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Thread: BibleWorks and the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG)

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    Default BibleWorks and the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG)

    I was wondering if there was any way for BibleWorks to integrate with the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG). If so, what kind of features would be available within this integration? A definitive response would be greatly appreciated!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmeab View Post
    I was wondering if there was any way for BibleWorks to integrate with the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae (TLG). If so, what kind of features would be available within this integration? A definitive response would be greatly appreciated!
    They would largely function as parallel, but separate resources. You can use them separately both to their strengths, but they don't interact with one another natively. Do you have university (or personal) access to the full version of TLG via the web or are you using a TLG CD via a program like Diogenes or something else? The free version of TLG provides different levels of access to the materials there. This isn't the complete answer to your question, but it'd be helpful to hear about what kind of things you would want the integration to do? Do you just want to be able to do a word search? Yes, you can do that kind of thing. But anything beyond that would be a bit more difficult.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    They would largely function as parallel, but separate resources. You can use them separately both to their strengths, but they don't interact with one another natively. Do you have university (or personal) access to the full version of TLG via the web or are you using a TLG CD via a program like Diogenes or something else? The free version of TLG provides different levels of access to the materials there. This isn't the complete answer to your question, but it'd be helpful to hear about what kind of things you would want the integration to do? Do you just want to be able to do a word search? Yes, you can do that kind of thing. But anything beyond that would be a bit more difficult.
    Thank you, Michael. Your response and questions are very helpful. I do have access to the full version of the online TLG; I'm definitely thankful for this interface, but I'm looking for something more sophisticated. The primary thing that I'd like to do is be able to search for pronouns that are specifically referring to a generic noun (i.e., as opposed to referring to a general concept/idea or a proper noun). I'm assuming that this is impossible and that no Bible software has this capability, but I wanted to double check since it would save me a significant amount of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmeab View Post
    Thank you, Michael. Your response and questions are very helpful. I do have access to the full version of the online TLG; I'm definitely thankful for this interface, but I'm looking for something more sophisticated. The primary thing that I'd like to do is be able to search for pronouns that are specifically referring to a generic noun (i.e., as opposed to referring to a general concept/idea or a proper noun). I'm assuming that this is impossible and that no Bible software has this capability, but I wanted to double check since it would save me a significant amount of time.
    Can you give a few examples of what you mean by generic noun? I think I understand what you're saying, but not quite sure. At least I've heard generic being used in a variety of contexts, and I'm not sure what you're trying to differentiate. And is this search what you want to do in a Bible software program or is this related to your question about integrating the BW and TLG?

    If you have BW9, do you know anything about the external links manager? This would be the main method I know of to use BW to call up a search via TLG. It sends the query via the formula to the TLG site via your web browser and returns a hit. It is a link between the programs, but if you use TLG a lot, it's only a slightly faster way than loading the search yourself (i.e. it saves you the steps of loading the browser, navigating to the TLG search page, and typing in the word you want to search).
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    Can you give a few examples of what you mean by generic noun? I think I understand what you're saying, but not quite sure. At least I've heard generic being used in a variety of contexts, and I'm not sure what you're trying to differentiate. And is this search what you want to do in a Bible software program or is this related to your question about integrating the BW and TLG?
    So I'm trying to identify all instances where a demonstrative pronoun is referring to a noun that differs in gender. For instance, can a neuter demonstrative pronoun (τουτο) refer to a feminine or masculine noun? If so, how frequently does this occur? I would like to do this in the TLG, but also in Scripture and other texts as well. I hope this description clarifies. Thank you so much for the help that you have already provided, but I am eager to know if this capability is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmeab View Post
    So I'm trying to identify all instances where a demonstrative pronoun is referring to a noun that differs in gender. For instance, can a neuter demonstrative pronoun (τουτο) refer to a feminine or masculine noun? If so, how frequently does this occur? I would like to do this in the TLG, but also in Scripture and other texts as well. I hope this description clarifies. Thank you so much for the help that you have already provided, but I am eager to know if this capability is possible.
    Well to answer your more general question then, no I don't know of any quick or easy way to do that kind of a search. You need something that does pronoun-antecedent tagging and I don't know of any such database in any program. Even if there were such a database, it would be imperfect anyway since there isn't always a clear-cut answer at times as to what the antecedent is. And as far as tagging goes, you're not going to find any corpus of ancient language tagged in greater diversity and detail than the Biblical texts.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmeab View Post
    So I'm trying to identify all instances where a demonstrative pronoun is referring to a noun that differs in gender. For instance, can a neuter demonstrative pronoun (τουτο) refer to a feminine or masculine noun? If so, how frequently does this occur? I would like to do this in the TLG, but also in Scripture and other texts as well....
    Here, perhaps, is an example of something similar to what you're considering: καὶ ποιήσας φραγέλλιον ἐκ σχοινίων πάντας ἐξέβαλεν ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ τά τε πρόβατα καὶ τοὺς βόας.... (John 2:15a BGT). Does this mean "Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle" (NRSV); or "And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen" (ESV)? In the latter rendering Jesus seems to be using the whip on the people, in the former only on the animals.

    The question turns, in part, on whether πάντας (masculine accusative plural, "all") can refer to the πρόβατα (neuter accusative plural, "sheep") and βόας (masculine accusative plural, "cattle/oxen") together, or must refer back to the human beings mentioned in the preceding verse. IOW, can an adjective (not a demonstrative pronoun in this instance) refer to a noun of a differing gender (a masculine adjective covering both a neuter and a masculine noun)?

    N. Clayton Croy (author of the excellent Primer of Biblical Greek), in a recent detailed grammatical analysis, confirms the former interpretation. He finds (1) that πάντας can indeed grammatically cover the sheep and the cattle without including the people; and also (2) that the common way of using the τε ... καί construction employed here is to identify the members of a previously mentioned group, so that τά τε πρόβατα καὶ τοὺς βόας specifies what is meant by πάντας. (N. Clayton Croy, "The Messianic Whippersnapper: Did Jesus Use a Whip on People in the Temple (John 2:15)?" Journal of Biblical Literature vol. 128, no. 3 (2009), pp. 553-566; for a fuller study on the whole incident, see my just-published essay "Jesus's Action in the Temple," in Struggles for Shalom: Peace and Violence Across the Testaments, ed. Laura L. Brenneman and Brad D. Schantz (Wipf and Stock, 2014), pp. 179-190.)

    So, to your question, shmeab: Yes, even in Greek, in which gender agreement is kept very tight, there can occasionally be instances in which it is violated. However, these are generally determined by rhetorical considerations more than grammatical ones, and as Michael indicates, grammatical databases are probably not going to be searchable for this. As Croy puts it, "The grammatical 'rules' in such cases are complex, if we can speak of rules at all." There is some detailed discussion in works that are available in BW, such as A. T. Robertson's Grammar of the Greek New Testament, pp. 412-413, 655 (cited by Croy).
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

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