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Thread: BibleWorks 9 vs Logos 4 Original Languages

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  1. #1

    Default BibleWorks 9 vs Logos 4 Original Languages

    Hi, all.

    I'm contemplating buying BibleWorks 9 or Logos 4 Original Language package. I would very much appreciate any helpful advice people have, especially those who use or have used both programs recently.

    1. One of my concerns [was] that the very cluttered 'look' of BibleWorks. Is there a full screen toggle where the menu bars can be eliminated from the screen? Does one always need to have three windows (search, browse, analysis) open all the time? Is the size of each of three these windows adjustable?
    - This concern has been erased in Post #s 6, 11, 12. Thanks.

    2. Does anyone have a list of things that one can do on BibleWorks that cannot be done on Logos? Or vice-versa? On of the things that I read in a comparison of older versions of both programs was that purely syntactical searches were able to be done on Logos but not on BibleWorks. I've heard that this is no longer be the case, but I am very interested in this aspect so if anyone has some specific information along this lines, please share.

    3. I am already aware of the larger assortment of books that can be added to Logos, but I'm not interested in all their older commentaries or confessional or apologetic, even devotional or self-help types of works. I am interested in their more modern academic stuff, eg, the 3-volume Davies & Allison commentary on Matthew, especialy if they can be linked to the textual analysis part of Logos.
    - I've learned that the Logos search engine can be downloaded for free and specific individual works an be downloaded from Logos. One does not need to buy one of their base packages. So, although their individual works are expensive (they would be expensive on top of one of their base packages too), it really is economical to use the full BibleWorks package and purchase whatever additional items one would like in an electronic format from Logos. Perhaps not as integrated of a solution as many would like, but it does allow for the best of both worlds.

    4. One of the biggest advantages of BibleWorks for me is the parallel Hebrew-LXX module. It seems like that is not available on Logos. Correct? Not correct.
    Some Logos users consider their ability to do parallel MT-LXX work superior to BibleWorks. They do not need to show the English line of their interlinears (I dislike English interlinears) and their text is searchable morphologically and the excellent Tov 'commentary' on the LXX can be integrated into their search tools. It is expensive ($100), but it is not merely an e-book.

    5. Another substantial advantage of BibleWorks are the morphologically analyzed complete works of Josephus, Philo, and the apostolic fathers. It seems like that is not available on Logos. Correct? Not correct. But not sure yet how expensive it would be to duplicate this on Logos.

    6. How good are Logos' iPhone/Andoid apps? Those would be very nice to have depending upon functionality. No longer an issue. If I use the free Logos search engine with some free and individually purchased items, I would be able to use the Logos iPhone/Android apps, which are free to users of the Logos search engine.

    7. I've read that searches on BibleWorks are much faster. Any other things that I should be thinking about?

    Sorry for so many questions, but I hope some of this information would be very helpful to others looking into this software. Many years ago, when I was doing my doctoral studies I used L-Base by Silver Mountain Software as well as GRAMCORD (free version for some work I did on the Greek analysis), but I have not used anything comparable in a Windows environment.

    Thanks for your time!
    Last edited by robrecht; 06-10-2012 at 07:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    What exactly is it that you want to do with the software? Both have their strengths and weaknesses and do not make for an apples to apples comparison. Do you have any experience with either in the past? My short answer would be if you're interested in textual stuff, working with Greek and Hebrew themselves, BibleWorks is the best solution. If you see the languages as less important as primary sources and instead engage yourself primarily in secondary literature (commentaries and monographs) then Logos is probably what you will find most useful. If I had to choose only one, BibleWorks is the easy choice for me, but your answer depends on your needs.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    What exactly is it that you want to do with the software? Both have their strengths and weaknesses and do not make for an apples to apples comparison. Do you have any experience with either in the past? My short answer would be if you're interested in textual stuff, working with Greek and Hebrew themselves, BibleWorks is the best solution. If you see the languages as less important as primary sources and instead engage yourself primarily in secondary literature (commentaries and monographs) then Logos is probably what you will find most useful. If I had to choose only one, BibleWorks is the easy choice for me, but your answer depends on your needs.
    Hi, Michael.

