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Thread: 2 Questions

  1. #1
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    Default 2 Questions

    Does anyone know of an English Bible version that includes an inline, parenthetical meaning for proper nouns - names and places? I think this would be very useful since all other words are translated based on meaning but names and places are basically a transliteration of the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic.

    Am currently reading the Apocrypha using the KJA and NRS English versions along with the BGT Greek. Many verses have an entry in the KJA but not for the NRS or BGT. Is there a Greek or Aramaic source version for the KJA included in BW?

    Thanks,
    Al Cantley

  2. #2

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    For question 1: No Bible I am familiar with does that, although many will offer a note of explanation as to the meaning of the name. Often the translation of names (both personal and place) is governed by tradition, so most translations will stick with what most everyone has done for the sake of continuity instead of translating the meaning.

    For question 2: My guess is that there is some textual variation in the verses you have found. There is no Apocrypha in BW that I know of other than that in the LXX (which is what you are looking at in BGT). What are some specific places you have found? The OT Apocrypha can be problematic, both in verse references and simply finding the material (some material goes by multiple names and traditionally is found in more than one place).
    Michael H. Burer
    Assistant Professor of New Testament Studies
    Dallas Theological Seminary

  3. #3

    Default Greek for Apocrypha

    I just did a quick look, and I see that there are some significant issues with the alignment of the Greek (BGM/BGT) and the English of the KJA and the NRS in the book of Esther. (Using Esg instead of the Hebrew-based Est.) I submitted a report to BW support for this text.
    Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman
    Professor of Biblical Studies
    Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg
    ltsg.edu - CrossMarks.com
    Biblical Studies and Technological Tools

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MGVH
    I just did a quick look, and I see that there are some significant issues with the alignment of the Greek (BGM/BGT) and the English of the KJA and the NRS in the book of Esther. (Using Esg instead of the Hebrew-based Est.) I submitted a report to BW support for this text.
    Prof, Hoffman,
    If you can send me what "issues" you have found, I'll take a look at them (God-willing sooner rather than later). I provided the verse map files for the apocrypha that BW7 is using. Since the additional verses in the Greek of Esther are quite long, it does not always give a desirable display to map everything to Esg, if the majority of the book should be mapped to Esther in Hebrew. We have discussed making these additions in the LXX a separate book for BW's purposes, but that creates problems when searching (It either gives too many hits, if the additions are left in LXT where they are and separated out also, or if these long verses are separated out, browsing the main text wouldn't display them). So for now we have to live with some shortcomings in mapping for Greek additions to Esther.
    However, the KJA and NRS mapping files in BW7 are greatly improved over the same files in BW6.
    Al,
    Are you using BW6 or BW7? I can send you updated verse maps for KJA and NRS, if you're still in BW6.
    Another possibility is that in some of the apocrypha there are two separate texts included in the Rahlfs LXX (and also in BW). The English translations in BW are currently mapped to the main LXX text (Rahlfs) not to Tobit S or to Bel or Susanna in Th. The editors of some newer translations such as NRS often have decided to translate these alternate texts instead of what Rahlfs considered the main LXX. But mapping to both texts can lead to display problems when "show all LXX varients" is activated. So there is some room for improvement, and suggestions are welcome.
    Mark Eddy
    markeddy@adams.net
    Last edited by Mark Eddy; 03-20-2006 at 05:57 PM.

  5. #5
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    Mark,

    I am using BW 7, latest patch. Below is text from Sirach 17 from the NRS followed by the same verses from the KJA. Note that verses 16, 18, and 21 are empty in the NRS. How can I get the source text used by the KJA translators?

    NRS
    Sirach 17:11-23 11 He bestowed knowledge upon them, and allotted to them the law of life. 12 He established with them an eternal covenant, and revealed to them his decrees. 13 Their eyes saw his glorious majesty, and their ears heard the glory of his voice. 14 He said to them, "Beware of all evil." And he gave commandment to each of them concerning the neighbor. 15 Their ways are always known to him; they will not be hid from his eyes. 16 17 He appointed a ruler for every nation, but Israel is the Lord's own portion. 18 19 All their works are as clear as the sun before him, and his eyes are ever upon their ways. 20 Their iniquities are not hidden from him, and all their sins are before the Lord. 21 22 One's almsgiving is like a signet ring with the Lord, and he will keep a person's kindness like the apple of his eye. 23 Afterward he will rise up and repay them, and he will bring their recompense on their heads.

    KJA
    Sirach 17:11-23 11 Beside this he gave them knowledge, and the law of life for an heritage. 12 He made an everlasting covenant with them, and shewed them his judgments. 13 Their eyes saw the majesty of his glory, and their ears heard his glorious voice. 14 And he said unto them, Beware of all unrighteousness; and he gave every man commandment concerning his neighbour. 15 Their ways are ever before him, and shall not be hid from his eyes. 16 Every man from his youth is given to evil; neither could they make to themselves fleshy hearts for stony. 17 For in the division of the nations of the whole earth he set a ruler over every people; but Israel is the Lord's portion: 18 Whom, being his firstborn, he nourisheth with discipline, and giving him the light of his love doth not forsake him. 19 Therefore all their works are as the sun before him, and his eyes are continually upon their ways. 20 None of their unrighteous deeds are hid from him, but all their sins are before the Lord 21 But the Lord being gracious and knowing his workmanship, neither left nor forsook them, but spared them. 22 The alms of a man is as a signet with him, and he will keep the good deeds of man as the apple of the eye, and give repentance to his sons and daughters. 23 Afterwards he will rise up and reward them, and render their recompence upon their heads.

    Thanks,
    Al Cantley

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcantley
    Mark,

    I am using BW 7, latest patch. Below is text from Sirach 17 from the NRS followed by the same verses from the KJA. Note that verses 16, 18, and 21 are empty in the NRS. How can I get the source text used by the KJA translators?
    Thanks,
    Al Cantley
    The "original" of these verses is not included in BibleWorks. If you have a printed copy of the Rahlfs LXX they are included in the footnotes.
    There are times when KJA seems to have translated from the Vulgate. So you might want to activate VUL as a display version, and you'll see my best guess as to a possible "original" from which KJA made its translation, though in this case BW automatically displays all versions with the same verse numbers as these blank verses in BGT, even though no versions are specifically mapped to these blank verses. BW verse mapping hates a vacume, and so sometimes the verses displayed together are not mapped together. I'll look into this.
    Mark Eddy
    Last edited by Mark Eddy; 03-20-2006 at 06:22 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eddy
    There are times when KJA seems to have translated from the Vulgate.
    Actually, there are a whole plethora of Greek MSS. that cover the Apocrypha. One of the greatest Greek scholars of the KJV translators, John Boys, who debated in Greek and who held lectures strictly in Greek, was one of the translators responsible for translating the Apocrypha, as well, of course, as other parts of the NT, and who was also one of the final editors of the text.

    You will find many differences between the NRS and the KJA because of the wide variety of MSS, both Greek and Latin from what I can tell, although this issue is pretty arcane.

    A book published by Oxford, "The Parallel Apocrypha (1997)" -- General Editor John R. Kohlenberger III -- (I'd give you an ISBN if I could find one) does a pretty good job of noting all the differences. It has the Greek text, the KJV, Douay, Knox, TEV, NAB, NRS, NJB in comparative analysis.

    Mark, you can email me if you need me to look up anything in this work for you.

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