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Thread: Bible Works in the Church Revisited

  1. #21
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    Dear BK,
    My responses are interleaved with your text (in red):
    Rashi's comentary on the Tanach( any edition of the Mikraot Gedolot )
    Rashi simply quotes the Targum, which says "And the lad was nursing". Now that's problematic, since verse 24 in the masoretic text implies that she had weaned him, though room is left open for "she was in the process of weaning him". In any case, the Rashi/Targum intepretation allows linkage with Jer 51:38, which has נער in the qal in the sense baby lions "roaring" (נָעֲרוּ) - apparently for milk. This scenariuo has the freshly weaned Samuel arriving at the temple, famished from the trip but not so hungry/mature he could handle a sirloin steak from the steer they were about to sacrifice. So he cried/roared for milk.


    Metzudat David and Metzudat Zion Textual analysis
    Reinforces Rashi. It says: "He was still small and tender; and despite that, she didn't wait for him to get strong, but rather brought him up to the House of the Lord directly after his weaning at the age of 2. The Targum doesn't say he was still sucking but rather that he was like a sucking child."


    Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (pg, 444)
    Says nothing mnore than that the Septuagint and Old Latin have a longer text and are supported in that by 4QSam-a. De Boer could have added the ancient Armenian, Ethiopian and Coptic versions to the Septuagint group. Only the Syriac versions - Peshitta and Jacob of Edessa ("And the lad was young") - support the masoretic text and the Targum.


    For example, will notice a small raised circle above והנער נָֽעַר as well as3 more circles over 3 more wods in this verse in the BHS. These marks refer to the (MP note) Masorah Parva in the outer margin (page. 444 in BHS). The note is simple a 'chet' with a dot above it. This tells as that there are 8 occurrences of phenomenon in verse 24. The (MM) Masorah Magna registrar at the bottom of page 444 in the (BHS) refers us to list #1564 of the supplementary volume Massorah Gedolah. Also, the critical apparatus alludes to some of the issues at hand here.
    Your eye slipped. Note 24 at the bottom gives the MM (1564) for an MP at verse 19. The MP for verse 24 and MM 32 is 1534. Both MP's - 24 and 32 - begin with chet "8 times", and that confused you. At verse 24 the "8 times" refers not to נער but rather to "Shiloh", which is spelled שלו eight times in scripture as opposed to שלה or שילו or שילה. The MM for וְהַנַּעַר נָעַר is ל with abbreviating overdot. That means לית, Aramaic for "doesn't exist". The expression "The kid was a kid" is unheard of.

    Now, in times closer to our own Rashi felt this section should be rendered: ורביא הוה יניק
    See above. ורביא הוה יניק is a quote from the Targum.

    The Metzudat David Textual commentary by David Altschuler elaborates: רצה לומר הנער היה עודנו נער קטן ורך ועם כל זה לא נמנעה מלהביאו כאשר
    Again see above. You left out the end of the sentence.

  2. #22
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    Greetings Mr. Fincke,

    This is a fun discussion. If, your this is the type of Bible Study you(plural) do in your congregation/Denomination I would really like to attend or at least hear a tape.

    Okay...

    לא אית “There is no other” is how I have always heard it. So, no argument or discussion about that. וְהַנַּ֖עַר נָֽעַר as a phrase only appears here. So, once again no debate about that, I agree.

    There, however, are other phrases that being with הַנַּ֖עַר that appear to be similar in the book of Samuel(only). And, there are other phrases that have 'a' same word repeating, usually names.

    a sirloin steak from the steer
    That's funny.
    but, I'd think he would have avoided the sirloin steak even if he were older as that might not have been considered Kosher after what happened to Jacob.


    (By the way an electronic/digital book publisher is developing and is going to release the Dead Sea Scrolls(Biblical) database for 'a' windows platform and The Göttingen Septuagint, too. I have the sectarian manuscripts in Bibleworks format, but I am highly excited about the Biblical database although I wish it would have been a BW database.)


    The MP for verse 24 and MM 32 is 1534.
    Okay, then what follows here is list 1534 from
    Weil, G. E. (2001). Massorah Gedolah: Manuscrit B. 19a de Léningrad.

    1534
    וְכָל־בֵיתוֹ ג.
    1 S. 1:21 ויעל האיש אלקנה
    2 S. 15:16 ויצא
    1 Chr. 10:6 יחדו מתו


    Okay, now I see my error. (thanks Mr. Fincke) what I really wanted was list 1525. I can't read the French commentary that follows, but for anyone who can read it I've post the French with this. (and, I know my formatting is pretty bad, I need to figure out how to do that better on these forums)
    1525
    בְּשִׁלוֹ ח̇ כתיב̇ ו [בליש̇].
    Jdc. 21:19 הנה חג יי בשלו*
    S. 1:24 ותבאהו בית יי
    S. 3:21 כי בגלה יי תינינ̇ דפסוק̇
    S. 14:3 בן פינחס
    Jer. 7:14 ועשיתי
    Jer. 26:9 מדוע נבית ] עיין מ̇ג̇ [2603
    Jer. 41:5 אנשים
    Ps. 78:60 ויטש משכן שלו

    ce signe complète le titre des listes se terminant par l’expression וסימנהוןdont voici les symboles—et qui sont issues généralement d’une tradition différente de celles dont les titres sont marqués par le simple point.
    סימן זה משלים את כותרת הרשימות המסתיימות בביטוי וסימנהון ואשר מובאות בדרך כלל ממסורת שונה מזו אשר נתנה את הרשימות בהן הכותרות מצויינות באמצעות נקודה בלבד.



    l’astérisque placé après un mot signale un mot erroné qui a été corrigé.
    כוכבון המופיע אחרי מלה מציין מלה משובשת אשר תוקנה.



    les crochets qui signalent une reconstitution ou une restitution.
    סוגריים מרובעים המציינים שחזור או חזרה.



    les crochets qui signalent une reconstitution ou une restitution.
    סוגריים מרובעים המציינים שחזור או חזרה.



    le point final a été rajouté par moi à la fin de chaque titre de liste par souci esthétique et pour faire la différence avec l’énoncé de certaines listes pour lesquelles le double signe donné ci-après a été utilisé. Les deux points superposés qui marquent la fin des listes dans le manuscrit n’ont pas été repris, la forme choisie pour l’édition rend inutile leur usage.
    הנקודה הסופית הוספה על ידי בסוף כל כותרת של רשימה לצורך אסתטי וכדי להבדיל מן הנוסח של רשימות מסוימות בהן השתמשו בסימן הכפול הניתן להלן. לא השתמשנו בשתי הנקודות המופיעות זו על גבי זו והמציינות את סוף הרשימות בכתב היד, משום שצורת ההוצאה הופכת אותן למיותרות.
    Last edited by bkMitchell; 10-14-2010 at 01:29 AM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  3. #23
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    This is a fun discussion.
    The Dead Sea Scrolls - at least the Samuel scrolls - aren't fun. They're a big pain in the b---, as Cross found it.
    If, your this is the type of Bible Study you(plural) do in your congregation/Denomination I would really like to attend or at least hear a tape.
    At the church dinner last night, the cook said: "Gee, I happened on the Bible Works discussion by chance, when I was looking for a verse on the web. I read your discussion, saw the pastor's name. I don't understand what's being said, but please don't mention our pastors' names!" Here I thought we were having a private discussion, and it's all over the internet!

    (By the way an electronic/digital book publisher is developing and is going to release the Dead Sea Scrolls(Biblical) database
    Believe that when I see it.

    Okay, then what follows here is list 1534 from
    Weil, G. E. (2001). Massorah Gedolah: Manuscrit B. 19a de Léningrad.

    For those of you who don't know what's going on with Mm and Mp, see Page Kelley, The Masorah of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, page 8. It's on line at http://books.google.com/books?id=Gh6...edolah&f=false

    1525

    בְּשִׁלוֹ ח̇ כתיב̇ ו [בליש̇].


    Jdc. 21:19 הנה חג יי בשלו*


    S. 1:24 ותבאהו בית יי


    S. 3:21 כי בגלה יי תינינ̇ דפסוק̇


    S. 14:3 בן פינחס


    Jer. 7:14 ועשיתי


    Jer. 26:9 מדוע נבית ] עיין מ̇ג̇ [2603


    Jer. 41:5 אנשים


    Ps. 78:60 ויטש משכן שלו



    You got it. Those are the 8 verses. Why the masorete differentiated in a list titled "Shiloh with vav" between שלו and שילו is beyond me. The French/Hebrew you quoted explains Weil's editing marks. He did more harm than good to the masorah, loading it with "corrections". Biblia Hebraica Quinta is undoing his fiddling.

  4. #24
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    Hello again,

    “as Cross found it”
    You mean this Cross: Mr. Frank Moore Cross, Jr. Right?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Moore_Cross

    ”At the church dinner last night, the cook said”
    I am starting to understand your sense of wit and/or sarcastic humor.

    “He did more harm than good to the masorah, loading it with "corrections". Biblia Hebraica Quinta is undoing his fiddling.”
    I agree.
    Also, it is great that the BHQ will for the first time present a diplomatic edition of both the Masorah Magna and Parva. They have already released some fascicles from this project.

    “Believe that when I see it.”
    Believe, the truth is out there...


    Of Course you know BibleWorks has:
    (1)The Qumran Sectarian Manuscripts (in Hebrew/Aramaic with morphological tags), by Martin G. Abegg, Jr. http://store.bibleworks.com/QSM.html
    (2)Dead Sea Scrolls English Translation Bundle: Biblical and Sectarian Texts http://store.bibleworks.com/product49.html


    Unfortunately BW does not yet have the Biblical Manuscripts(in Hebrew) from the Dead Sea Scrolls/Qumran. I hope they will consider adding this as a module option for those of us who are interested in OT/Hebrew Bible studies.




    The other companies:

    a competing product for the windows platform is developing:
    Qumran Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Database

    a competing product for apple personal computers already has:
    The Dead Sea Scrolls Images
    The Dead Sea Scrolls Biblical Manuscripts
    The Dead Sea Scrolls Greek Biblical Text
    Last edited by bkMitchell; 10-17-2010 at 08:21 PM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  5. #25
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    Hi BkMitchell,

    We have been trying, and will continue to try, to license the Biblical DSS.

    We are always looking for good databases that we can include in the program. If you hear of any databases relevant to the BibleWorks mission that we might be able to license, we welcome your suggestions.

    Blessings,
    Glenn
    Glenn Weaver

    For technical support, please contact Customer Support.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Weaver View Post
    Hi BkMitchell,

    We have been trying, and will continue to try, to license the Biblical DSS.

    We are always looking for good databases that we can include in the program. If you hear of any databases relevant to the BibleWorks mission that we might be able to license, we welcome your suggestions.

    Blessings,
    Glenn
    Hello Mr. Weaver, and thank you for responding to this thread.
    Also, thank you for informing us, that the Bibleworks team has been trying to acquire the DSS Biblical database. This is encouraging.

    However...
    If, I had but one request it would be for the digital images of the facsimile edition of the Leningrad codex. Just, about every modern printed Hebrew Bible, database, and translation is in some way based on the Firkovich B 19 A. So, having a module of the digital images to scroll along side the WTT or translation would be substantially more important than having the DSS or an apparatus for that matter. The paper edition is of course widely available, but it is also quite a large tome to lug around. Having the digital images of it makes a lot of sense to me( if it were possible).

    According, to the west Semitic Research Project's announcement "Because of the publication of this facsimile, digital images are unavailable at the present time"(Link). It's been since been 12 years, since the facsimile was published back in 1998. So, I wonder if they'd change their mind.

    Grace and Peace,
    Brian
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  7. #27
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    This thread is degenerating from a "Non-Bible Works discussion" to a forum for matters that touch the core of a program that claims to deliver the Biblical text. I have the Samuel scrolls reconstructed and typed into the computer, and I don't mean Abegg's Accordance version. Unlike Discoveries in the Judaean Desert 17, with its piecemeal reconstructions, 4QSam-a is in column format and is thus compatible with Ed. Herbert's Reconstructing Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Method Applied to the Reconstruction of 4QSama, Brill, 1997. It goes beyond Herbert's reconstructions, however, in including the First Samuel material. Unfortunately it's neither pointed (neither are the scrolls!) nor morphologically tagged. Attached is column 3, with the text of 4QSam-a for 1 Sam 2:16-3:4. Underlined is what's "on the leather", though that is a misnomer, since the actual fragments in the Shrine of the Book Museum in Jerusalem are virtually illegible. Nor were they amenable to viewing when Cross first worked on them in 1953, and it was only three weeks of treatment with hydrochloric acid and a paint brush that convinced the sticky glob to yield 70 flakes of readable script. Probably a better way to highlight the preserved text would be to set it in red font. The difference in font size between the two halves oif the column - bottom and top - reflects the actual state of the fragments. The text of 1 Sam 1:21-28 and 2:15-16 differs significantly from the masoretic version and for this reason was set in smaller font by the original scribe.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Fincke View Post
    I have the Samuel scrolls reconstructed and typed into the computer, and I don't mean Abegg's Accordance version.
    Are you the Andrew Fincke who wrote, The Samuel Scroll from Qumran: 4QSam(a) Retored and Compared to the Septuagint and 4QSam(c) published by Brill?

    For those who are interested in excerpts of this work (because who can afford $271 from Brill?)

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Fincke View Post
    I have the Samuel scrolls reconstructed and typed into the computer, and I don't mean Abegg's Accordance version.
    Interesting, I wonder how the version you have, Abegg's Accordance module, and Dr. Stephen Pfann's Module for Logos (yet to be released) will compare with each other?
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  10. #30
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    The Israel Antiquities Authority is going to put the entire DSS collection online in hi-res images...

    http://www.antiquities.org.il/about_eng.asp?Modul_id=14

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