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Thread: Critical Apparatuses, Etc.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    Vous Ítes bienvenu!

    And that almost exhausts my knowledge of French.

    Not bad, Scott. Those are useful words to know! We just had someone stay with us for the last 6 days. They speak only Hebrew and French. It was like I was in heaven. I got to speak two of my favorite languages all day long. Alas, they have caught a flight back home today. So back to English.

    Irving
    By the way, French like Hebrew requires gender and number agreement. So the "bienvenu" needs an "s" at the end of it; "vous" is plural. You could have said "tu es bienvenu," without the "s."

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    By the way, French like Hebrew requires gender and number agreement. So the "bienvenu" needs an "s" at the end of it; "vous" is plural. You could have said "tu es bienvenu," without the "s."
    Ah, heck, I don't worry about the little things, especially in French. My best friend in high school became a top model in Paris (I know, I know), and becamse totally fluent in French. In fact, he made a pile of money, married a French girl, and bought a spread in Normandy, where he still lives to this day, but whenever I'm in Paris, I let him do all my talking.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelphos View Post
    Ah, heck, I don't worry about the little things, especially in French. My best friend in high school became a top model in Paris (I know, I know), and becamse totally fluent in French. In fact, he made a pile of money, married a French girl, and bought a spread in Normandy, where he still lives to this day, but whenever I'm in Paris, I let him do all my talking.
    I understand. I don't blame you. Ah, to be in Paris today! I must be dreaming.

  4. #14
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    Default Critical Apparati

    Hi All,

    We have long wanted to add some sort of apparatus to BW, especially in the New Testament. We were unable to come to terms with the German Bible Society, and they have pretty much closed the door on further discussions. Oh well. It would be nice to have but I personally don't consider it a great loss. The NA27 apparatus is not intended to be exhaustive. It has the basic support for the critical decisions made by the editorial committe and not much more than that. For that reason it is somewhat lacking in objectivity. That it not so much a criticism as an observation. It is not intended to be complete. The Swanson corpus is wonderful, but to be honest it has lots of errors. We have worked with it extensively and were once going to license it. So we know it's weaknesses and strengths in some detail. What is needed is a project to transcribe a large body of manuscripts, tag them morphologically, link them to images and provide a suite of analysis tools for generating apparatti on the fly. That will happen eventually. It is only a matter of time. We actually started a project several years ago to begin this task. In the first few years we wasted a LOT of money and time but after several restarts we feel now that we know how NOT to do it. We are making progress, but at a much slower rate than we had originally anticipated. It is going to be slow going. However, Sinaiticus is finished and several others are near completion. You should start seeing stuff coming out towards the end of the year. At present the plan is to include the material in the base package, though we will have to charge extra for the image disks. I probably won't live to see the project completed, but the only way to get it done is to start. Pray for us.
    Mike

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    Hi All,

    We have long wanted to add some sort of apparatus to BW, especially in the New Testament. We were unable to come to terms with the German Bible Society, and they have pretty much closed the door on further discussions. Oh well. It would be nice to have but I personally don't consider it a great loss. The NA27 apparatus is not intended to be exhaustive. It has the basic support for the critical decisions made by the editorial committe and not much more than that. For that reason it is somewhat lacking in objectivity. That it not so much a criticism as an observation. It is not intended to be complete. The Swanson corpus is wonderful, but to be honest it has lots of errors. We have worked with it extensively and were once going to license it. So we know it's weaknesses and strengths in some detail. What is needed is a project to transcribe a large body of manuscripts, tag them morphologically, link them to images and provide a suite of analysis tools for generating apparatti on the fly. That will happen eventually. It is only a matter of time. We actually started a project several years ago to begin this task. In the first few years we wasted a LOT of money and time but after several restarts we feel now that we know how NOT to do it. We are making progress, but at a much slower rate than we had originally anticipated. It is going to be slow going. However, Sinaiticus is finished and several others are near completion. You should start seeing stuff coming out towards the end of the year. At present the plan is to include the material in the base package, though we will have to charge extra for the image disks. I probably won't live to see the project completed, but the only way to get it done is to start. Pray for us.
    Mike
    Thanks Mike. How about the apparatus for BHS. Is that also something that must be licensed from the German Bible Society? And is that also a closed door right now?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    Thanks Mike. How about the apparatus for BHS. Is that also something that must be licensed from the German Bible Society? And is that also a closed door right now?
    I'm a different Mike, but yeah, BHS also = German Bible Society. And to be fair, the BHS textual apparatus is a joke as far as its thoroughness goes. Hopefully more is available in the new versions of the Hebrew Bible that are being worked on by different sources.
    Michael Hanel
    PhD candidate Classics Univ. of Cincinnati
    MDiv Concordia Seminary
    MA Classics Washington University
    Unofficial BibleWorks Blog
    LibraryThing!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hanel View Post
    I'm a different Mike, but yeah, BHS also = German Bible Society. And to be fair, the BHS textual apparatus is a joke as far as its thoroughness goes. Hopefully more is available in the new versions of the Hebrew Bible that are being worked on by different sources.
    The BHS apparatus is not even truly Massoretic. It is a constructed apparatus by a twentieth-century scholar, not a Jewish Massorete. That's because the Leningrad Codex has serious defects in this area.

