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Thread: LXT Blank and Extra Verses?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2

    Question LXT Blank and Extra Verses?

    Hi, all.

    In the BW7 LXT Version Info (Copyright and Source Information) it
    indicates that the Greek LXX has the following statistics, amongst
    others:

    Number of Verses: 30338
    Number of Blank Verses: 588

    Is there any way in which I could use the search engine to find all of
    those blank verses.

    I have found a previous post that describes a method that seems to
    be applicable to BW6, and I have tried it on BW7, but BW7 has been
    upgraded in such a way apparently that that particular method cannot
    be used anymore.

    I scrolled through the entire LXT, and counted only 576 blank verses
    (12 less than the stated 588 blank verses). I might have miscounted,
    but I am really not in the mood to re-count, as I am sure that you
    will understand. :-) Therefore I am looking for another, quicker way
    of finding all the blank verses, or at least a reference to where all
    those blank verses might be listed.

    *

    Then, when I randomly started reading the book of Esther, I also
    noticed that the Greek LXT and English LXE have a couple of extra
    verses. For example, Esther 1:1 actually contains 19 verses in the
    Greek LXT. These verses are indicated by verse numbers in square
    brackets [1], [2], [3] etc. within the text of Esther 1:1 itself, and
    not as ordinary verse numbers against the left-hand margin, as for all
    the other ordinary verses.

    The verse counter in the top right-hand corner of the Browse window
    apparently does not count these extra verses, and at the end of the
    book of Bel (TH) 1:42, the verse counter shows the last verse in the
    Greek LXT to be verse number 30926, which is exactly 588 more than the
    30338 total number of verses indicated in the LXT Version Info, as
    stated above.

    Is there any way in which I could use the search engine to identify
    all these extra verses also?

    *

    Ultimately, to summarize, I would like to be able to know exactly
    which are the (1) blank verses and (2) extra verses, and where they
    are, at which references, so that I can easily refer to them.

    I hope my questions are sufficiently clear, and I hope that someone would
    be able to give me a clear answer.

    Thanks
    Shem

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    911

    Default

    It is always easier to search for what actually exists rather than for what does not exist. I think that nothing was built into BibleWorks to search for non-existant verses. I am open to being corrected.
    The discrepancy could be at the end of a chapter. If the last verses in a chapter do not exist, BW would not include a verse number for them, so you could not see them in the browse window of BW.
    Perhaps some of these verses represent the differences between two Greek versions, e.g. Dan (chapter 3) and Dat, or Sus and Sut, of Bel and Bet.
    Why do you want to go through all the trouble of finding and counting all these verses?
    You also cannot easily search for "extra" verses, because they are not considered extra verses in the BW database. They are one verse, with sub-verses (in Rahlfs the sub-verses are introduced by Greek letters rather than by Arabic numerals as in BW).
    If you open up the verse map file for LXT, you will see a number of verses which corespond to multiple verses in WTT. Many of those will contain the "extra" verses you seek. These verses also contain Greek words which fill in some of the empty verses you are also seeking. But there are a number of extra verses (e.g. in Proverbs) which do not correspond to anything in the Hebrew Bible, and for that reason they would not be listed in the verse map file.
    Sorry I can't be more helpful.
    Mark Eddy
    Last edited by Mark Eddy; 08-11-2009 at 11:14 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Thanks, Mark Eddy.

    To answer your question as to why I would want to know how much nothing there is in the LXT ;-) ... I'm trying to do a little bit of statistical analysis on the 26 verses in the WTT that apparently contain all 22 basic letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Eventually my investigations have led me to the LXX and the Greek Vamvas OT (MGK), amongst others, as possible control texts. I also find the coincidences of this textual phenomenon among the various versions rather interesting...

    So. In order to do the Math, I need some numbers. At the moment the numbers that the Math requires, seem to be the ones for the missing and extra verses. (At the moment, I'm interested, i.a., in determining how much of a balance there is between the missing verses and the extra verses, and how close the final total number of canonical LXT verses actually is to the number of verses in the WTT, if some extra verses were used to fill in the blank verses. ...not in order to attempt to construct a new, complete text, but merely to get some more accurate numbers for the Math.)

    *

    I emailed service-at-bibleworks and (another?) Mark responded with the following, which I think solves my problem... <Remarks added in pointed brackets below.>

    (Mark sent me some screen shots illustrating the details of the method that he describes. I've tried to attach the two applicable .jpg files, but I'm not sure how effective my attempt has been...)



    Thank you for your message. As you have found there is not a way to find the blank verses through any of the search engines in BibleWorks, as a blank verse does not provide us with a word or character to search for. The only way to do so is to first export and compile a database in order to get a count of the blank verses as the Version Database Compiler does give one a way to report blank verses as a quality control measure for those producing a user created version in BibleWorks. Please note my brief instructions below and the attached document for the results that I found.

    The count of blank verses will only be valid where BibleWorks indicates that the LXT (Ralff's LXX) does not have content that is found for that verse number in another version. It cannot be used to locate the extra verses found internally within a verse in the LXT. However, see my comments below after #1 for a possible workaround.

    1. Export the verses of the LXT. Go to Tools | Export Database to do so. I used the following settings and I named the file lxta.txt.

    <bw1.jpg should go here>

    [The internal numbers within a verse are not searchable as part of the word list for either the LXT or BLM its morphology version. However, perhaps this can serve as a work around search. Open your lxta.txt file in Notepad and scroll down to Est 1:1, the ascii characters for the brackets appear in the form, 1 you can copy those characters and paste it into the Edit | Find field to find the instances where the bracketed verse numbers appear internally in a verse.] <The circumflexed capital I, followed by the 1, and the capital D-bar are exactly as they appear in the email that I received. I hope they remain like that when I finally post this reply.>

    2. Recompile the LXTa as a test version and do not install, but check the Print Blank References. Go to Tools | Version Database Compiler. I used the lxta.txt file and noting the settings highlighted in red I compiled a test lxta without installing.

    <bw2.jpg should go here>

    I then highlighted the blank references displayed in the "4. Build Database" list box and copied and pasted them into the attached file for your convenience.

    I hope that is helpful.

    Sincerely,
    Mark
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    I hope to try this method out soon. It looks like exactly what I need, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

    Thanks for everyone's participation. I really appreciate it. :-)

    Kind regards
    Shem

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