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Thread: two questions on copying/viewing Hebrew

  1. #1
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    Nov 2004
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    Default two questions on copying/viewing Hebrew

    I have two small "how to fix" questions.
    1. Whether it is in an MS Word document, or in Daily Light in BibleWorks 9 itself, I often see rectangular boxes around characters. This happens especially with final forms like Kaph and Pe, but I see it around the Lamed in אֱלֹהֵיכֶֽם
    I don't see the box in this message, but I see it in MS Word 2002 right now. This was copied as part of a phrase from Lev 19:2 WTT. I don't know if I set something to trigger this, but I have not done much to set the way that Hebrew appears since I last rebuilt my .ini file after replacing it with the default one. I do display Hebrew in a larger sized font than many would (20 pt.) but that doesn't explain this oddity to me. Has anyone else ever seen this?

    2. I've now learned some about word processing software and SBL Hebrew here and by experimenting. However, I'm still trying to figure out how to mix a line of Hebrew and English. I pasted a line of Hebrew from WTT Lev 19:2 into MS Word. While Hebrew normally is aligned right, I had to align it left to make it follow immediately after an English word. However, no matter what I do, I can't get the English word that comes after the phrase to show up on the same line as the last Hebrew word. If I try to get it there, there is no space between the Hebrew and the English and if I hit the space bar, the Hebrew word moves right, rather than a space appearing between the Hebrew and the English. (In fact, I've experienced oddities in trying to insert anything between Hebrew words or put blanks on the left or right of a Hebrew word or copy one Hebrew word out of a group of Hebrew words.) Any suggestions as to how to accomplish this simple goal of having Hebrew followed by English on one line? Thanks.

    Ken

  2. #2
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    May 2010
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    284

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    1. I'm not sure, but your problem could derive from the auto-correct, "smart quotes," or similar functions of MS Word that change characters into something else altogether.

    2. That can be a real headache, but I've found better success by typing and/or copying into the BibleWorks editor, and then when I am finished, copying it from the BW editor into MS Word.
    καὶ ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀπέθανεν ἵνα οἱ ζῶντες μηκέτι ἑαυτοῖς ζῶσιν, ἀλλὰ τῷ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ἀποθανόντι καὶ ἐγερθέντι.

  3. #3
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    Apr 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I have two small "how to fix" questions.

    2. I've now learned some about word processing software and SBL Hebrew here and by experimenting. However, I'm still trying to figure out how to mix a line of Hebrew and English. I pasted a line of Hebrew from WTT Lev 19:2 into MS Word. While Hebrew normally is aligned right, I had to align it left to make it follow immediately after an English word. However, no matter what I do, I can't get the English word that comes after the phrase to show up on the same line as the last Hebrew word. If I try to get it there, there is no space between the Hebrew and the English and if I hit the space bar, the Hebrew word moves right, rather than a space appearing between the Hebrew and the English. (In fact, I've experienced oddities in trying to insert anything between Hebrew words or put blanks on the left or right of a Hebrew word or copy one Hebrew word out of a group of Hebrew words.) Any suggestions as to how to accomplish this simple goal of having Hebrew followed by English on one line? Thanks.

    Ken
    I use MS Word 2003, and one work-around I found is to type a space after the first letter of the English word, then re-type that letter after the space, and delete the original first letter:
    HEBREWbe holy
    HEBREWb e holy
    HEBREWb be holy
    HEBREW be holy

    Mark Eddy

  4. #4
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    Apr 2012
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    I've found that the easiest thing for me is to type a comma and then the following word, paste in the Hebrew word before the comma, and then delete the comma. It's the same principle as Mark's.

    Donald COBB
    Aix-en-Provence, France

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    382

    Default Alternative word processor

    I'm always hesitant to do this, because I know this forum is not for promoting other software. However, for people who want to do even halfway-scholarly work involving Greek, Hebrew, and other non-Roman languages, MS Word is not the best word processor to use. Instead, you might consider looking at Nota Bene. In NB, mixing English and Hebrew on the same line and seeing vowel points and final letters, etc., is absolutely trivial. Press Ctrl+Shift+H and you're typing Hebrew; press Ctrl+Shift+R and you're typing in the Roman alphabet (English, French, Spanish, German, whatever). You can type in Greek or Cyrillic-alphabet languages just as easily.

    I'm attaching two small demo files. I copied Psalm 104:24 into Nota Bene using the BW popup copy utility and did a small amount of format cleanup (mainly type size; of course, the Masoretic cantillation marks could have been excluded using the methods suggested in reply to Duncan's other post). Then I typed a couple of English sentences. In the first one, I typed in a Hebrew phrase; in the second I copied a phrase in from BW using ordinary copy and paste (again with some minor formatting cleanup). Note that final forms and vowels can be either typed or pasted perfectly. I printed it out to PDF format for viewing; I also saved it as RTF, which I then imported into MS Word and saved as .DOC.

    Nota Bene is currently in a very late beta stage of version 10, updated for contemporary versions of Windows. It is much more than a multilingual word processor: it manages bibliography (both a database of books and articles, and proper formatting for various publishers' styles) and research notes as well. It is designed for use by writers and scholars, not business people, and has a multitude of features appropriate for such use.

    I apologize if this is off-subject for this forum. I do hope, though, that the information will be useful for Duncan and others.
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    Last edited by DavidR; 04-21-2014 at 12:29 PM.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    128

    Default Question for David

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidR View Post
    I'm always hesitant to do this, because I know this forum is not for promoting other software. However, for people who want to do even halfway-scholarly work involving Greek, Hebrew, and other non-Roman languages, MS Word is not the best word processor to use. Instead, you might consider looking at Nota Bene. In NB, mixing English and Hebrew on the same line and seeing vowel points and final letters, etc., is absolutely trivial. Press Ctrl+Shift+H and you're typing Hebrew; press Ctrl+Shift+R and you're typing in the Roman alphabet (English, French, Spanish, German, whatever). You can type in Greek or Cyrillic-alphabet languages just as easily.

