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Thread: What am I doing wrong in this Greek search?

  1. #1
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    Aug 2004
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    Default What am I doing wrong in this Greek search?

    Hi all,
    I would like to search for all instances of "hyios" in Mark not followed by "anthropos" (to single out 'son'-sayings, but not Son of man).
    What am I doing wrong here (BGM): 'uios *3 !antrwpos.
    Should this string not give me all instances of hyios not followed by anthropos during the next three words?

    What I get, is the same amount of verses (33) but a different number of hits (107 instead of 35) AND an asterisk and some numbers in the search window (what is that, btw?).

    Morten

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Default

    Hi Morton,

    Negative searches, especially negative range searches like yours, are often quite difficult; the intuitive solution frequently isn't correct.

    What your query is asking for is hyios followed by some word that is not anthropos in any of the 4 positions following hyios. So if a verse contained hyios followed by 4 words, and none of those 4 words was anthropos, that verse has 4 hits.
    An *n in the search results window means that BW found your result n times in that verse.

    In BW9 help, section 39 (Command Line - Examples and Shortcuts) it gives this description:
    ouk *99 oude the words ouk and oude with any 99 or fewer words intervening

    For a longer, and probably more confusing, discussion of negative range searching, see this thread: https://www.bibleworks.com/forums/sho...e-range-search

    --Jim

  3. #3
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    Default

    Thx Jim!

    I am a bit confused here. I thought it would be pretty easy to search for a word not followed by another word within three words.

    Is this not possible just as it is possible to search for words followed by another word within three verses like: 'uios *3 antropos - that gives me all instances of son followed by "man". I just want to reverse this search

    Morten

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    701

    Default Not search

    Hi Morten,

    To construct a search like this, you want to break it down into its component parts. You want to 1) find occurences of 'son', and 2) not the phrase "son of man". Therefore, you need to have two parts in your search:

    (uioj).!(uioj *1 anqrwpoj)

    (I did not use *3, since no more than the article appears between uioj and anqrwpoj in Mark.)

    Essentially, this Command Line example performs two searches and combines them. First it finds all occurrences of uioj, and then it finds all phrases "uioj *1 anqrwpoj", then it removes all of the second search results hits, leaving only the remainder of the first search results.

    There is a Command Line Examples line that shows this search syntax (for the examples. see the Tools button, then select Command Line Examples).

    Hope this helps.

    Blessings,
    Glenn
    Glenn Weaver

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Default Yes, but ...

    I would point out that Glenn's solution does not cover the case where the same verse has both
    son not followed by man
    and
    son followed by man.

    The verse would be rejected because it has son followed by man, when you may want it because it does include a son not followed by man.

    I realize that this situation does not occur in Mark -- but in other cases where one might use this kind of search it does arise.

    --Jim

  6. #6
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    Default

    Thanks, Glenn

    I see, what you mean, and I understand the command/search string. But I do find this kind of syntax rather nerdish. As a non-programmer, the syntax for this search is not one, I would have figured out myself.
    Hm, I am thinking of my poor students also. They will never understand this kind of syntax. I can explain it to them and they can copy it 1:1 but it is not intuitive to them.

    Maybe you could work out a kind of "intuitive" search dialogue box for other kind of searches than morphological ones (the search box there is perfect for newbies). Something with check boxes for the 10 most common searches or so.

    How does this sound, far out?

    Morten

  7. #7
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    Default

    Hi Jim,

    You are correct, I didn't think about verses that contain more than one occurrence of uioj. Since the search returns only verses as hits (and this is a KEY component to keep in mind), any verse that has the phrase "son of man" would be eliminated, even if there are legitimate occurrences of "son" without "man".

    Hi Morton,

    I'm sorry, but this is a rather challenging search to perform. This search does not try to find something that occurs in the text (that is an easy search), but rather tries to find something that does not occur allong with something that does occur. Since the results are returned according to verse, it is impossible for the program to list a verse as both a legitimate and an illegitiamte hit at the same time.

    Probably the best thing that you could say for your students to do with this sort of thing is to search for what you want to eliminate (the phrase "son of man"), and use the Text Coloring tool to color those search results. Then conduct a search for the word "son" and have the students look through each returned hit. The colored phrase "son of man" will make it easier for them to see if the hit is illegitimate.

    The checkboxes in the Search Results Window can be very useful for this. When you find an illegtimate hit, then uncheck the checkbox. After going through all the verses, then use the context menu's Checkbox Options to "Delete All Unchecked." This leaves you will only the legitimate hits.

    I'm sorry that there is no automatic way to do this. This really is a complex search to perform. An "intuitive" search window really wouldn't help in this case, since part of the problem is how the search results are returned to the Search Window.

    Blessings,
    Glenn
    Glenn Weaver

  8. #8

    Default

    Hi, Morten. Maybe a couple things to suggest coming from my experience trying to teach students as well...

    F1 Help: With the cursor clicked in the command line, hitting F1 will bring up the Help to the Command Line section. There is a collection of "Command Line Examples" which I think are very helpful and provide the type of examples about which you were asking.

    I think part of the challenge is the use of the particular operators rather than the actual boolean operators (AND, ANDNOT, OR...) I always have my students enable the "Code Insertion Buttons" so that they appear right below the command line. (Right click in command box, click on "Code Insertion Buttons.")

    Let's try your example in English: all instances of "son" but not "son of man"
    That actually renders quite straightforwardly: (son).!('son of man)
    The main trick there is to know to use the .! for ANDNOT and ' for phrase, and, as was pointed out earlier to figure out the right way to ask the question.
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Glatfelter Professor of Biblical Studies
    United Lutheran Seminary at Gettysburg & Philadelphia
    uls.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Default

    Hi again,

    Thanks for the help and the suggestions. I like the suggestion about using the color-options. Only one question: How do I reset the colors again? I found no suggestion here: https://www.bibleworks.com/bw9help/bwh30_Colors.htm.

    Do I need to perform the search again and color it with black? Hope there is an easy way to return to base

    Morten

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    701

    Default

    Hi Morten,

    The easiest way to reset the colors is to delete the color file. For example, if you are searching and coloring using the bnm, delete the bnm color file. The program will create a new color file for that version. (Of course, you will lose all coloring you did in that file.)

    You can also create and display a new color file. The Help file gives instructions how to work with new color files.

    Blessings,
    Glenn
    Glenn Weaver

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