Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Zechariah 10:12 Question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default Zechariah 10:12 Question

    So, as not to take a tread of topic in the BW General discussion section of the forums this thread in the non-BibleWorks discussion section was started to continue the interesting issues or questions raised on the other thread that did not directly deal with BibleWorks.

    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    Hey Steve,
    ...I couldn't help but wonder if your motivation for the search was prompted by Zech 12:10 ("'et 'asher daqaru").
    Irving

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Miller View Post
    Irving,
    That's amazing. Yes, you hit the nail on the head.
    Can you shed any light on the meaning?
    -Steve Miller
    Detroit
    I am not Irving, but I'll give a few of the typical answer till he gets back to you:

    according to the Keil and Delitzsch commentary on the OT BW user created edition:


    The suffix in אלי (to me) refers to the speaker. This is Jehovah, according to Zec 12:1, the creator of the heaven and the earth.את־אשׁר דּקרוּ, not “Him whom they pierced,” but simply “whom they pierced.”את, that is to say, is not governed by hibbı̄tū as a second object, but simply refers to אלי, to me, “whom they pierced,” את־אשׁר is chosen here, as in Jer 38:9, in the place of the simpleאשׁר, to mark אשׁר more clearly as an accusative, since the simple אשׁר might also be rendered “who pierced (me):” cf. Ges. 123, 2, Not. 1. Dâqar does not mean to ridicule, or scoff at, but only to pierce, thrust through, and to slay by any kind of death whatever (cf. Lam 4:9). And the context shows that here it signifies to put to death. With reference to the explanation proposed by Calvin, “whom they have harassed with insults,” Hitzig has very properly observed: “If it were nothing more than this, wherefore such lamentation over him, which, according to the use of ספד, with על governing the person, and from the similes employed, is to be regarded as a lamentation for the dead?” It is true that we have not to think of a slaying of Jehovah, the creator of the heaven and the earth, but simply of the slaying of the Maleach Jehovah, who, being of the same essence with Jehovah, became man in the person of Jesus Christ. As Zechariah repeatedly represents the coming of the Messiah as a coming of Jehovah in His Maleach to His people, he could, according to this view, also describe the slaying of the Maleach as the slaying of Jehovah. And Israel having come to the knowledge of its sin, will bitterly bewail this deed. עליו does not mean thereat, i.e., at the crime, but is used personally, over him whom they have pierced. Thus the transition from the first person (אלי) to the third (עליו) points to the fact that the person slain, although essentially one with Jehovah, is personally distinct from the Supreme God. The lamentation for the only son (yâshı̄d: cf. Amo 8:10) and for the first-born is the deepest and bitterest death-wail. The inf. abs. hâmēr, which is used in the place of the finite verb, signifies making bitter, to which mispēd is to be supplied from the previous sentence (cf. מספּד תּמרוּרים, Jer 6:26).
    The historical fulfilment of this prophecy commenced with the crucifixion of the Son of God, who had come in the flesh. The words הבּיטוּ אלי את־אשׁר דּקרוּ are quoted in the Gospel of John (Joh 19:37), according to the Greek rendering ὄψονται εἰς ὅν ἐξεκέντησαν, which probably emanated not from the lxx, but from Aquila, or Theodotion, or Symmachus, as having been fulfilled in Christ, by the fact that a soldier pierced His side with a lance as He was hanging upon the cross (vid., Joh 19:34). If we compare this quotation with the fact mentioned in Joh 19:36, that they did not break any of His bones, there can be no doubt that John quotes this passage with distinct allusion to this special circumstance; only we must not infer from this, that the evangelist regarded the meaning of the prophecy as exhausted by this allusion. The piercing with the spear is simply looked upon by him as the climax of all the mortal sufferings of Christ; and even with Zechariah the piercing is simply an individualizing expression for putting to death, the instrument used and the kind of death being of very subordinate importance. This is evident from a comparison of our verse with Zec 13:7, where the sword is mentioned as the instrument employed, whereas dâqar points rather to a spear. What we have observed respecting the fulfilment of Zec 9:9 by the entry of Christ into Jerusalem, also applies to this special fulfilment, viz., that the so to speak literal fulfilment in the outward circumstances only served to make the internal concatenation of the prophecy with its historical realization so clear, that even unbelievers could not successfully deny it. Luke (Luk 23:48) indicates the commencement of the fulfilment of the looking at the slain one by these words: “And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts.” (For the smiting of the breasts, comp. Isa 32:12, ספד על שׁדים.) “The crowds, who had just before been crying out, Crucify him, here smite upon their breasts, being overpowered with the proofs of the superhuman exaltation of Jesus, and lament over the crucified one, and over their own guilt” (Hengst.). The true and full commencement of the fulfilment, however, shows itself in the success which attended the preaching of Peter on the first day of Pentecost, - namely, in the fact that three thousand were pricked in their heart with penitential sorrow on account of the crucifixion of their Saviour, and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Act 2:37-41), and in the further results which followed the preaching of the apostles for the conversion of Israel (Acts 3-4). The fulfilment has continued with less striking results through the whole period of the Christian church, in conversions from among the Jews; and it will not terminate till the remnant of Israel shall turn as a people to Jesus the Messiah, whom its fathers crucified. On the other hand, those who continue obstinately in unbelief will see Him at last when He returns in the clouds of heaven, and shriek with despair (Rev 1:7; Mat 24:30).
    according to Walter C. Kaiser, JR The Messiah in the Old Testament

