Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Elyon in HALOT

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    166

    Default Elyon in HALOT

    In HALOT module, for the entry of עֶלְיוֹן, isn’t there something odd in the bottom line of the following screenshots? The verse references are to Psalm.

    Name:  2010-07-17_162627.jpg
Views: 358
Size:  24.4 KB


    In Psalm of WTT, the word שַׁדַּי is used only twice, in Psa 68:15 and in Psa 91:1. Verse 68:15 is too far removed from any of the verse references to be in parallel with עֶלְיוֹן, and only Psa 91:1 checks out to be correct. Doesn’t it look like that Psa 77:11 parallels with אֵל, and Psa 78:17 and Psa 87:5, with אֱלֹהִים or יהוה in the latter verse?

    Thank you very much for your help in advance.
    Last edited by Yaku Lee; 07-19-2010 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Notice that the references to the Psalms are in canonical order. There are many verses which have "parallel with" after them:
    2S 2214/Ps 1814 (parallel with hwhy), Is 1414Ps 93218 (parallel with hwhy), 4655014 (parallel with ~yhil{a/), 7311 (parallel with lae), 77117817875911 (parallel with yD;v;), 919922 (parallel with hwhy); cj. Ps 1067 for ~y"-l[; prp. !Ayl.[, (BHS); 10711 (parallel with lae), Lam 335.38Sir 639414; Å[, ynEB. Ps 826; !Ayl.[, ~yhil{a/ Ps 5737856; !Ayl.[, hwhy 473; !Ayl.[, hwhy ~ve 718; hwhy is #r,a'h'-lK'-l[; !Ayl.[, 8319979 (parallel with ~yhil{a/-lK'-l[; t'yle[]n: daom.);
    In every instance the editors wish simply to assert that in the previous verse, the two words are parallel. They do not intend to assert that all the verses between "parallel with" have the second word. Does this help clarify their intentions?
    Mark Eddy

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    166

    Default


    Thank you very much for your remarks, Mark. But please allow me to post this again because I am not quite sure of what you mean by the intention of the editors.

    In every instance of the verse references you quoted, the parallel word can be identified either in the same verse (2S 22:14, Ps 18:14, 9:3, 21:8, 46:5, 50:14, 73:11, 91:9, 92:2, 107:11), or in another closely related verse (Is 14:14, for which the parallel is found in verses 3 and 5). Only that the parallel is found in the same verse for Ps 91:1, but the indicated parallel is not found anywhere near for verses 77:11, 78:17, and 87:5. These three verses are the only ones for which the indicated parallel cannot be identified, and that is why the question was raised originally.

    Additionally, in the following screenshot, there is an obvious typographical error: “1K 18:17” has to be changed to “2K18:17.”


    Name:  2010-07-22_144359.jpg
Views: 179
Size:  27.8 KB

    Furthermore, is there any consistency in the indication of head nouns for Elyon? Some are indicated in parentheses as in “(basket),” some without them as in “courtyard,” and one in Hebrew as in בְּרֵכָה. Can this be seen as what the editors designed to do?

    Thank you very much for your response in advance.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    912

    Default

    If you look at the references carefully, you will see that all of the Psalm references listed are in numerical order, not arranged by which words are parallel with ELYON.
    If you look at Ps 9:3 YHWY is not in the verse. In Ps 46:5, although ELOHIM is in the verse, it is not used as a parallel term for ELYON. So you also should not expect 77117817875to included the word SHADAY. In HALOT you should assume that Only the verse Immediately preceding the notation "(parallel with ...)" contains such a parallel. If another verse also displays the parallel, that is a bonus, but not explicitly intended by the editors.
    Does that help clarify what I wrote before?

    Concerning typos, you can report them to dberrors@bibleworks.com.
    Concerning formatting issues such as headings, you would have to look at a printed edition of HALOT to see for sure how it should be displayed. But in this entry, if a word is in parentheses, it refers to the previously-listed verse. If it is not in parentheses, then it can be seen in the verses following. Does this answer your question?
    Mark Eddy
    Last edited by Mark Eddy; 07-24-2010 at 12:43 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    112

    Default It was not my question but ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eddy View Post
    If you look at the references carefully, you will see that all of the Psalm references listed are in numerical order, not arranged by which words are parallel with ELYON.
    If you look at Ps 9:3 YHWY is not in the verse. In Ps 46:5, although ELOHIM is in the verse, it is not used as a parallel term for ELYON. So you also should not expect 77117817875to included the word SHADAY. In HALOT you should assume that Only the verse Immediately preceding the notation "(parallel with ...)" contains such a parallel. If another verse also displays the parallel, that is a bonus, but not explicitly intended by the editors.
    Does that help clarify what I wrote before?

    Concerning typos, you can report them to dberrors@bibleworks.com.
    Concerning formatting issues such as headings, you would have to look at a printed edition of HALOT to see for sure how it should be displayed. But in this entry, if a word is in parentheses, it refers to the previously-listed verse. If it is not in parentheses, then it can be seen in the verses following. Does this answer your question?
    Mark Eddy
    Hi Mark. I appreciate the detail and thoroughness of your response. It was not my question but you certainly enlightened my understanding of how HALOT works.
    נֹתֵ֣ן לֶ֭חֶם לְכָל־בָּשָׂ֑ר כִּ֖י לְעוֹלָ֣ם חַסְדּֽוֹ׃

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    166

    Default

    First, I would like to correct a mistake I made in my previous post. The paralleling word is not found in the same verse for Ps 9:3 as pointed out by Mark, but in its preceding verse.

    I really appreciate Mark’s effort to clarify things regarding the use of Elyon. But I am still in the dark, and let me raise still another question. (I believe it is very important that we thoroughly understand the mechanism of a lexicon to use it productively, and the Prefaces and Introductions are too complicated and lengthy to read.)

    In the following screenshot, the first underlined segment states that Elyon “occurs either by itself (in parallelism) or as an attribute.” Now does the pair of parentheses indicate an optional element, or does it show that parallelism will be indicated in parentheses? Since the meaning of parentheses is not explained anywhere, I will take the statement to mean that Elyon is used as an attribute of אֵל in verses Gen14:18-20,22, and Ps 78:35, and these verses are bounded by semicolon. Then Elyon is used by itself (in parallelism) meaning God from verse reference to Nu 24:16 and on. In the last segment bounded by a comma on the bottom line of the screenshot, I would take it to mean that Elyon in all the verses of Is 14:14 Ps 9:3 21:8 is in parallel with YHWH. If Elyon in only Ps 21:8 and possibly Ps 9:3 are in parallel with YHWH, then is Elyon in Is 14:14 used as an attribute of an unspecified entity? Or is it possible that the Elyon in Is 14:14 has no parallelism and yet not used as an attribute? Can it stand just by itself as another “divine epithet”?


    Name:  2010-07-26_154002.jpg
Views: 140
Size:  57.8 KB

    In the following screenshot, “(parallel with YHWH)” appears twice because, it seems, the canonical order is disrupted by the intervening “Ps 18:14,” and it is demarcated by a comma to start a new listing. It appears that in the listing of verses of the same category, canonical order takes precedence over the numerical order of the verses of the same book, as Mark pointed out. The verse listing is contiguous until there is also a change in parallelism which is demarcated by a comma, or a semicolon if the change is greater.


    Name:  2010-07-26_164320.jpg
Views: 130
Size:  15.6 KB

    When the listing for Elyon used “by itself (in parallelism)” is exhausted, then the attributive us of Elyon resumes to finish the listing of verses. (I have to admit that I do not clearly understand the underlying logic of the listing order. I guess I have to go through the entire listing when I consult HALOT, as I normally do, looking for the verse reference in question, and it is very time consuming.)

    I believe that lexicons should be as clear and exhaustive as possible and not play with some assumed “bonuses.”

    I really would appreciate it very much if you kindly point out where my misunderstanding started in the above description. I may have missed something since I do not claim to have a native intuition and grasp on English language.

    As I examined the vocabulary entry more carefully, it looks like I find another typo. In the following screenshot, “prp.” is not found in the “Abbreviations” but “prb. probably” is. And “cj. conjectural reading” and “prb. probably” make sense there.

