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Thread: OT quotes in the NT in Matthew

  1. #11

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    WRT Jesus' quotation of Ps. 22:1 on the cross specifically, I don't see why one would think it unlikely that Jesus would have quoted anything but Hebrew. I said Aramaic because the Greek text uses the word sabacqani, representing yntqbv. And the verb qbv is Aramaic, not Hebrew (as seen in TAR Ps 22:1; the Hebrew text of Ps 22:1, of course, has yntbz[).

    Yes- but I think, off the top of my head, that the "My God my God/ Eli Eli" part of the quote is from the Hebrew.

    Let me know!
    a;koue( VIsrah,l( ku,rioj o` qeo.j h`mw/n ku,rioj ei-j evstin( kai. avgaph,seij ku,rion to.n qeo,n sou evx o[lhj th/j kardi,aj sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j yuch/j sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j dianoi,aj sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j ivscu,oj souĊ

    עשׁה שׁלום במרומיו הוא יעשׂה שׁלום עלינו ועל כל ישׂראל ואמרו אמן׃

    "Will you rise like a lion in the morning sun or will you just lay there bleeding? When the time has come, return to the Kingdom, close my eyes and be screaming freedom!" - Matisyahu

  2. #12

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    (File under the category of "Dangerous to ask someone who has written a dissertation on the topic")
    I have been trying to update and rewrite my 1996 dissertation on Psalm 22 (LXX 21) and the Crucifixion of Jesus for T&T Clark. (Table of Contents and some snippets linked here. I was supposed to have completed it last year, so I'm running behind...)

    I'm omitting pages worth of footnotes, but some general comments:

    In Mark 15:33-37 and Matthew 27.45-50, it is immediately striking that no acknowledgement is made that Jesus is citing Scripture. The citation of Ps 22:2a is attempted in Aramaic in Mark and in Aramaic/Hebrew in Matthew, but neither of their citations matches any known text of Ps 22:2a, and the ambiguities involved in transliterating resulted in the proliferation of textual variants. [I would surmise that Matthew's use of the Hebrew eli, eli (instead of Mark's Aramaic eloi, eloi) is an attempt to help make clear the connection to the confusion with Eli-jah.) Furthermore, neither of the Greek translations Mark or Matthew provide match any known Greek version of the Psalm. Most notably, neither include the additional phrase found in LXX Ps 21:2a, prosches moi. So far, therefore, we can conclude that though Ps 22:2a was undoubtedly in mind, Mark and Matthew were not concerned to identify Jesus’ cry as an explicit and exact quotation of any particular textual tradition. They certainly do not draw on the LXX.

    Codex Bezae does provide a precise transliteration of the Hebrew in both Mt and Mk, but the Greek translations of the phrase wander off on their own path!
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Glatfelter Professor of Biblical Studies
    United Lutheran Seminary at Gettysburg & Philadelphia
    uls.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  3. #13
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    I don't know if it's because anglo Greek scholars can't pronounce Greek properly, or what, but the fact is, the Greek of Matthew 27:46 is a perfect transliteration of the Hebrew of Psalm 22:1. The silent ayin is not carried over, which is perfectly acceptable. It's a perfect transliteration.

    For anyone to assert that Matthew is not quoting the Hebrew directly flies in the face of all the actual evidence.

  4. #14

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    In Mark 15:33-37 and Matthew 27.45-50, it is immediately striking that no acknowledgement is made that Jesus is citing Scripture. The citation of Ps 22:2a is attempted in Aramaic in Mark and in Aramaic/Hebrew in Matthew, but neither of their citations matches any known text of Ps 22:2a, and the ambiguities involved in transliterating resulted in the proliferation of textual variants. [I would surmise that Matthew's use of the Hebrew eli, eli (instead of Mark's Aramaic eloi, eloi) is an attempt to help make clear the connection to the confusion with Eli-jah.) Furthermore, neither of the Greek translations Mark or Matthew provide match any known Greek version of the Psalm. Most notably, neither include the additional phrase found in LXX Ps 21:2a, prosches moi. So far, therefore, we can conclude that though Ps 22:2a was undoubtedly in mind, Mark and Matthew were not concerned to identify Jesus’ cry as an explicit and exact quotation of any particular textual tradition. They certainly do not draw on the LXX.

    Thanks for sharing! I agree.
    a;koue( VIsrah,l( ku,rioj o` qeo.j h`mw/n ku,rioj ei-j evstin( kai. avgaph,seij ku,rion to.n qeo,n sou evx o[lhj th/j kardi,aj sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j yuch/j sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j dianoi,aj sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j ivscu,oj souĊ

    עשׁה שׁלום במרומיו הוא יעשׂה שׁלום עלינו ועל כל ישׂראל ואמרו אמן׃

    "Will you rise like a lion in the morning sun or will you just lay there bleeding? When the time has come, return to the Kingdom, close my eyes and be screaming freedom!" - Matisyahu

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    I don't know if it's because anglo Greek scholars can't pronounce Greek properly, or what, but the fact is, the Greek of Matthew 27:46 is a perfect transliteration of the Hebrew of Psalm 22:1. The silent ayin is not carried over, which is perfectly acceptable. It's a perfect transliteration.

    For anyone to assert that Matthew is not quoting the Hebrew directly flies in the face of all the actual evidence.

    Yes, but the verb "forsaken me", I believe, is Aramaic.
    a;koue( VIsrah,l( ku,rioj o` qeo.j h`mw/n ku,rioj ei-j evstin( kai. avgaph,seij ku,rion to.n qeo,n sou evx o[lhj th/j kardi,aj sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j yuch/j sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j dianoi,aj sou kai. evx o[lhj th/j ivscu,oj souĊ

    עשׁה שׁלום במרומיו הוא יעשׂה שׁלום עלינו ועל כל ישׂראל ואמרו אמן׃

    "Will you rise like a lion in the morning sun or will you just lay there bleeding? When the time has come, return to the Kingdom, close my eyes and be screaming freedom!" - Matisyahu

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJayOneill View Post
    Yes, but the verb "forsaken me", I believe, is Aramaic.
    Look at Psalm 22:1. Is that verb Aramaic or Hebrew in Psalm 22:1?

    Let me save you the trouble... The word in Psalm 22:1 is Hebrew, not Aramaic. The supposed etymology of the word doesn't change the fact that it's a Hebrew word in Psalm 22:1. Nor does it change the fact that the Greek of Matthew 27:46 is a perfect transliteration of the Hebrew of Psalm 22:1.
    Last edited by Adelphos; 04-11-2009 at 02:41 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    Look at Psalm 22:1. Is that verb Aramaic or Hebrew in Psalm 22:1?

    Let me save you the trouble... The word in Psalm 22:1 is Hebrew, not Aramaic. The supposed etymology of the word doesn't change the fact that it's a Hebrew word in Psalm 22:1. Nor does it change the fact that the Greek of Matthew 27:46 is a perfect transliteration of the Hebrew of Psalm 22:1.
    Just for the sake of getting Apples to Apples, I'm not sure I'm reading you right Adelphos.

    This is the text I'm reading of Matthew:
    BGT Mat 27:46 ηλι ηλι λεμα σαβαχθανι;

    This is the MT text of Psa 22:2
    WTT Psa 22:2 אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי

    Now clearly the last word of the Greek is NOT a transliteration of the last word in the Hebrew, right?? Or am I completely missing something. (This is to say nothing of the interpretation of these passages, I'm just not sure everyone is on the same page with this point.)
    Last edited by Michael Hanel; 04-11-2009 at 02:58 PM.
    Michael Hanel
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    Now clearly the last word of the Greek is NOT a transliteration of the last word in the Hebrew, right??
    If you're talking about the word sabachthani, then yes, it is a perfect transliteration of the Hebrew.

    As I said, the Ayin is silent and doesn't carry over, which is perfectly in accord with the rules of transliteration.

    The Theta in the Greek mirrors the dagesh in the Tav. That Alpha after the Beta in the Greek mirrors the sheva under the Bet in the Hebrew. And so on.

    The transliteration is perfect.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    If you're talking about the word sabachthani, then yes, it is a perfect transliteration of the Hebrew.

    As I said, the Ayin is silent and doesn't carry over, which is perfectly in accord with the rules of transliteration.

    The Theta in the Greek mirrors the dagesh in the Tav. That Alpha after the Beta in the Greek mirrors the sheva under the Bet in the Hebrew. And so on.

    The transliteration is perfect.
    Hmm, well I don't know the conventions of Hebrew transliteration into Greek, so this all seems a bit odd. Where did the CHI come from in the Greek transliteration? I.e. what sound is that transliterating?
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    Hmm, well I don't know the conventions of Hebrew transliteration into Greek, so this all seems a bit odd. Where did the CHI come from in the Greek transliteration? I.e. what sound is that transliterating?
    It's nothing more than a glottal or hard stop in the speech which would have naturally carried over into the Greek. There is no equivalent transliteration to account for the ach sounds that occur in certain Hebrew combinations.

    So while the chi is not literally represented in the Hebrew, it can easily be accounted for phonetically. If someone spoke that word to me in Hebrew and asked me to transliterate it, I would come up with the same thing.

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