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  1. #1
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    Default CNTTS question

    Dear BW-Friends,

    how can I find all passages where the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus differ ?
    I hope somebody of you has done such a query and can help me...
    Yours in Christ !
    Peter, Germany
    www.streitenberger.com
    Last edited by Peter; 01-09-2013 at 08:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Dear BW-Friends,

    how can I find all passages where the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus differ ?
    I hope somebody of you has done such a query and can help me...
    Yours in Christ !
    Peter, Germany
    www.streitenberger.com
    I think if you look through the examples given in the BW9 Help file you should find it easier to do the search you want.

    BW9 CNTTS Search examples
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  3. #3
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    Dear Michael,
    thank you for your answer - but I couldn't find the special query I want to do in the help file.
    I'd be happy to get help, as I can't proceed and I need the results for my research...
    Yours in Christ !
    Peter, Germany

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Dear Michael,
    thank you for your answer - but I couldn't find the special query I want to do in the help file.
    I'd be happy to get help, as I can't proceed and I need the results for my research...
    Yours in Christ !
    Peter, Germany
    Hmm. I thought an example of that was in the Help file. Maybe this blog post (Earlier in the week James Tucker asked if the CNNTS Critical Apparatus can be searched according to field so that one can see the differences between two MSS.) was what I was thinking of instead.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  5. #5
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    Oct 2004
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    Default

    Dear Michael,

    I'll check this out tomorrow, when I'm back in office and able to work with BW. Maybe that's the right direction.
    Thank you so far for your help - further help is very welcome !
    Yours
    Peter, Germany

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Hi Peter,

    I think I have figured out how to do it, but don't have time tonight to document the process. If no one beats me to it I'll try to write it up for you tomorrow.

    It involves running 4 CNTTS queries, and some work with the Verse List Manager.

    This is my first time running CNTTS queries. I found the ones I used ran much more slowly than I'm used to with BW.

    --Jim

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Dear BW-Friends,

    how can I find all passages where the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus differ ?
    I hope somebody of you has done such a query and can help me...
    Yours in Christ !
    Peter, Germany
    www.streitenberger.com
    Hello Peter,

    I'm interested to see what Jim has to show by using the SNTTS apparatus, but while since there's it's only about 1:00 am in America, as you wait, you can take a look at the videos that come with BW9 and you'll find one that addresses that question. Under "Comparing versions and manuscripts" there's one entitled "Display Differences Between Versions Using Text Comparison Settings." One of the examples shown there is finding differences between the BNT and the BYZ. You can just replace those versions with M-01A M-03A. It's very fast and works quite nicely.

    Hope that helps!

    Donald Cobb
    Aix-en-Provence, France
    Last edited by Donald Cobb; 01-11-2013 at 01:48 AM. Reason: misspelling

  8. #8
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    Jan 2008
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Dear BW-Friends,

    how can I find all passages where the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus differ ?
    This question is more complicated than it appears at first glance.
    For one thing, CNTTS has a whole bunch of manuscript identifiers it applies to א and B. Here is the pull down list from the search window:

    Name:  Clipboard04.jpg
Views: 148
Size:  37.0 KB

    For another, when is a difference a difference? CNTTS has 6 codes for "Minor Variations" which may or may not be important to you. (I was interested to see that in Mat 1:6 the various spellings of "Solomon" was tagged "S" for significant, together with a Minor Variation code "P" for spelling of Proper Name/Noun).

    I made the simplifying decisions to use only MSS א & א*, B & B* (I think this is equivalent to BW versions M-01A and M-03A), and to limit the search to "Variation Unit Type" of "S Significant".

    First find all Significant B variants that are not in א.

    Begin by finding all Significant B variants.
    Using the CNTTS Search window, set "VU/MV type" to "S"
    Set "MS" to "B B*" from the drop-down list (Shift and Control keys operate normally for selection of multiple MSS)
    Select "Options" "Search entire apparatus" & "Replace results list with search results"
    Run Search:

    Name:  AddB.jpg
Views: 149
Size:  140.0 KB

    I got 15,993 hits

    Next, remove all Significant א variants that are also in B.
    Set "MS" to "א א*"
    Select "options" "Search previous results list" & "Remove search results from results list"
    Run Search:

    Name:  RemoveSin.jpg
Views: 152
Size:  150.9 KB

    I got 3,327 hits; the significant B variants that are not in א.

