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Thread: Help with a complex search between Hebrew OT and LXX

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    27

    Default Help with a complex search between Hebrew OT and LXX

    I was asked by a fellow BW user to construct a search for the following and having trouble putting it together:

    "Times in the OT where one imperative is followed by another imperative within (20?) words, but where the LXX does not translate the second imperative with an imperative.

    Make sense? In other words, I'm looking for passages similar to Genesis 12:1-2, where there are the imperatives "Go" and "be a blessing," but where the LXX (and most other translations) translate "be a blessing" with something other than an imperative, thus understanding it as a purpose/result clause. (I realize I'll probably get a lot of future-indicatives, and that's fine---it will at least tip me off to those places where I might find Hebrew imperatives being understood in a result/purpose sense.)"

    I have fiddled around a bit but have been unable to set something up in the GSE that gets at this. I know that even the best search will not be exact, but I want to give him something. Any suggestions? I tried to see if anything in the Parallel Hebrew and LXX would get me what is wanted but didn't see a way to do it.

    Matt

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    175

    Default

    I think you would run your search in both the BHS and LXX and then create verse lists from the searches and perform a comparison giving you a list of exceptions. At that point you would need to go through them as 20 words in BHS is not always equal to 20 words in the LXX and other variants that could cause false hits.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    915

    Default

    You would have to use WTM as the Hebrew search version and BLM as the Greek search version. First on the command line search WTM for '*@v?v* *20 *@v?v*
    Open the Verse List Manager and "Import" the "Entire Search Window Verse List."
    Next search BLM for '*@vd* *20 *@vd*
    In the Verse List Manager make the "Active List" "Secondary" and again "Import" "Entire Search Window Verse List."
    From "Selection" choose "Select All" then
    From the "Edit" drop-down list choose "Remap Selected Verses to Another Version" and choose the Hebrew version WTM.
    With the Secondary Verse List still active choose the "Selection" "Select Verses Not Common to Both Lists" and hit the "Delete" key (This will get rid of verses in LXX which have two or more imperatives, but the Hebrew verses do not.)
    Now make the Main Verse List the "Active List" and choose the "Selection" Choose Verses Common to Both Verse Lists". Then from the "Edit" drop-down list choose "Delete Selected."
    This will leave your Main list with 203 verses (if you did it the way I did) in the Main Verse List in which WTM has two or more imperatives, but LXX does not.
    (The Secondary Verse List will have all the verses in which both WTM and BLM have two or more imperatives. That does not mean that the BLM imperatives necessarily translate the WTM imperatives.)
    A quick look at some verses in the Main List shows that LXX often translates two closely-associated Hebrew imperatives by turning the first into a participle and leaving the second as an imperative.
    I hope you followed this.
    Mark Eddy

  4. #4

    Default Search to use in GSE

    I've attached the QF file you can use in the GSE to accomplish the search you want to do.
    A couple notes:
    First, limiting proximity to 20 words will not get you the results you want like Gen 12.1-2, since if you actually count all the words separately (ie, you need to count conjunctions and articles even though there are combined), there are 24 words of separation. There are even more words in the Greek. I set the proximity to 30, but you can adjust that as you wish.
    Second, in the GSE, note that under Query > Properties ? Flags, I had to set "Cross verse boundaries."
    Also note the use of subqueries for doing cross-version searches and for "NOT AND" searches.
    The logic of my query is thus:

    1. Find all instances of 2 imperatives in the MT w/in 30 words
    2. Find all instances of 2 imperatives in the LXX w/in 30 words
    3. Find all instances of imperatives in the LXX where there is NOT another imperative w/in 30 words
    4. Combine the results of 2 and 3 and invert the results. This will give me all instances where there is at least one imperative but not 2.
    5. Combine 1 and 4.

    It takes about a minute to run the search on my old computer, and I end up with 251 results.
    Also note that this will return instances where the LXX renders the first MT imperative with something other than an imperative (usually a participle).
    As a NT person myself, this is kind of interesting in light of a passage like Matthew 28.19 which uses participle, imperative, participle in the "go... make disciples... baptize" string.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by MGVH; 12-09-2010 at 01:55 PM.
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Professor of Biblical Studies
    Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg
    ltsg.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  5. #5

    Default Now I have a question...

    If you ran the QF file I provided, it should have returned all the instances satisfying the search with all the Hebrew imperatives highlighted.
    I'd like to have all the Greek imperatives highlighted too so I could more easily compare them.
    Is there a way to do that so that both the Hebrew and Greek imperatives are highlighted?
    NOTE: the Greek imperatives are not highlighted in the initial search because of the NOT parameter.
    I did try to search for imperatives and limited the search to the entire results list (ie, right click in command line, choose "Checkbox Search Filter" and choose entire results list), but that won't do it either...
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Professor of Biblical Studies
    Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg
    ltsg.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    915

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    There currently is no way to have both Greek and Hebrew highlighted in the browse window at the same time. The only way I could think of getting the Greek of this search highlighted (but the Hebrew highlighting would be removed) would be to do the two separate searches (as I proposed), and then after making the combined verse list, re-do the Greek search on the command line (to highlight the Greek imperatives) and then use the VLM to advance through the list of verses. But it is a lot less work just to use your query with the graphic search engine rather than to go through all the steps necessary to use the Verse List Manager.
    Mark Eddy

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