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Thread: Differing results on lemma searches

  1. #1

    Question Differing results on lemma searches

    I've been puzzled for awhile as to why my identical versions of BW9 on two pc's give different lemma-search results. I think I've figured out the problem, but not the reason or the solution.

    I think what's happening is that I do a lemma-search on a Hebrew noun on one pc, and it gives me all the different occurences of that noun. But I think that what the other pc does is give me all the occurrences of that root, including verbs and other forms.

    I'm not aware of changing the configuration of either, so I don't know why they'd differ. Regardless, where can I look to be sure both only finds forms of the lemma within the grammatical category of noun, verb, adjective, etc.?
    Dan Phillips
    Books:Web presence:
    tfo+[]l;w> hw"hy> tr:AT-ta, vArd>li Abb'l. !ykihe ar"z>[, yKi

    s `jP'(v.miW qxo laer"f.yIB. dMel;l.W

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    392

    Default

    I don't know either why you'd get different results, but the way to restrict searches to a grammatical category is simple. On the command line, input your search string, place the cursor at the right end of the string (necessary when searching in Hebrew), then type @. This should produce a drop-down list of parts of speech. (If it doesn't, right-click in the command line, and be sure Command Line Morphology Help is selected.) Then just type n for noun, v for verb, etc. If that's all the specificity you want, type * to have all the remaining possible morphology codes (for gender, number, etc.) included in the search; or keep typing codes to get more specific.

    There can still be some problems with this. Searching for the root DBR with noun specified as the grammatical category will return both dabar, word, and deber, plague. But it will eliminate all instances of dibber, speak.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    839

    Default WTM Search Differences

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Phillips View Post
    I've been puzzled for awhile as to why my identical versions of BW9 on two pc's give different lemma-search results. I think I've figured out the problem, but not the reason or the solution.

    I think what's happening is that I do a lemma-search on a Hebrew noun on one pc, and it gives me all the different occurences of that noun. But I think that what the other pc does is give me all the occurrences of that root, including verbs and other forms.

    I'm not aware of changing the configuration of either, so I don't know why they'd differ. Regardless, where can I look to be sure both only finds forms of the lemma within the grammatical category of noun, verb, adjective, etc.?
    Dan, make sure that the qere and kethib settings are the same for the two searches you are comparing. Keep in mind that the GSE and the BW main display have their own QK settings. We will probably have the GSE search update the main window settings when it is run to avoid problems like this. But that has its own set of problems. Just be aware that there are 4 combinations (on-off, off-off,on-off,off-on) so you could get 4 different answers for the search depending on the SETTINGs.

    You should also confirm that the two versions are running the WTM versions.

    Mike

  4. #4

    Default

    Thank you both. I don't do much command-line searching, it baffles me. What I do is right-click the word and select "Search on lemma."

    Pretty sure they're both WTT.

    I'll compare the Q-K settings, thanks!
    Dan Phillips
    Books:Web presence:
    tfo+[]l;w> hw"hy> tr:AT-ta, vArd>li Abb'l. !ykihe ar"z>[, yKi

    s `jP'(v.miW qxo laer"f.yIB. dMel;l.W

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Phillips View Post
    Thank you both. I don't do much command-line searching, it baffles me. What I do is right-click the word and select "Search on lemma."

    Pretty sure they're both WTT.

    I'll compare the Q-K settings, thanks!
    A couple of suggestions here. For one thing, WTT (which isn't analyzed morphologically) doesn't have lemma searching. I think what happens is that if WTT is the selected search version and you do a right-click lemma search, BW will briefly switch to WTM to do the lemma search, then show the results list in WTT.

    Try this: change the search version to WTM. Right click on a word whose root you know can be construed as either noun or verb (one of the ones that's been giving you problems), and do Search on Lemma. On the command line, the root should appear followed by @ and *. This means "search on all grammatical forms of this," and the results list will show the results of such a search. Click at the right end of the search string on the command line and backspace to delete the *. Then the drop-down list will appear, and you can select n for noun or v for verb, etc.

    I love doing right-click lemma searches--so fast, so easy. But in Hebrew, they can lead to mixed results, as you're seeing. Learning how to add a morphology code at the end of the search string to limit it to nouns or verbs feels to me like making sure I'm using more of the functionality of BW for which I have paid some serious bucks. (Thrift is a virtue, right? )

    Of course, check the Q-K settings too, as Mike recommends. This can at least give you consistent results on both machines.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    201

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    I agree that the right click lemma search is the optimal use of BW's impressive functionality.
    Two additional things that can affect the range of the search:
    1. If your Hebrew search is vowel-sensitive you will frequently get fewer hits; the results are more likely to be closely related to the word you clicked on, but will exclude potentially interesting results.
    2. If you accidentally, or on purpose, choose the option immediately below "Search on Lemma", which is "Search on Homonym", the results are limited to words that are tagged as belonging to the same HALOT homonym.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR View Post
    A couple of suggestions here. For one thing, WTT (which isn't analyzed morphologically) doesn't have lemma searching. I think what happens is that if WTT is the selected search version and you do a right-click lemma search, BW will briefly switch to WTM to do the lemma search, then show the results list in WTT.

    Try this: change the search version to WTM. .
    I think you're right, and I see the sense of what you're saying. That's probably what I'll do if I see differing results and am unable to figure out why.

    But WTM is so nasty! It's like finding Waldo, only less fun.
    Dan Phillips
    Books:Web presence:
    tfo+[]l;w> hw"hy> tr:AT-ta, vArd>li Abb'l. !ykihe ar"z>[, yKi

    s `jP'(v.miW qxo laer"f.yIB. dMel;l.W

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Phillips View Post
    But WTM is so nasty! It's like finding Waldo, only less fun.
    Yeah, I'm with you on that. However, there is a somewhat obscure option that helps with this. In the Tools menu, select Options, then Browse Window Configuration Options, then uncheck "Automatically make morphology versions display versions." That will let you select WTM as the search version, but still do right-click lemma searches from within WTT. The lemma will still appear on the command line, and the actual search will be done in WTM, but it's nastiness will never offend your eyes.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  9. #9

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    Thanks, David, I'll try that right away.

    Meanwhile, I think I figured out what my problem was. On my home PC, "vowel point sensitive" was not checked. I bet that's it... maybe?
    Dan Phillips
    Books:Web presence:
    tfo+[]l;w> hw"hy> tr:AT-ta, vArd>li Abb'l. !ykihe ar"z>[, yKi

    s `jP'(v.miW qxo laer"f.yIB. dMel;l.W

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