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Thread: A question on Hebrew Accent

  1. #1
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    Default A question on Hebrew Accent

    The fourth word of 1Ch 10:1 of WTT in BW10, •ַ™ָּ*ָס , has an Athnach, which is very odd because the immediately preceding word has also an Athnach which is perfectly normal. Checking with BHS and Leningrad Codex, it is discovered that the word in question has a Mahpak and not an Athnach, which looks also perfectly normal.

    Shouldn't the Athnach in WTT in question be corrected to a Mahpak?

    Thank you for your answer.

    P.S. Sorry the Hebrew word did not appear as I intended, and I do not know how to correct it. But it is the fourth word of 1Ch 10:1. Thanks for your patience.
    Last edited by Yaku Lee; 07-26-2016 at 04:50 AM.

  2. #2
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    The fourth word of 1Ch 10:1 of WTT in BW10, •ַ™ָּ*ָס , has an Athnach, which is very odd because the immediately preceding word has also an Athnach
    The issue you noted above also appears outside of BibleWorks in competing platforms' editions of this same text for example:
    (a) the Groves-Wheeler Westminster Hebrew Morphology, v. 4.20. (Accordance HMT-W4)
    (b) Biblia Hebraica Westmonasteriensis with Westminster Hebrew Morphology 4.18. (faithlife/Logos edition)

    I think it would be better to inform the J. Alan Groves Center for Advanced Biblical Studies of this issues since this issue apparently originates with that organization. Here is a link were you can contact them directly regarding your concerns: http://www.grovescenter.org/GC/contact-info

    P.S. Sorry the Hebrew word did not appear as I intended, and I do not know how to correct it. But it is the fourth word of 1Ch 10:1. Thanks for your patience.
    check to see that you BibleWorks 10 export/copy paste settings are set to Unicode and then you should be able paste text into the post like this:
    וּפְלִשְׁתִּ֖ים נִלְחֲמ֣וּ בְיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיָּ֑נָס אִֽישׁ־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ מִפְּנֵ֣י פְלִשְׁתִּ֔ים וַיִּפְּל֥וּ חֲלָלִ֖ים בְּהַ֥ר גִּלְבֹּֽעַ׃

    If, however, that still fails you can also take a screen shot by pressing the 'Prt Sc' button on your keyboard then you can insert images of text into the forums like in the following example:
    Name:  Athnach issue.png
Views: 320
Size:  30.5 KB
    Last edited by bkMitchell; 07-28-2016 at 09:49 PM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  3. #3
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    Default It seems to be correct

    Well, before anything further is reported anywhere, the accenting seems to be correct in the digital texts. At any rate, I just checked with my printed BHS, and it has the repeated Athnach, exactly as it appears in BibleWorks. It does seem very odd; but I haven't studied this for many years. It might be worthwhile for someone to look into it.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  4. #4
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    You have made the issue at hand very clear.
    Thank you very much.

  5. #5
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    Default JDP has Mahpak

    For the record, JDP (The J.D. Price Accent Database) has Mahpak.
    It is my impression that J.D. Price is not based solely on the Leningrad codex. (Yes, I realize that the BW Leningrad images shows Mahpak. Just saying that JDP is an alternative source of accent information.)

    Unfortunately, mousing over a word does not display the JDP accent translation, either in WTT or JDP, so one must look up the meanings of the JDP accent codes in BW Help.

    Hey, I just found a reason to clone BW! It's the only way I could think of to get two BW help windows, so that I can look at WTM's accent coding scheme and JDP's at the same time. BW's colouring facility does not extend to the help screens, so I can't tell which help screen belongs to which copy of BW.

    --Jim

  6. #6
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    Default

    So, now that I've also looked at the BW Leningrad image, it does seem that the accent should be Mahpak, and that the error is in fact in BHS, and has bceen carried over into digital versions. I wonder how far back into the history of the Biblia Hebraica it goes?
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  7. #7
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    Default For the sake of clarification. Is this a BibleWorks problem or a problem with the Wes

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR View Post
    So, now that I've also looked at the BW Leningrad image, it does seem that the accent should be Mahpak, and that the error is in fact in BHS, and has bceen carried over into digital versions. I wonder how far back into the history of the Biblia Hebraica it goes?
    For the sake of clarification. Is this a BibleWorks problem or a problem with the Westminster text which BibleWorks (and others) uses?

    This text began as an electronic transcription by Richard Whitaker (Princeton Seminary, New Jersey) and H. van Parunak (then at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) of the 1983 printed edition of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS). It was continued with the cooperation of Robert Kraft (University of Pennsylvania) and Emmanuel Tov (Hebrew University, Jerusalem), and completed by Prof. Alan Groves. The transcription was called the Michigan-Claremont-Westminster Electronic Hebrew Bibleand was archived at the Oxford Text Archive (OTA) in 1987. It has been variously known as the CCAT or eBHS text. Since that time, the text has been modified in many hundreds of places to conform to the photo-facsimile of the Leningrad Codex, Firkovich B19A, residing at the Russian National Library, St. Petersburg; hence the change of name.
    The Groves Center continues to scrutinize and correct this electronic text as a part of its continuing work of building morphology and syntax databases of the Hebrew Bible, since correct linguistic analysis requires an accurate text.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  8. #8
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    I don't believe it is a BibleWorks problem. The first image below is the page from my copy of BHS (1984 printing). As can be seen in the very top line (marked by a red arrow), וַיָּ֑נָס has the Athnach. Thus the error seems to have originated in the published editions of Biblia Hebraica at some point, and must have come over from there into the Westminster/CCAT/etc. digitized texts, and thus into BW and other digital resources. For the sake of comparison, I also include a snippet from the BW Leningrad MS, showing, as Jim said, the Mahpak (red arrow).

    Yaku Lee, you have made an interesting discovery!
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR View Post
    Thus the error seems to have originated in the published editions of Biblia Hebraica at some point
    Great call DavidR!,


    I now believe your opinion to be correct and I think we have a little evidence to back it up as well. Notice, 1 Chronicles 10:1 as it appeared in the BHK (Biblia Hebraica Kittel) published in 1906. It has an Atnaḥ אַתְנָ֑ח followed by a mehuppach מְהֻפָּ֤ךְ rather than the two consecutive Atnaḥ (s)the BHS now for some reason has.

    Name:  BHKchr10.1.png
Views: 278
Size:  650.8 KB

    Last edited by bkMitchell; 07-30-2016 at 07:16 AM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  10. #10
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    Well done, Brian! At this point it seems that someone should raise this with the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, or whoever has continuing responsibility for BH, before BH Quinta comes out with the error still in place. According to https://www.academic-bible.com/en/ho...ca-quinta-bhq/, BHQ Chronicles is in preparation by Zipora Talshir of the University of Beer Sheva. If no one else is interested, I'd be willing to make that contact.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

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