    I'm attaching two small demo files. I copied Psalm 104:24 into Nota Bene using the BW popup copy utility and did a small amount of format cleanup (mainly type size; of course, the Masoretic cantillation marks could have been excluded using the methods suggested in reply to Duncan's other post). Then I typed a couple of English sentences. In the first one, I typed in a Hebrew phrase; in the second I copied a phrase in from BW using ordinary copy and paste (again with some minor formatting cleanup). Note that final forms and vowels can be either typed or pasted perfectly. I printed it out to PDF format for viewing; I also saved it as RTF, which I then imported into MS Word and saved as .DOC.

    Nota Bene is currently in a very late beta stage of version 10, updated for contemporary versions of Windows. It is much more than a multilingual word processor: it manages bibliography (both a database of books and articles, and proper formatting for various publishers' styles) and research notes as well. It is designed for use by writers and scholars, not business people, and has a multitude of features appropriate for such use.

    I apologize if this is off-subject for this forum. I do hope, though, that the information will be useful for Duncan and others.
    Hello David,

    I've just had another look at Nota Bene Software. For Greek and Hebrew, is the Lingua Workstation necessary? Or does the Scholar's Workstation do the trick?

    Don Cobb

  7. #7
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    Mar 2009
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    382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Cobb View Post
    Hello David,

    I've just had another look at Nota Bene Software. For Greek and Hebrew, is the Lingua Workstation necessary? Or does the Scholar's Workstation do the trick?

    Don Cobb
    Don,

    The Lingua Workstation is needed for doing work in non-Roman-alphabet languages. However, I believe they are planning to change the pricing and purchasing structure when v. 10 is released in its final form. My understanding (and that's all that this is at this point) is that instead of selling various software packages, they will sell one program, and users will purchase codes to unlock the specific features they need (Greek and Hebrew, or Syriac, or Arabic, for instance). A familiar model, eh?

    NB has always been very good about making demo copies available on a trial basis, and there is a trial version of the NB 10 beta available here. It's good for 30 days, and will not print, but is otherwise fully functional. For general information about what NB is and does, go here. For information specific to the new v. 10, go here.

    Again, I feel a bit apologetic for giving info about other software here. My defense is (1) I have no financial stake in Nota Bene; (2) NB does not compete with BibleWorks, but instead works well in tandem with it; (3) we do discuss interoperability between BW and Word here, so I feel like the topic is already opened.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

  8. #8

    Default Need NB Lingua Workstation

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Cobb View Post
    I've just had another look at Nota Bene Software. For Greek and Hebrew, is the Lingua Workstation necessary? Or does the Scholar's Workstation do the trick?
    Don Cobb
    You do need the NB Lingua Workstation for Greek and Hebrew. I'm a long-time Nota Bene user and recommend it wholeheartedly.

    Dale A. Brueggemann

    כִּי עֶזְרָא הֵכִין לְבָבוֹ לִדְרוֹשׁ אֶת־תּוֹרַת יְהוָה וְלַעֲשֹׂת וּלְלַמֵּד בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל חֹק וּמִשְׁפָּט (Ezra 7:10)


  9. #9
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    Apr 2012
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    Default

    Thank you David and Dale. I appreciate your comments.

    I do notice, as I look around, that Nota Bene is designed for PCs. As a Mac user, I'm not sure I want to go that route--even if their latest version also runs on Mac, via Wine technology. I do have Parallels, so that would also be an option, but seeing the price, I would be a little reticent to dive in.

    I've also come across several recommendations for Mellel, which is specifically designed for Mac, and is produced by an Israeli company... which means that Hebrew and Aramaic would not be a problem. It's also significantly less expensive. Is either of you (or anyone else) familiar with it? Here's a link:

    http://www.mellel.com/

    As I continue to piddle with unicode Hebrew on MS Word, one of the issues (not the only one!) is that when a quote in parentheses straddles two lines, there is a space gap between the last word on the first line and the opening parenthesis (is this clear?). Something like this:

    "Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock. You who are enthroned upon the cherubim ( יֹשֵׁב הַכְּרוּבִים הוֹפִיעָה), shine forth. Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh, stir up your might and come to save us! Restore us, O God; let your face shine, that we may be saved!"

    I'm not sure how this will look when it actually comes out. But you can imagine the space at the end of the parentheses right after הַכְּרוּבִים. Have others experienced this? Does anyone have a work-around solution to it?

    Thanks for any help in this!

    Don

  10. #10
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    Mar 2009
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    I know a few Mac users who use NB just fine under Parallels or Wine. But obviously that does add another layer of complication.

    I'm not familiar with Mellel, so I can't comment on it. As regards the price of Nota Bene, though, it's important to bear in mind that it does much more than just word processing (though it is a fabulous word processor, much more adept than MS Word, in my experience, at turning thoughts into sentences and then shaping and arranging the sentences). It's an entire research and writing system, including indexing notes and other documents, bibliography management, formatting and reformatting of citations, and integrating bibliographical items with the notes taken on them (and all of that in a multitude of languages). I might add that the price also includes some truly remarkable and personalized tech support. But of course everyone has to make the decisions about costs and benefits that best suit their own situation.
    David Rensberger
    Atlanta, Georgia

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