    EDIT:

    Oops, I guess you meant the TEXTUAL apparatus, not the Massorah Parva. My mistake. The above still goes for the Massorah Parva. -
    Last edited by Adelphos; 08-11-2009 at 10:46 PM.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBushell View Post
    We were unable to come to terms with the German Bible Society, and they have pretty much closed the door on further discussions.
    [...]
    It is going to be slow going. However, Sinaiticus is finished and several others are near completion.
    Reading this makes me very sad.
    This is such a waste of time and money.
    The group in Muenster is financed for the most part by public money. Why they are not sharing their materials freely is beyond me.

    [Btw. having a monopoly Greek text is per se a bad thing IMO. It is to a certain extent your own fault to let Muenster "dominate the world". For a very long time already there is no international committee anymore.]

    Regarding transcriptions, oh well. Reading that "Sinaiticus is finished", oh man, this has been finished at least two times previously, a) by Muenster and b) by the Sinaiticus project, both times painstakingly carefully. So why a third time? Is this necessary? It seems.

    "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few."
    Now the laborers even all are repeating the same things again and again instead of advance.

    This is so sad.




    PS: The online textual commentary is free. A BW version exists somewhere.
    Best wishes
    Wieland
    <><
    ------------------------------------------------
    Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
    http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
    Textcritical commentary:
    http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by wie View Post
    Reading this makes me very sad.
    Wieland,

    I agree completely. We have tried to work with other organizations but they have shown no iterest in working with us. I honestly don't know why. I have my own thoughts on that but this is not the place to air them.

    Our policy has always been to refrain from charging for the Biblical text and that runs counter to almost every other organization out there. Many organizations actually have contenpt for this point of view. This policy will also apply to our transcriptions and they will be made available eventually for free to other organizations as long as they can provide proof to us that no profit will be made from them. But BibleWorks users will get the first crack at the texts with only a media charge for the CDs.

    You should also keep in mind that multiple transcriptions of the most important manuscripts is not a bad thing. We have found mistakes in contenporary transcriptions of all the manuscripts we have worked on, including Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. Tischendorf himself made mistakes. And there is a large element of subjectivity involved in interpreting some manuscripts, as you well know. That is why we want to publish the transcriptions with images (to the extent that copyright law and academic turf wars permit).

    I don't know how far or how fast we will be able to go with this project. We have already invested (and lost) huge amounts of money. A lot depends on when and if the economy picks up again, and also on whether or not we can interest others in helping financially. Getting external help is hard because there is no money to be made and because some other organizations sneer at us because we don't have a .ORG after our name (there are reasons for this which have to do with eventual government control of non-profits in this country).

    SO it is sad, but not tragic. Hopefully we can help others to refine their own work, just as we learn from theirs.

    Mike

  10. #20
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    Unhappy

    Let me chime in here. I am too disappointed in the GBS policy of making their texts so unaccessible to the masses. I think they are missing out on an untapped revenue flow and a greater appreciation from the digitized text community. Most of what they have garrisoned can be found in other public domain sources. The only problem is they have acted as our filter all these years and we have trusted them with the editorial decisions.
    With the advent of huge capacity devices for storage and wide bandwidths we are getting to the point where it is possible to put all extant manuscripts digitally online or in a storage device for access. The next thing is to digitize all the notes of the textual critics that are available. Once this is done you might have a critical apparatus that would be open source and very usable and free from the restrictions of the GBS.
    Critical Apparatuses take a lot of blood, sweat and tears. You have to really like staring at the computer monitors for hours on end. The big reason they are not being done is because the market is so small and the man hours are so huge. Another big problem is that there is no standard publishing code. Everyone is doing their own thing. It has been talked about for years, but no one has acquired dominance in this field. There are a lot of projects going on that deserve our attention, but there is no cohesion in the direction that they are going.
    What needs to happen is this:
    (1) Projects involving digitizing, transcribing and publishing critical apparatuses need to be identified. When this is done people need to be identified who can bring these projects to completion.
    (2) Publishing of these projects in a universal code that can forever be deciphered from one generation to the next without degradation of the media. Allowances need to made for machine reading of the texts no matter what the operating sytem or platform used.
    (3) People who are willing to dedicate their lives to this endeavor without customary renumeration as in other fields.
    That is my two cents for the year. I have got to get back to keying in von Soden.

    Clint Yale
    Bellingham, WA

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