    Name:  2010-07-26_203930.jpg
Views: 135
Size:  9.7 KB

    Thank you very much for your patient reading, and I really would appreciate your kind response.

    With Regards.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Yaku Lee; 07-28-2010 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Correction from "prop" to "prp," "prob" to "prb."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Let me try to answer a few of your concerns, and also make a few suggestions.
    First, you write:
    "(I have to admit that I do not clearly understand the underlying logic of the listing order."
    Different authors for HALOT can use different listing order. But in this article they are in the order 1)Torah, 2) Nebiim, 3) Kethuvim, or as Christians used to put it 1) Moses, 2) Prophets, 3) writings. The first reference to Psalms is the same as the reference in 2 Samuel (one of the former Prophets). It is followed by the sole reference in Isaiah, followed by the references in the Psalms and other writings, including the apocrypha (Sirach), then finally conjectural uses of the word. So that is why the Isaiah reference ends up between two references to the Psalms.

    Then you write: "I guess I have to go through the entire listing when I consult HALOT, as I normally do, looking for the verse reference in question, and it is very time consuming."
    May I suggest something more scientific? Simply do a lemma search in WTM for the lemma ELYON, and look through the results without the bias of a lexicon's grouping of the words.
    If you want to find words used in parallel with ELYON, you could used the KWIC tool (key word in context). This will snow that YHWH is used 10 times in the same verse as ELYON. Just click on that line to see the verses. EL occurs 7 times in the same verse as ELYON. Click on that to look at those verses. Etc. If you are not sure that you are really looking at parallels, then check out HALOT, to see if your study agrees with theirs.
    Remember that the authors of HALOT come from the higher critical school of biblical interpretation. They are much more likely to suggest conjectures than even BDB was. They are much more likely to believe in the evolution of the Christian faith, rather than taking the Bible at face value (e.g. the phrase in the ELYON entry: "originally a particular deity, different from El," and "in the OT Å[, is no longer a special deity.") So you have to take what HALOT says with a grain of salt (as we say here in America). In other words, you cannot believe everything the authors write. There are other ways of understanding the text rather than their hyper-critical (and I think a-historical) analyses.
    Then remember also that HALOT was originally written in German and translated into English. I have a bi-ligual copy of the previous edition (Koehler-Baumgartner), and sometimes by looking at their German rendering I can make more sense out of the English translation.
    As a result of my differing understanding of the origin and dating of the Old Testament, I find that doing word studies with the BibleWorks tools is more helpful than just taking the word of any of the lexicons in BibleWorks. I find HALOT most useful for suggesting alternative translations, which sometimes differ considerably from the old standard BDB.

    If there is something else that you really want answered, please let me know, and I'll give it another try.
    In Christ,
    Mark Eddy

    P.S. Concerning the possible typo "prp" since I do not have the new HALOT in printed form, I cannot confirm that it is a typo for "prb" = probably. But it could also be correct as an abbreviation for "perhaps." I'll report this to BW, and perhaps/probably they will look into it.
    Last edited by Mark Eddy; 07-27-2010 at 06:50 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    166

    Default

    Thank you very much for your kind response. I really appreciate it.

    God bless your heart.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,206

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eddy View Post
    P.S. Concerning the possible typo "prp" since I do not have the new HALOT in printed form, I cannot confirm that it is a typo for "prb" = probably. But it could also be correct as an abbreviation for "perhaps." I'll report this to BW, and perhaps/probably they will look into it.
    Don't know if this is the answer in this case, but the abbreviation "prp," when found in the apparatus of BHS, stands for "propose."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    ... but the abbreviation "prp," when found in the apparatus of BHS, stands for "propose."
    I believe, that ISalzman is correct for the following reasons:

    (1)In general it would seem that HALOT follows/or use some of same abbreviations as does the Biblia Hebraica series and most of those seem to be fairly standard.

    (2)It is also of interest that in Holladay's Lexicon(which is basically a highly abridged form of HAlOT) list both Prp and Prob in it's list of abbreviations.

    (3)In Gemany and Western Theological writings these latin abbreviations usually have the following meanings:

    Prob / Prb = Probably(Probabiliter)
    Prp = it's been proposed(Propsitum)
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •