That is funny. I've never seen Caddyshack. I guess I'll have to do that one day, huh?
That is funny. I've never seen Caddyshack. I guess I'll have to do that one day, huh?
"Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." Psalm 139:21-22
"Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." Romans 12:9
To understand what true love is, one must understand this...
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." 2 Corinthians 5:10-11
It impossible to reason with some on this one. Its like trying to tell an RC that Mary can not be the mother of God. Some traditional thinking just will not budge when it has been inculcated all their lives and they do not want to be bothered to shaken out of their comfortable world of acceptance by other traditionalists.He can't say tetelestai and be dead at the same time, and mindless corpuscles can't pay God Who Has No Body for sins made by thought while alive in a body. Thought sins. Thought of Truth Pays for Sins.
F.F. Bruce in his New International commentary on Hebrews recognized that the term "blood" did not have to refer to physical in regards to Jesus on the Cross. He was hardly a novice at exegeting God's Word.This is Bible, not Thieme. Thieme just happened to be one (now a group) of pastors who recognized what the Bible means by 'blood' with reference to the Cross.
Grace and peace,
Last edited by Genez; 10-27-2009 at 02:03 AM.
1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins
The Hebrew mind clearly believed the literal shed blood was the actual life thereof. They are one in the same to the Hebrew mind. Simple - the blood is shed with the life and the body dies. So? the life is in the blood because that is what came out of the body as the body died. So? Now where does that life go? The blood goes into the hereafter - The afterlife. Blood is seen as literal blood and life - one in the same - and it is alive and the blood speaks and goes into the afterlife. Don't eat the blood because it is a life. That was probably Hebrew advanced science/belief at the time.
"For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11, also see Leviticus 17:12, 14; Hebrews 9:22; Genesis 9:4, etc...
The sacrifice for sin was not complete on the Cross as the Apostle Paul clearly states in I Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins." If Jesus had only died that was not enough. Since the "Blood of Christ" purifies/cleanses against sin (I John 1:7, etc ...) then the Blood of Christ clearly is not representative analogy of "death" alone, as so many such as Stibbs, Morris, Nazi Gerhard Kittle, Nazi Johannes Behm et al. claim. see Blood of Abel speaking from the ground, see Blood of Jesus speaketh better things than Abel Hebrews 12:24, Genesis 4:10, etc...
Therefore I Corinthians 15:17 proves CONCLUSIVELY the Blood of Jesus (synecdoche) partly as the Ressurected Life of Jesus continues after the Death on the Cross, because only the Blood of Jesus can purify against sin AND IF sin would have continued after the Death of Jesus if Jesus had only died without Ressurection, THEN clearly the Ressurected life/Blood of Jesus was necessary to cleanse against sin after the Death of Jesus on the Cross.
Thieme's teacher Dr. Chafer(who Thieme reversioned) would have considered Thieme a cult leader for denying the efficacy literal Shed Blood of Jesus.
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol 2 p 110 Quote:
As has been observed, cults are now multiplying and their appearance is restricted to very recent times. These cults cover a variety of ideas all the way from Christian Science to Buchmanism. The latter as completely ignores the blood redemption of Christ as the former. While the former substitutes bodily health for the salvation of the soul, the latter substitutes consecration to God for a new birth by the Spirit. No less misleading is the modern doctrine that salvation is through faith plus consecration. Probably no religious movement is more bold than the I AM cult of recent months. It unblushingly announces by its blasphemous name that it freely embraces all that belongs to the original lie. Its title would have been equally appropriate had it been, I will be like the most High. Space cannot be claimed for an enumeration and analysis of all these systems, ancient and modern. No one can anticipate the number that will yet appear or the confusion of doctrine they will engender; but for each and all there is but one acid test, namely,What place does it give to the redeeming grace of God made possible only through the death and shed blood of Christ?
DR. Wall on the "Blood of Jesus" synecdoche http://withchrist.org/thieme_by_joe_wall.pdf:
Thieme's position evaluated. Thieme is correct in observing that the term blood of Christ is a pregnant term with figurative significance. The problem with Thieme's interpretation is that he restricts the term solely to the spiritual death of Christ and fails to see that it includes not only his spiritual death but also his physical blood and the whole act of dying physically. Such a use of the term is a common literary device in the New Testament known as a “synecdoche,” that is “a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole.”28 Acts 27:37 (A.V.) furnishes an example: "We were in all in the ship two hundred three score and sixteen souls." Here souls is a synecdoche for the whole person. The "blood of Christ" is a synecdoche for the entire event of the crucifixion of Christ on Golgotha, which included the nailing of His hands and feet, His bleeding, His blood, all of His physical suffering of the cross, His separation from the Father as He bore the sins of the world, His physical death, and the piercing of His side. Similar synecdoches are the terms cross, stripes and Calvary. On the one hand, it should be observed that blood of Christ cannot be used solely of the fluid that once flowed in Jesus veins as Walter suggests; otherwise, there are two means of reconciliation: the cross, as stated in Ephesians 2:16, and the blood of Christ, as stated in Ephesians 2:13. Obviously such is not the case; both cross and blood of Christ are synecdoches for the same thing, Christ's suffering and violent death. 29 On the other hand, it is highly unlikely that the term blood of Christ is used solely of Christ's spiritual death as Thieme suggests; since New Testament figurative usage of blood includes physical death. In the New Testament the term refers to the total event of death by violent means. In Matthew 23:3 5, Jesus speaks of the "blood of righteous Abel" and "the blood of Zechariah." Obviously death by violent means is in view not spiritual death. Blood is used because the normal violent taking of life in those days was by blood-letting with the sword, spear or other weapon. As such, blood is used as a synecdoche that includes physical blood, not a "representative analogy" that excludes it.
Therefore Dr. Chafer would call Thieme a cult for denying the efficacy of the literal Shed Blood of Jesus.
Last edited by PeaceMaker; 03-05-2011 at 05:17 PM.
But? Your irresponsibly dismissal of the clear truth is obvious to anyone and everyone.
But? Regardless EITHER The Apostle Paul is a liar or not.
If the Apostle Paul was NOT a liar then he is telling the whole truth THAT IF Jesus was not raised THEN all christians are still in their sins REGARDLESS of fickle RUMOR. The Apostle Paul told the truth about the Christians condition regardless of rumors.
1 Corinthians 15:17 is really simple if Jesus was not raised then all christians are still in their sins. It's either true or not true. If the Apostle Paul is not a liar then the Blood of Jesus defeating sin goes past the Cross into the Ressurected life.
And the last enemy defeated is death which has not occured even yet!
Actually, rickross heated up as of late since Truthtesty smacked down zeebrook, Morris, Kittle, Behm et al. Well it is quiet now that thiemites can no longer defend Thieme's myths there. That's fixin to happen here. Rickross is just a reference.
So whether the Apostle Paul was dispelling a rumor, why would he lie about christians still in sins if Jesus was not risen? Why would he lie that "death only with no Ressurection" would result in christians still being in their sins? He wouldn't. The obvious answer is because "Death alone" was not sufficient. The life from death (Blood of Jesus synecdoche) defeats sin AFTER Death on the Cross.
Now folks watch the infamous Georgia genez "dodge bob and weave". You might want to put on a little Charlie Daniel's music about "the devil went down to Georgia" when reading genez's dodge bob and weave reply.
You can lay that golden fiddle at my feet genez.
Thanks for resurrecting this thread gents. I do love the man (Oooh! That statement ought be a red flag. Oooh! "flag." That almost rhymes with "***"! I had my suspicions.).
50+ years in ministry - at the same locale. I respect that - totally respect that.
And yet, from that one locale so many folks globally, even now posthumously, can come up with reasons to hate that messenger, one who planted a flag (Oooh! He said it again. Is he trying to kiss me?!) solidly in the systematic theology side of biblical ministry. God knows that are still waters.
50+ years. Pastor. Messenger. Systematic Theologian. Local and global. And one solid legacy of provoking perpetual kerfuffle by those that call themselves defenders of Jesus Christ. Do it in the name of heaven girls, you'll by justified in the end (Billy Jack, One Tin Soldier Rides Away).
Ah ladies. Cluck, Cluck Cluck till your estrogen hearts are full. I'm switching from Charlie to Trace though. Fair Warning (Van Halen). With homage songs like "Arlington" and "Til The Last Shot's Fired" - makes me proud that a Colonel had such a spiritual impact in my life.