    Select "Option" "Export highlighted verses to main window" and the verses now become the verses listed in your Search pane of the main BW window (the far left one).
    You can now open the "Verse List Manager" window and Import "Entire Search Window Verse List"
    The 3,327 variation units were in 2,472 verses (some verses have multiple variation units).
    I strongly recommend labeling and saving this Verse List.

    Next, find all Significant א variants that are not in B.
    Repeat the whole process, but search first on א and then remove the B hits. Be sure to reset your options each time.

    You now have 2 Verse Lists that you can combine and use as you wish.

    B does not have the following passages:
    1Ti, 2Ti, Tit, Phm, Heb 9:15-13:25, Rev
    I removed them manually from the verse list. You could set a custom search limit if you wish, but when I tried out this scenario limiting it to a small book (James) the searches ran very slowly. Run without limits the searches had the usual BW quickness.

    In the end, my list had 1,123 verses

    Export the combined list to the search window, and you can step through all the significant differences.

    To review the results I set up BW this way:
    In pane 2 (the Browse window) I displayed all the M-01x and M-03x versions. I set BW's Text Comparison on M-01A M-03A, and it was of some help, but I got a lot of highlighted "differences" that looked identical to me. (Today I reset the Text Comparison, and it appears to have fewer false hits. Don't know what I changed. But there are still some false hits.)
    In pane 3, the CNTTS Apparatus, of course.
    In pane 4, the Mss tab with only GNT and the various M-01 and M-03 versions displayed (via Tools, Collation Options)

    Name:  Clipboard01.jpg
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Size:  618.9 KB

    This exercise has been an eye-opener for me -- I found the way CNTTS is presented to be difficult to understand. I am now much more able to understand the extensive information it contains.
    I discovered that the CNTTS Search window and the CNTTS regular window display the information in complementary ways; having them both open is very helpful. (But it would be nice if the Search window mouse-over info would work for the Papyri.)
    Last edited by Jim Wert; 01-11-2013 at 05:36 PM. Reason: New information

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    Dear Friends, dear Jim,

    I just followed each step, Jim, you provided (thank you for the pictures as well) and it works ! That's more than I expected. Thank you, Jim, so much !!! One question remains: how many variation units did you find, where B and Aleph differs ? I wanted to check this as well.

    Yours
    Peter, Germany

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    One question remains: how many variation units did you find, where B and Aleph differs ? I wanted to check this as well.
    This is a more difficult question to answer, because of the passages missing from B.

    The B & B* variation units, minus the א & א* variation units, is 3,327, as I mentioned above.
    The א & א* variation units, minus the B & B* variation units, is 2,329, but this includes all of the א & א* variation units from 1Ti, 2Ti, Tit, Phm, Heb 9:15-13:25, Rev, for which B has no text.

    Correcting the count of verses was relatively easy -- just delete two bunches of contiguous verses in the Verse List Manager.

    I can think of two ways to adjust the variation units count for the missing passages:

    1. Create a Search Limit so you are searching the same verses in both manuscripts. In the CNTTS Search window set Option "Use search limits settings from main window". You should only need to use this option for the א search from which you will then subtract the B variations.
      Add the total number of variation units that the search widow reports to the 3,327 found in the B minus א searches.
      I expect this "limited" search to run quite long.
    2. Do the searches for א minus B as before.
      Scroll through the search results using the "Search results" navigation buttons, manually count the hits (variation units) in the sections that are missing from B, and subract that number from 2,329. Add the result of that calculation to 3,327, and you have the total number of variation units where B and א differ.


    Remember in all of this that the results depend on which variation units CNTTS chose to label Significant.

    Hope this helps,
    Jim

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