    Thanks for your response. I am mostly interested in studying the original texts, especially the LXX translation of the Hebrew scriptures, Targums, the use of the Hebrew/LXX scriptures in the New Testament, and Greek syntactical searches of NT, LXX, Josephus, and other ancient Greek texts.

    I've been assuming, based on my reading so far, that BibleWorks will be the best fit for me, but now it seems like I missed some of the important add-ons available in Logos, eg, E. Tov's commentary on the LXX and morphological modules for fathers, Philo, etc.

  4. #4
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    It's been a couple of years now, but I had similar thoughts about the BibleWorks interface before I purchased it. Here is the thread I created back then: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/sho...ance-Interface

    My thoughts are different now, for the most part. Although the interface may look somewhat cluttered, it actually makes for streamlined study. It takes very few clicks (usually one) to get to where you want to go and to do what you want to do.

    As far as BW vs. Logos, they are both great programs, but have different strengths. Logos is primarily a library program related to the Bible, BW is primarily designed for directly analyzing and exegeting the Biblical text. To an extent, each additionally does what the other does, but those are their primary focuses and strengths.
    καὶ ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀπέθανεν ἵνα οἱ ζῶντες μηκέτι ἑαυτοῖς ζῶσιν, ἀλλὰ τῷ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ἀποθανόντι καὶ ἐγερθέντι.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It's been a couple of years now, but I had similar thoughts about the BibleWorks interface before I purchased it. Here is the thread I created back then: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/sho...ance-Interface

    My thoughts are different now, for the most part. Although the interface may look somewhat cluttered, it actually makes for streamlined study. It takes very few clicks (usually one) to get to where you want to go and to do what you want to do.

    As far as BW vs. Logos, they are both great programs, but have different strengths. Logos is primarily a library program related to the Bible, BW is primarily designed for directly analyzing and exegeting the Biblical text. To an extent, each additionally does what the other does, but those are their primary focuses and strengths.
    Thanks, Lee. That was a good thread. With respect to my question about hiding menus and windows, this post was especially encouraging:
    Quote Originally Posted by bkMitchell View Post
    My advice is:
    (1) Get BibleWorks (and you did)
    (2) Load/boot up BibleWorks and look at it's interface
    (3) Click on "Veiw" scroll down and click on Show/Hide then de-check Toolbar and Analysis Window
    (4)Notice, the much simpler or less crowded interface you now have.
    (5)You may or may not be in favor of that arrangement, but you know now that it is possible to change BibleWorks. For example you can also have the analysis placed at the bottom of the browse window, change font size and color, and much more. So, take sometime to explore and play with BibleWorks many options.

    BibleWorks is a highly configurable program, allows you to rearrange, and manipulate various aspects of it's interface. If you find that have two or more different arrangements you are fond of you can use the Enable configuration manager option to save these different arrangment under specific titles.

  6. #6

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    I wrote Why I love BibleWorks about version 8. Everything I said about 8 is true of 9, and then some.
    Dan Phillips
    Books:Web presence:
    tfo+[]l;w> hw"hy> tr:AT-ta, vArd>li Abb'l. !ykihe ar"z>[, yKi

    s `jP'(v.miW qxo laer"f.yIB. dMel;l.W

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Hi, Michael.

    Thanks for your response. I am mostly interested in studying the original texts, especially the LXX translation of the Hebrew scriptures, Targums, the use of the Hebrew/LXX scriptures in the New Testament, and Greek syntactical searches of NT, LXX, Josephus, and other ancient Greek texts.
    I don't have a ready comparison for you resource-by-resource, whether BibleWorks will have everything you want. The upside and downside of Logos is that you can get just about everything, but for a price. If you compare what you would spend in BibleWorks for the same resources in Logos, you will see how BibleWorks is the better deal by far. That goes a long way in my own decision-making. You can see on BW's website all the resources that come with it. Of things you mentioned, BibleWorks does not currently have a syntax module [databases are morphologically tagged, not syntactically tagged], which you can find in Logos. But it does have things Logos does not like the Manuscript Project and the vast apparatus in the CNTTS database. I think you mentioned on the other site that you were going to try out both for a month and see which you prefer. I would suggest that both programs have their own unique learning curve, but again the best decision to make in my mind is to decide which program will enable you to do what you want best. Whether you get either program you're going to end up getting more resources than you could ever possibly use, but even then you'll always wish you had more.
    Last edited by Michael Hanel; 06-09-2012 at 06:05 PM.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  8. #8

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    Thanks, Michael.

    This concerns me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    ... Of things you mentioned, BibleWorks does not currently have a syntax module [databases are morphologically tagged, not syntactically tagged], which you can find in Logos. ...
    I had asked the support staff here about syntactical searches: When searching the morphologically analyzed Greek NewTestament, can I search for strings of grammatical tags, independent of specific words. For example, could Isearch for all occurrences of three consecutive genitives?

    Response: Searches can be constructed to find specific forms, or itcan be set to broaden the range of search results. The search that you described, which itrequires a little extra setup, is certainly possible.

    We may be using 'syntax' a little differently. Can you explain a bit more about what Logos has in terms of syntactical tags that BibleWorks does not have?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Thanks, Michael.

    I had asked the support staff here about syntactical searches: When searching the morphologically analyzed Greek NewTestament, can I search for strings of grammatical tags, independent of specific words. For example, could Isearch for all occurrences of three consecutive genitives?

    Response: Searches can be constructed to find specific forms, or itcan be set to broaden the range of search results. The search that you described, which itrequires a little extra setup, is certainly possible.

    We may be using 'syntax' a little differently. Can you explain a bit more about what Logos has in terms of syntactical tags that BibleWorks does not have?
    An opinion is only worth the breath it costs, but Syntax databases still are not "all that." You'd have to compare Logos' offerings, because they have different ones, and they all follow slightly different methodologies/philosophies, which require you to know how and why they call different parts what. It's all subjective and more reflective of current ideas of syntax than ancient ones. By comparison, morphological analysis is much more objective. Although there still is room for philosophical debate (do you call a neuter adjective a a neuter adjective, or if it's functioning as an adverb, call it that instead? Do you make the call that a given verb is middle, passive or deponent or just tag it as all of them and let the user decide? etc.), they are considered much more reliable and fixed. The word is either a genitive or it's not.

    But there is a relationship between morphology and syntax. So for the question you asked, you can certainly think of it as a syntactical question, but it's also a morphological one. And yes you can easily search for that in BibleWorks. It may take you a little bit to figure out how you do searches like this in BibleWorks, but once you learn, it's pretty simple. Your search is a bit more complicated because you want to find any three genitive words in a row. And since this could mean a genitive definite article, noun, adjective, or verb the search is more complicated and would probably best be done with the Graphical Search Engine. If you do a search on the command line though for "'*@ng* *@ng* *@ng*" you'd get results for three genitive nouns in a row with nothing in between them. So yes, it is possible, but it will require you to learn how to perform searches. Or just ask around here; there are usually plenty of people willing to offer advice.

    [I would want to double check this, but I think this string "'*@[vadrn]*g* *@[vadrn]*g* *@[vadrn]*g*" would do what you initially asked about]
    Last edited by Michael Hanel; 06-09-2012 at 07:26 PM.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Hi, all.

    One of my concerns is that the very cluttered 'look' of BibleWorks. Is there a full screen toggle where the menu bars can be eliminated from the screen? Does one always need to have three windows (search, browse, analysis) open all the time? Is the size of each of three these windows adjustable?
    Does this answer your first question?
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    Yes, the windows are adjustable and the analysis window can be hidden or stacked below the main window, too.
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    Last edited by bkMitchell; 06-10-2012 at 01:01 AM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


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