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Thread: Simpler version please

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,134

    Default Sometimes we work together...

    Quote Originally Posted by johns View Post
    Exactly. And despite the huge amount of bloat added with each "upgrade", features that I used are being taken OUT!

    My favorite resource, A.T. Robertsons Word Pictures was removed in the move from 7 to 8. Licencing issues were blamed: "Sadly, due to circumstances beyond our control, our license for this text has lapsed. We are, therefore, no longer able to include this work in the program. This is not a decision on our part, but on that of the publisher that holds the copyright for that resource. We regret any inconvenience that this may cause our customers."
    I'm puzzled by why you would post this here, but I'll pass this by.

    If you were an active part of the BibleWorks forums and came here in a respectful tone, I might be willing to help you. BibleWorks no longer has Robertson's Word Pictures. You can light a fire outside their home office and start picketing, but apparently that's not going to do any difference and will be a huge waste of your time. So let's adopt a different tactic.

    If you came here saying, Word Pictures is gone and I really did appreciate using it, is there any thing users can come up with, I might suggest numerous ways you could try to fix the situation. Some of them would take a bit of time and energy. Others would be a bit easier. If you were kind, I might even tell you that you could get 2/3 of what you're looking for just by going to this website. If you said, that's fine, but that doesn't help me, I might point out that you could make HTML files into your own BibleWorks module. If you couldn't figure out how to do that, but were still willing to put in effort, I would probably help you out even more. In fact, right now I have a custom HTML module of Robertson's Word Pictures that I made from that website in less time than you've spent being angry and writing posts and I'd love to share it with you, but it doesn't even sound like you have the time of day to listen because you're too angry calling out Brian for trying to soften your tone. That's too bad because I do like sharing.

    And you can yell at me for my tone if you want. I really don't mind.

    For others who are interested, I really did make an HTML module from the website above, but I do not yet have permission to share the file. If CCEL does give permission, you will soon find the module available on the BibleWorks blog. It only contains Word Pictures vols 1-4 because, despite being very old, vols 5 and 6 still seem to be copyright protected. Olive Tree seems to realize this too as they only sell vols 1-4. [UPDATE: CCEL did not give permission.]
    Last edited by Michael Hanel; 07-07-2011 at 12:41 PM.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    Hi Johns,

    I don't want to get involved in a long dispute about the various issues that you brought up, but from my perspective as the owner of BibleWorks, I think you are being very unfair. Every one of your complaints has a reasonable answer, which we would gladly have given if you had asked.

    To begin with, the items which we have removed were removed for two reasons. In a few cases the royalties were raised several hundred percent and we had to remove the items or move them to modules. All of the other items were removed because there were copyright or licensing issues. The fact that many sites still have the full Robertson's Word Pictures has no bearing on our decision to remove it. There is a common belief that RWP is in the public domain. It is not and many sites display the text illegally. We try to obey the law. With respect to the removal of certain Bible versions, we have gone to great lengths to enable upgraders to keep the old versions, but most publishers require the removal of old versions when they produce a major update. Zondervan is no longer licensing the old NIV. Those few people still selling it are doing so under an old contract and when the contract expires, they will have to stop selling it. The same is true of the new NAB. I don't understand why you feel the need to attack us for complying with licensing requirements.

    With regard to bloat, one reason for what you perceive as bloat is that we usually comply with users requests to keep old features around when we add new ones. And we don't add features haphazardly. In most cases new features and databases are added because users have requested them. I don't think there is any bloat in our new release. Every feature is there for a reason and every feature meets a need. You castigate us for removing things and then castigate us again for not removing things. To be honest I am not sure what we can do to make you happy. But we will keep trying.

    Mike Bushell
    BibleWorks
    Mike,

    This is a very reasonable and gracious reply. Licensing restrictions are certainly beyond your control, and Bibleworks has always done as much as it can to help users avoid loss.
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    Hi Johns,

    I don't want to get involved in a long dispute about the various issues that you brought up, but from my perspective as the owner of BibleWorks, I think you are being very unfair. Every one of your complaints has a reasonable answer, which we would gladly have given if you had asked.
    Sorry Mike if it appears that I just posted my complaints before asking. I did make an attempt to seek help here on this forum back when I was having difficulty installing Bibleworks 8 on a notebook computer. If you search you will find my posts, and you will not find any response. This is why I do not bring questions or seek help here on this forum. I tried, and didn't get any help in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    There is a common belief that RWP is in the public domain. It is not and many sites display the text illegally. We try to obey the law ... I don't understand why you feel the need to attack us for complying with licensing requirements.
    I do not know the status of licensing and or copyright on Word Pictures, nor do I care. If the copyright holder wants me to pay extra to use it, I would gladly do so. I was not given that option on the Bibleworks platform.

    I see numerous other works sold as modules at extra cost. Are you telling me that the copyright holders on this particular work refuse to allow this? I have Word Pictures in my Libronix/Logos library. It is also available for purchase on the Logos website. And interestingly enough, it is also available on the Wordsearch platform which BW now appears to have some sort of partnership with. Yet you maintain it cannot be licensed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    I don't think there is any bloat in our new release. Every feature is there for a reason and every feature meets a need.
    The system requirements for BibleWorks 8 are:
    - Minimum of 128 MB RAM
    - Minimum of 700 MB hard drive space free (7 GB for full installation)

    The system requirements for BibleWorks 9 are:
    - Minimum 512 MB RAM
    - Minimum of 1 GB hard drive space free (15 GB for full install)

    Looks to me like the size of a full install just DOUBLED.

    As I mentioned previously, and as I attempted to get help with here in the past, the monstrous size of the software would not be so bad if it were possible to install only the features that were desired by the end user. It used to be possible (version 7 and prior) to locate some of the large files on removable media or on different hard drives. It was easy to do by just editing an "INI" file. In version 8, weird things go on that are not documented. If you move a folder and edit the path in the INI file, the program rewrites the INI file at the next restart.

    The online update facility is also broken for anyone who wants to do a partial install. There is no way in BW8 to recieve updates and/or patches for only the installed modules. To use the update facility, you are forced to constantly sort through resources in dozens of different languages. The only way to make them go away is to install them.

    Was I supposed to humbly ask for help before complaining? If so I apologize. But when I humbly asked for help on here, nobody answered.

    But I know I have your attention now, so please understand that not all of your users are PHD candidates that speak fluent Greek and Hebrew. Those users seem to be represented well here on this forum. But there are others using the program also (such as myself, and the original poster of this thread) who doesn't want to take up 15GB on their hard drive for the Bible software and a few study tools that they would CHOOSE to install.

    Thanks for reading,
    John

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,134

    Default

    Johns,

    Unless you've used another alias on the Forums, you've only posted one other time here. You asked about installing BibleWorks 7 on a second drive because you were dealing with hard drive space. You expressed frustration there too that people weren't answering your question. I did chime in and said that you should probably direct your questions to BibleWorks directly. I don't know whether you did or not. The reason questions don't always get answered here is because people don't always know the answers and if they don't know them, they usually don't reply.

    I hear you on the hard drive space issue. I have a laptop that's from 2007. That doesn't sound that old, but in computer years, that is. In order to install BibleWorks 9 on it, I had to go through and delete some programs I don't use any more. But it is possible to do an installation that is much smaller than the full 15 GB. The main "bloat" as you call it, is from high resolution images of the Greek manuscripts. If these images were not such high quality, people would complain. BibleWorks is going to offend someone no matter what they did, and I'm glad they chose this route. If the space is too big, you don't need to install the images. Or if you do install them, just delete them right away. It seems to me like you'd be missing out on a lot of good stuff, but if you're constrained by your hard drive space, well then that's that.

    If you get annoyed by lists of updates in the BibleWorks updater that you don't like, you can have them removed from the list (without having to download them) by hiding them (someone asked about this and it was answered here.)
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  5. #15

    Default

    I personally did not find the installation process for BW9 to be too difficult or time consuming. There are quite a few English translations I don't bother with, and it's easy to un/check what you want. Other than Greek, Hebrew (and Syriac? I can't recall), none of the other foreign languages are installed by default.
    As noted by Mike, the big space consumer in BW9 are the manuscripts. Those can easily not be installed with just a single click.
    As you go through the custom installation process, you are provided with a running account of how much free space you have and how much will be required with the choices you have made.
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Glatfelter Professor of Biblical Studies
    United Lutheran Seminary at Gettysburg & Philadelphia
    uls.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MGVH View Post
    As you go through the custom installation process, you are provided with a running account of how much free space you have and how much will be required with the choices you have made.
    That is helpful information which does make the install custom, indeed.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3

    Default Well I understand, but I do echo a bit of the frustration

    First,

    I love the upgrades you are doing to the product! I will not complain about getting more for my $.

    I am disappointed at the NIV changes coming. While as a long time user I will be preserved, Nelson Publishing is missing the boat here. Many people still use the older NIV and in some groups they do not recognize the newer NIV as a good translation. So how can i do criticism between the old and the new as a new purchaser of bible study software - i cannot except by having the old one physically open. That is just a poor decision. (and i do realize it is most likely out of your hands).

    I also would like to see the "Message" added to the available translations - again not because i believe it is a great translation or not; but because many are using it and having the ability to talk directly to those people is one thing that a great tool like Bibleworks enables.

    Lester

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by madmagi View Post
    First,

    I love the upgrades you are doing to the product! I will not complain about getting more for my $.

    I am disappointed at the NIV changes coming. While as a long time user I will be preserved, Nelson Publishing is missing the boat here. Many people still use the older NIV and in some groups they do not recognize the newer NIV as a good translation. So how can i do criticism between the old and the new as a new purchaser of bible study software - i cannot except by having the old one physically open. That is just a poor decision. (and i do realize it is most likely out of your hands).
    Lester,

    Again to make it clear. If you are brand-new to BibleWorks, when you purchase BibleWorks 9, you will only get the NIV 2011. If you are upgrading to BibleWorks 9 from an older package, you will still get the old NIV in addition to the NIV 2011. [Reading again I see that you're saying you are a new user. Sorry if that's the case. I was confused]

    I agree this kind of stinks, but if you want to voice your complaint, take it to Zondervan, the distributor of the NIV in America. BibleWorks can't change their policy because it's dictated by the license with Zondervan.
    Last edited by Michael Hanel; 07-07-2011 at 11:55 AM.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  9. #19

    Default Bibleworks 9

    Quote Originally Posted by bkMitchell View Post
    Hello Johns,

    Okay, I will attempt to answer your questions:


    If, you are upgrading to version 9 you get to keep NIV 1984, and the TNIV. And, I believe this is do to much pleading and deal making on BWs part.
    Check it out!
    (link)


    Moving on to you 2nd comment/question...

    Logos, and Accordance (the competition sort of) already have gone mobile. So, that's not much of a prediction. But, I'll give you credit for trying.

    Okay, next question...


    Nice, guess but the official response is...
    Now, for the final comment:

    For statistical evidence of English interpretations(or translations) used by BibleWorks users check out the following polls: (poll one) and (poll two)

    But, smile you can still "Focus on the text" and your loved translations, too as you get to keep them. But, please keep in mind the following words of truth...

    "The real New testament is the Greek New Testament. The English is only a translation of the New testament, not the actual New Testament."
    A. T. Robertson

    "The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them."
    Westminster Confession of Faith
    Thou hast persuadeth me to be a BW 9 user!

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Lester,

    If you want both the 1984 and 2011 editions of the NIV on BW, I assume you could purchase BW8 now ($349 from CBD), and then purchase the $20 upgrade to BW9. You would only be paying an additional $10 to get the 1984 NIV to go with all that comes with BW9.
    καὶ ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀπέθανεν ἵνα οἱ ζῶντες μηκέτι ἑαυτοῖς ζῶσιν, ἀλλὰ τῷ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ἀποθανόντι καὶ ἐγερθέντι.

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