    see pages 223~226

    Much controversy surrounds the translation of this text. The 1988 New Jewish Publication Society translation of the Tanakh(i.e., the OT) renders Zechariah 12:10 as: "but I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me. about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing grief as over a first born." The 1896 Jewish translation, in an appendix to the Revised Version, read: "And they [i.e., the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem] shall look up to me because of Him whom they [i.e., the nations which came up against Jerusalem] have pierced.".........


    ...But, what of the difference between most translation and the Jewish version listed above? The most difficult fact that these Jewish translations must face in that the "me"(they will look on me) and "him" (will grieve him) both refer to the same person...



    ...The subject of the verb "look" and "pierce" is the same in Hebrew...



    ..."While a few manuscripts do read "him" instead of "me," all the ancient versions, the greater majority of Hebrew manuscripts read "me"...



    ..."While the Septuagint has rendered the Hebrew verb daqar as to " grieve" or to "insult," the word is never so used in the OT. It always has the sense of a literal piercing(e.g., Zec 13:3). Surely King Josiah died from a literal piercing not an insult or grieving!...




    Last edited by bkMitchell; 11-23-2010 at 11:35 PM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,206

    Default

    Steve and Brian,

    I think the comments of both K&D and Kaiser are spot on. Thanks for providing those Brian. And Kaiser's statement that the subjects of the verbs hibitu and daqaru must be one and the same is without doubt (to me, anyway!) true. By the way, one of the amazing contributions of Zech to our understanding of the Angel of the Lord is that YHWH and Mal'akh YHWH are seen to be separate and distinct persons. So while the Angel of the Lord in numerous other OT passages shares all of the characteristics of deity, in Zech, he is seen to be distinct from YHWH. This comes as no surprise of course to we who accept God's triunity. In addition, it accords beautifully with John's words in John 1:1. The Logos was with God. But he also was God. That is, he is God, but separate and distinct from the Father.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,206

    Default

    Hey Brian, where can I get that BW created Keil and Delitzsch database?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    Hey Brian, where can I get that BW created Keil and Delitzsch database?
    You can acquire that commentary module at the BibleWorks blog's module page here: Link
    Just Scroll down to till you see the heading commentaries and you'll see it there.



    Also, a word about Kaiser. I really did not do justice to his book, because I was too lazy to type it all out. However, he discusses the passage and it's place in the rest of the chapter in much more detail. Before, he begins the topic he deals with sensitive issue regarding the how the passage was/is miss-used by the anti-Semitic.
    Last edited by bkMitchell; 11-25-2010 at 06:40 PM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  5. #5

    Default

    Thanks Brian & Irving,

    I'm a new BW7 user, and one thing I see is that I should download the user modules. Is Kaiser also a BW module?

    The main reason for my search is that I am having a discussion with an orthodox Jew on the verse. He wants to translate the last part of Zec 12:10 as: "They will look unto Me with the one whom they pierced." Meaning that Israel and the pierced one together look unto God. I think that he thinks "the one whom they pierced" is Jesus, but won't say it.

    I don't think the et can mean "with" here, but that discussion is a bit complicated.

    I was also interested in whether "et asher" should be translated "whom they pierced" or "at him whom they pierced".

    I agree with K&D and Kaiser, but I disagree with K&D on the above minor point. He says et asher here is not a 2nd object of "look", but just means "whom", as if it just said asher. I looked at all the et asher's preceded by some sort of noun & all these et asher phrases are objects of the preceding verb.
    et asher
    in Jer 38:9 is translated as just "whom" by most, but the real sense is that it is a 2nd object of the verb "done evil" not a modifier of Jeremiah. I think the meaning is: "...these men have done evil in all that they have done to Jeremiah the prophet in that they have cast him into the dungeon". NAB translates it, "... these men have been at fault in all they have done to the prophet Jeremiah, casting him into the cistern."

    So I would translate the last part of Zec 12:10 "they shall look unto Me at Him whom they pierced".

    There is not much difference in meaning except that the mystery of the distinctness of God and the pierced one is there more.

    Yours in Christ,
    Steve Miller
    Detroit
    www.voiceInWilderness.info

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default תלמוד בבלי נב:א

    Here is a short excerpt from the Talmud that concerns the concept of 'Messiah Ben Joseph' and 'Messiah Ben David' as well as something about the 'evil eye'. In this Talmudic discussion the verses in Zechariah that we have been pondering are quoted.

    וספדה הארץ משפחות משפחות לבד משפחת בית דוד לבד ונשיהם לבד אמרו והלא
    דברים ק"ו ומה לעתיד לבא שעוסקין בהספד ואין יצר הרע שולט בהם אמרה תורה אנשים לבד ונשים לבד עכשיו שעסוקין בשמחה ויצה"ר שולט בהם על אחת כמה וכמה הא הספידא מאי עבידתיה פליגי בה רבי דוסא ורבנן חד אמר על משיח בן יוסף שנהרג וחד אמר על יצה"ר שנהרג בשלמא למאן דאמר על משיח בן יוסף שנהרג היינו דכתיב והביטו אלי את אשר דקרו וספדו עליו כמספד על היחיד אלא למאן דאמר על יצר הרע שנהרג האי הספידא בעי למעבד שמחה בעי למעבד אמאי בכו כדדרש רבי יהודה לעתיד לבא מביאו הקב"ה ליצר הרע ושוחטו בפני הצדיקים ובפני הרשעים צדיקים נדמה להם כהר גבוה ורשעים נדמה להם כחוט השערה הללו בוכין והללו בוכין צדיקים בוכין ואומרים היאך יכולנו לכבוש הר גבוה כזה ורשעים בוכין ואומרים היאך לא יכולנו לכבוש את חוט השערה הזה ואף הקב"ה תמה עמהם שנאמר כה אמר ה' צבאות כי יפלא בעיני שארית העם הזה בימים ההם גם בעיני יפלא א"ר אסי יצה"ר בתחילה דומה לחוט של בוכיא ולבסוף דומה כעבותות העגלה שנאמר הוי מושכי העון בחבלי השוא וכעבות העגלה חטאה תנו רבנן משיח בן דוד שעתיד להגלות במהרה בימינו אומר לו הקב"ה שאל ממני דבר ואתן לך שנאמר אספרה אל חוק וגו' אני היום ילדתיך שאל ממני ואתנה גוים נחלתך וכיון שראה משיח בן יוסף שנהרג אומר לפניו רבש"ע איני מבקש ממך אלא חיים אומר לו חיים עד שלא אמרת כבר התנבא עליך דוד אביך שנאמר חיים שאל ממך נתתה לו וגו' דרש ר' עוירא ואיתימא ר' יהושע בן לוי שבעה שמות יש לו ליצה"ר הקב"ה קראו רע שנאמר כי יצר לב האדם רע מנעוריו משה קראו ערל שנאמר ומלתם את ערלת לבבכם דוד קראו טמא שנאמר לב טהור ברא לי אלהים מכלל דאיכא טמא שלמה קראו שונא שנאמר אם רעב שנאך האכילהו לחם ואם צמא השקהו מים כי גחלים אתה חותה על ראשו וה' ישלם לך אל תקרי ישלם לך אלא ישלימנו לך ישעיה קראו מכשול שנאמר סולו סולו פנו דרך הרימו מכשול מדרך עמי יחזקאל קראו אבן שנאמר והסרתי את לב האבן מבשרכם ונתתי לכם לב בשר יואל קראו צפוני שנאמר ואת הצפוני ארחיק מעליכם ת"ר ואת הצפוני ארחיק מעליכם זה יצה"ר שצפון ועומד בלבו של אדם והדחתיו אל ארץ ציה ושממה למקום שאין בני אדם מצויין להתגרות בהן את פניו אל הים הקדמוני שנתן עיניו במקדש ראשון והחריבו והרג תלמידי חכמים שבו וסופו אל הים האחרון שנתן עיניו במקדש שני והחריבו והרג תלמידי חכמים שבו ועלה באשו ותעל צחנתו שמניח אומות העולם ומתגרה בשונאיהם של ישראל כי הגדיל לעשות אמר אביי ובתלמידי חכמים יותר מכולם כי הא דאביי שמעיה לההוא גברא דקאמר לההיא אתתא נקדים וניזיל באורחא אמר איזיל אפרשינהו מאיסורא אזל בתרייהו תלתא פרסי באגמא כי הוו פרשי מהדדי שמעינהו דקא אמרי אורחין רחיקא וצוותין בסימא אמר אביי אי מאן דסני לי הוה לא הוה מצי לאוקומיה נפשיה אזל תלא נפשיה בעיבורא דדשא ומצטער אתא ההוא סבא תנא ליה כל הגדול מחבירו יצרו גדול הימנו אמר רבי יצחק יצרו של אדם מתגבר עליו בכל יום שנאמר רק
    Last edited by bkMitchell; 11-25-2010 at 11:48 PM.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Miller View Post
    Is Kaiser also a BW module?
    Sorry, he is only in Book form

    The main reason for my search is that I am having a discussion with an orthodox Jew on the verse. He wants to translate the last part of Zec 12:10 as: "They will look unto Me with the one whom they pierced." Meaning that Israel and the pierced one together look unto God.
    Wow, now that is an original translation! I have never heard of this understanding before.

    I agree with K&D and Kaiser, but I disagree with K&D on the above minor point. He says et asher here is not a 2nd object of "look", but just means "whom", as if it just said asher.
    Very interesting.

    I looked at all the et asher's preceded by some sort of noun & all these et asher phrases are objects of the preceding verb.
    I have access to a syntactically database(outside of BW) and I plan to run some searches on the Phrasal-objects and verbs in the case of et asher. BibleWorks has not yet released a syntactically database, but I am pretty sure that they have one already and are trying to convert it into emdros and code it into BW9(but don't take my word for it, I might be crazy).

    Also, I might be able to figure out something thing with the morphological texts in BibleWorks and the GSE that makes syntax 'like' searches possible. Also, Bibleworks 8 has a good resource on syntax I'll check it out and get back to you later.

    So I would translate the last part of Zec 12:10 "they shall look unto Me at Him whom they pierced".
    I have never though of it that way before. I really like this discussion; it's fun!
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Hello Steve Miller,

    I am sorry I took so long to get back to you.
    I hope you are still reading the forums.

    Okay
    Here, is I think the answer to your original question.


    In the BHS there are a total of 62 occurrences where:

    x-Qatal clauses
    in which Conjunctive phrases
    with Et asher are followed by a phrase, labeled verbal Predicate

    Genesis 9:24
    Genesis 18:19
    Genesis 27:45
    Genesis 28:15
    Exodus 10:2
    Leviticus 9:5
    Numbers 32:31
    Numbers 33:4
    Deuteronomy 4:3
    Deuteronomy 7:18
    Deuteronomy 9:7
    Deuteronomy 24:9
    Deuteronomy 25:17
    Deuteronomy 29:15
    Joshua 2:10
    Joshua 5:1
    Joshua 9:3
    Joshua 9:24
    Joshua 24:7
    Judges 14:6
    Judges 18:27
    1 Samuel 12:24
    1 Samuel 15:2
    1 Samuel 15:16
    1 Samuel 16:4
    1 Samuel 25:35
    1 Samuel 28:9
    1 Samuel 30:23
    1 Samuel 31:11
    2 Samuel 19:20
    2 Samuel 19:38
    2 Samuel 21:11
    1 Kings 2:5
    1 Kings 5:22
    1 Kings 8:24
    1 Kings 8:25
    1 Kings 11:10
    1 Kings 18:13
    2 Kings 5:20
    2 Kings 7:12
    2 Kings 8:5
    2 Kings 10:10
    2 Kings 19:11
    2 Kings 20:3
    Isaiah 38:3
    Isaiah 55:11
    Jeremiah 7:12
    Jeremiah 23:25
    Jeremiah 38:9
    Jeremiah 45:4
    Jeremiah 51:12
    Ezekiel 23:22
    Zechariah 12:10
    Ruth 2:17
    Ruth 2:18
    Ruth 2:19
    Esther 9:23
    1 Chronicles 4:10
    2 Chronicles 6:15
    2 Chronicles 6:16

    Hope, that helps.
    If, let me know what's wrong and we can run the query again.

    Grace and Peace,
    Brian
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,206

    Default

    Hey Brian, did you arrive at that with the Eep Talstra database, by any chance?

    Irving

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    471

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ISalzman View Post
    Hey Brian, did you arrive at that with the Eep Talstra database, by any chance?
    Irving
    Yes, I did. I have been toying with it for a while, and finally I think I have gotten the hang of it. My wife got me access to the database as a birthday gift last September.

    While, I am very sure that BibleWorks is working on getting their own syntactical base ready; I think in the mean time the BW GSE along with a little ingenuity enables one to come close at approximating certain kinds of syntactical like searches or 'grammatical constructions'.
    Brian K. Mitchell
    חפשו בתורה היטב ואל תסתמכו על דברי
    http://www.adfontes.mitchellbk.com/


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •