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Thread: Quotation from the Mishnah

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    This conversation reminds me of this quotation from R. D. Wilson, who was fluent in 45 languages and dialects --

    "I remember that some years ago I was investigating the word 'Baca,' which you have in the English Bible -- "passing through the valley of Baca, make it a well." I found in the Hebrew dictionary that there was a traveller named Burkhart, who said that 'Baca' meant mulberry trees. That was not very englightening. I could not see how mulberries had anything to do with water. I looked up all the authority of the scholars in Germany and England since Burkhart's time and found they all quoted Burkhart! Just one scholar at the back of it! When I was travelling in the Orient, I found that we had delicious water here and there. The water sprang up apparently out of the ground in the midst of the desert. I asked my brother who was a missionary where this water came from. He said, 'They bring the water from the mountains. It is an underground aqueduct. They cover it to prevent it from evaporating.' Now the name of that underground aqueduct was Baca!" R. D. Wilson, What Is An Expert

    You can find more quotes and info on R. D. Wilson here --

    http://lamblion.net/Quotations/rd_wilson.htm
    http://lamblion.net/Articles/ScottJo..._testament.htm
    It's also another vote of confidence for BibleWorks and their commitment to giving access to the original sources so we can best make solid judgments based on what the actual texts say. Meanwhile the competition is working on publishing Barclay's commentaries.... Commentaries are interesting and sometimes they even have keen insights into the text. But by and large we'd be much better off if we were better at interacting with the sources than quoting our favorite scholar.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    ...But by and large we'd be much better off if we were better at interacting with the sources than quoting our favorite scholar.
    You have pinpointed why so much that is produced today is not merely worthless, but grossly inaccurate, and ESPECIALLY with regard to textual criticism and other related biblical studies. Statements by "scholars" are blindly taken as fact today, even by those who have earned, or are in the process of earning, PhD's, and thus the mythology is perpetuated ad nauseam.

    When you first started this thread I said to myself, "Well, now, that's refreshing... there goes a person who is actually willing to verify something for a change. How unique in today's scholastic environment."

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You might check Zohar in Gen. fol. 104. 3.
    Sure, thing let's check it out:

    ZOHAR VOL. 1 BERESEET (A) / Genesis part 1 (104)

    104. King Solomon penetrated the depth OF THE SECRET of the nut, as it is written: "I went down into the garden of nuts" (Shir Hashirim 6:11). He took hold of the shell (Klipah) of the nut and looked at all its layers. He came to realize that the main pleasure of the spirits in the shell of the nut was just to cling to human beings and defile them, as it is written: "And the delights of the sons of men, women very many (Heb. shidot)" (Kohelet 2:8). THIS MEANS THAT THE DEMONS (HEB. SHEDIM) TAKE PLEASURE ONLY IN HUMAN BEINGS.

    https://www2.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/zohar&vol=2&sec=30



    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    ... If someone tells me see Gen. 4:6 I know what that means, but I don't have a clue what Zohar is or where to find this.

    So, you want to know what the Zohar is? Okay, here's one opinion on what it is:

    "A pseudepigraphic work which pretends to be a revelation from God communicated through R. Simeon ben Yoḥai to the latter's select disciples. Under the form of a commentary on the Pentateuch, written partly in Aramaic and partly in Hebrew, it contains a complete cabalistic theosophy, treating of the nature of God, the cosmogony and cosmology of the universe, the soul, sin, redemption, good, evil, etc. It first appeared in Spain in the thirteenth century, being made known through the agency of the cabalistic writer Moses ben Shem-Ṭob de Leon, who ascribed it to the miracle-working tanna Simeon ben Yoḥai. The fact that it was launched by such an unreliable sponsor as Moses de Leon, taken together with the circumstance that it refers to historical events of the post-Talmudical period, caused the authenticity of the work to be questioned from the outset. After the death of Moses de Leon, it is related, a rich man of Avila, named Joseph, offered the widow, who had been left without means, a large sum of money for the original from which her husband had made the copy; and she then confessed that her husband himselfwas the author of the work. She had asked him several times, she said, why he had chosen to credit his own teachings to another, and he had always answered that doctrines put into the mouth of the miracle-working Simeon ben Yoḥai would be a rich source of profit (see "Sefer ha-Yuḥasin," ed. Filipowski, p. 89). Incredible as this story seems—for it is inconceivable that a woman should own that her deceased husband had committed forgery for the sake of lucre—it at least proves that shortly after its appearance the work was believed by some to have been written entirely by Moses de Leon. This seems to have been the opinion of the cabalistic writer Joseph ibn Waḳar, and he cautioned the public against the work, which he asserted to be full of errors."

    Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz15J7eZXDX
    Last edited by bkMitchell; 11-14-2010 at 07:46 PM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkMitchell View Post
    So, you want to know what the Zohar is? Okay, here's one opinion on what it is:

    Thanks Brian! Not sure what Lee had in mind, but this doesn't seem very relevant at all as a source for this Gentile quotation.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    Thanks Brian!
    No, not at all. Rather, thank you for asking this question it has started an interesting discussion.

    Not sure what Lee had in mind, but this doesn't seem very relevant at all as a source for this Gentile quotation.
    He seems to be a nice guy and I think he was probably trying to help.

    However, the Zohar being a medieval work, even if it had such a quotation, would not be of help to understanding Jewish attitude toward non-jews during the times the New Testament was written.

    The Zohar might help us understand how some Jews (who turned to Mysitcal ideas) under persecution during the middle ages tried find hope and meaning in this life. It would also help to see how they construed their opposition.

    AND, I agree with both you and Scott that it is important to good back to the sources just as the battle cry of the reforms AD FONTES! (Back to the sources!)
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    Correct, but if it were the source of Barclay it would explain why he doesn't give any source, because the place he grabbed it from also didn't have it.

    For the future I will simply tell others this quotation is false until someone can show me where it really is found. But even if it were found, it's too easily misused by modern-day folks.
    Agreed. Sorry for preaching to the choir before. I much admire your conscientiousness, Michael.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    Agreed. Sorry for preaching to the choir before. I much admire your conscientiousness, Michael.
    No need for apologies here. I just wanted you to know I was on the same page as you were.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  8. #18
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    FWIW, when I googled "Zohar and Gentiles," I found several quite nasty quotes, purportedly from Zohar, suggesting a deep-seated hatred of Gentiles and Christianity among the Jews. Many of the quotes were located at white supremacist websites.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobvenem View Post
    FWIW, when I googled "Zohar and Gentiles," I found several quite nasty quotes, purportedly from Zohar, suggesting a deep-seated hatred of Gentiles and Christianity among the Jews. Many of the quotes were located at white supremacist websites.
    Well that's always a good sign!
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  10. #20
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    I sort of read, i.e., I scanned, the relevant section of the Soncino Zohar (104), and though I didn't read it real carefully, I didn't see anything whatsoever that appeard to support the contention, and as has already been mentioned, there is no verification of the keywords which I performed a search on in the Soncino Zohar in that section.

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