passage like Romans 15:9-12, חסד is not in any of the passages cited from the Old Testament (if memory serves me well). In verse 11, Paul quotes Psalm 117:1 which does not contain this word, but the very next verse does. In fact, Psalm 117:2 seems to act as an explanatory verse as to why this praise should occur. So there will be a limitation on doing this kind of search because it does not take surrounding context into consideration.

    The extra step that would have to be added (at least from my perspective), is to be able to do a search for חסד within a certain number of words for quoted OT texts.
    It is fairly easy to do your extra step.
    After you have copied the file attached to this post into your BibleWorks 10/ase folder, change the .txt suffix to .vls.
    Set you search limits to cl-otntwtt01.vls: go to main BW menu "Search/Set Search Limits" and click on "Use Verse List File", select the .vls file, click on OK, then click on Save.
    Using this search limit I found 9 verses; 4 were discussed in A&C, the 5 that weren't in A&C were mapped by otntgrk.sdf to Jam 5:11.
    Set your search version to WTM and construct a query on the command line something like this ";* *40 dsx *40 *" (sorry I couldn't get the hebrew characters to stay in place with the surrounding characters). The 40 means 40 lemmas; you can of course choose the direction and/or distance you want to extend your search.
    Do not hit enter -- the query would run for a long time and not go beyond the verse boundaries. You could add ";3" at the end to make it look up to 2 verses away, but that would run even slower, and give a wrong result. Instead, open the GSE, where your query will appear in graphic form (the button that looks like an old fashioned magnifying glass, or menu Search/Graphical Search Engine, or F9). In the Query Window choose menu item Query/Properties/Flags and choose "Cross verse boundaries (slower)", click on OK.
    Run the query (the "go" button, or menu Query/Run).
    The Search Window will show the verses from the search limits; if the hit was in a neighboring verse you have to go looking for it. (There is an option for command line searches to show all affected verses when a search crosses verse boundaries, but it doesn't seem to work for GSE.)

    This will still not find your Psalm 117 example. There are two reasons for this.
    (1) otntgrk.sdf maps Rom 15:11 to Psa 116:1, both in BW version BGT. BW maps Psa 116:1 BGT to both Psa 116:19 WTT and Psa 117:1 WTT (BGT and WTT are out of sync 1 chapter here). When I used the BW Verse List Manager to convert the references from BGT to WTT, it only created one reference, for Psa 116:19 WTT.
    (2) BW cross-verse queries, using GSE, cannot cross book boundaries, or Psalm chapter boundaries. BW help does not explain why they discriminate against the Psalms this way.

    Shalom,
    Jim
    Attached Files Attached Files

  3. #13

    Default

    Thanks, Jim. I'll play around with it. And χαρουμενα γενεθλια σοι!
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Professor of Biblical Studies
    Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg
    ltsg.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Excellent, I will play around with this as well. I appreciate your work and your explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Wert View Post
    Mark, I have created a quick and dirty .vls from ntotgrk.sdf, called ntotwtt01.vls. I will try to attach it. (The forum doesn't like .vls, so I'm attaching it as .txt) I did it by manual editing, using SPFLite, so there may/will be some human errors. Also, ntotgrk.sdf is based on BGT; when BW VLM converted the references, verses that mapped to 2 WTT verses ended up with only the first verse in the converted list. If I have time in the next few days (my family are inconsiderate enough to claim I owe them some time to celebrate my 70th birthday) I may try to do the same thing with ntot.sdf, where the OT references are based on NAU. I expect the mapping may be less problematic there. Mark Eddy cleaned up the original Jeff Jackson file, so maybe he'll be kind enough to put one out with the OT column based on WTT.
    One addendum to Glenn's advice -- I discovered that it is very easy to have BW accept a verse list as a "predefined custom search range". This makes it easy to set the range, even from the command line if you wish, and it persists as long as you want. Loading the verse list into the Search Window means that after your first search you now have a new limit defined, and if you want to tinker your search you have to reload the verse list into the Search Window.


    It is fairly easy to do your extra step.
    After you have copied the file attached to this post into your BibleWorks 10/ase folder, change the .txt suffix to .vls.
    Set you search limits to cl-otntwtt01.vls: go to main BW menu "Search/Set Search Limits" and click on "Use Verse List File", select the .vls file, click on OK, then click on Save.
    Using this search limit I found 9 verses; 4 were discussed in A&C, the 5 that weren't in A&C were mapped by otntgrk.sdf to Jam 5:11.
    Set your search version to WTM and construct a query on the command line something like this ";* *40 dsx *40 *" (sorry I couldn't get the hebrew characters to stay in place with the surrounding characters). The 40 means 40 lemmas; you can of course choose the direction and/or distance you want to extend your search.
    Do not hit enter -- the query would run for a long time and not go beyond the verse boundaries. You could add ";3" at the end to make it look up to 2 verses away, but that would run even slower, and give a wrong result. Instead, open the GSE, where your query will appear in graphic form (the button that looks like an old fashioned magnifying glass, or menu Search/Graphical Search Engine, or F9). In the Query Window choose menu item Query/Properties/Flags and choose "Cross verse boundaries (slower)", click on OK.
    Run the query (the "go" button, or menu Query/Run).
    The Search Window will show the verses from the search limits; if the hit was in a neighboring verse you have to go looking for it. (There is an option for command line searches to show all affected verses when a search crosses verse boundaries, but it doesn't seem to work for GSE.)

    This will still not find your Psalm 117 example. There are two reasons for this.
    (1) otntgrk.sdf maps Rom 15:11 to Psa 116:1, both in BW version BGT. BW maps Psa 116:1 BGT to both Psa 116:19 WTT and Psa 117:1 WTT (BGT and WTT are out of sync 1 chapter here). When I used the BW Verse List Manager to convert the references from BGT to WTT, it only created one reference, for Psa 116:19 WTT.
    (2) BW cross-verse queries, using GSE, cannot cross book boundaries, or Psalm chapter boundaries. BW help does not explain why they discriminate against the Psalms this way.

    Shalom,
    Jim

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •