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Peter
04-20-2014, 11:04 AM
Dear friends,

teaching Latin, I want to use more beneficial texts than Ovid (and the old mythological texts) and so forth, that's why I wanted to use the Latin Vulgate for exercises. My thanks goes to BibleWorks for the VULM Version of the Vulgate with the great morphological and lexical Infos (not always correct - but not many Errors). A great help indeed ! Now I'd be interested in an English Translation of the Vulgate - just to control my own Translation. There is something in the Internet: www.vulgate.org (http://www.vulgate.org) - but I haven't checked the qualtity. Is there a modul for Bibleworks of an English Vulgate Translation (maybe the one mentioned above)?
If not please let me know as well !
Yours
Peter, Germany

Donald Cobb
04-20-2014, 11:50 AM
Dear friends,

teaching Latin, I want to use more beneficial texts than Ovid (and the old mythological texts) and so forth, that's why I wanted to use the Latin Vulgate for exercises. My thanks goes to BibleWorks for the VULM Version of the Vulgate with the great morphological and lexical Infos (not always correct - but not many Errors). A great help indeed ! Now I'd be interested in an English Translation of the Vulgate - just to control my own Translation. There is something in the Internet: www.vulgate.org (http://www.vulgate.org) - but I haven't checked the qualtity. Is there a modul for Bibleworks of an English Vulgate Translation (maybe the one mentioned above)?
If not please let me know as well !
Yours
Peter, Germany

Peter, I may be wrong on this one, but I'm pretty sure the Douay-Reims version is based on the Vulgate.

Best wishes during this Easter season
χριστὸς ἀνέστη έκ νεκρῶν

Peter
04-20-2014, 03:35 PM
Peter, I may be wrong on this one, but I'm pretty sure the Douay-Reims version is based on the Vulgate.

Best wishes during this Easter season
χριστὸς ἀνέστη έκ νεκρῶν

Thanks, Donald ! I think that is what I need - there is no German Vulgate Translation available (but planned), so the DR is the best for me currently. Not very modern, but it serves my needs.

Iesus mortuus est et resurrexit - veni cito Domine !

Yours
Peter, Germany

Mark Eddy
04-21-2014, 12:31 AM
Yes, DRA was translated from the Vulgate.
Concerning German translations of the Vulgate: parts of the Apocrypha in Luther's German Bible were translated from the Vulgate, since there was no Greek text available at the time. I would have to look into it more to find out which parts (if not all) those were, and if LUT in BibleWorks actually retains Luther's translation in the Apocrypha, or whether it has been updated too.
Mark Eddy

Peter
04-21-2014, 07:05 AM
Yes, DRA was translated from the Vulgate.
Concerning German translations of the Vulgate: parts of the Apocrypha in Luther's German Bible were translated from the Vulgate, since there was no Greek text available at the time. I would have to look into it more to find out which parts (if not all) those were, and if LUT in BibleWorks actually retains Luther's translation in the Apocrypha, or whether it has been updated too.
Mark Eddy

Dear Mark,
a good hint ! Thank you - I can check this out. One question: do today's English speaking People understand the DRA easily? For me there are some uncommon words contained and I doubt that they are used today. Well, some years old. I think I'll get the German Vulgate Translation when finished, but by now I check my Translations by the DRA and the VULM info, which are very beneficial (thanks again, BibleWorks for including this valuable module - I like it and only some few remarks are disputable).

The DRA is sometimes old fashioned - at least in my Impression as a foreign Reader.

Yours
Peter, Germany

DavidR
04-21-2014, 01:42 PM
An interesting project, Peter! The Douay-Rheims is well known for using terminology that was archaic, obscure, or overly Latinate even for English speakers of its own day (for instance, "predestinated" in Rom 1:4). Modern-day English readers would find many of these terms quite unfamiliar.

I see, by the way, that even Vulgate.org includes the D-R as its English version. Contemporary Catholic versions, of course, are based directly on the Hebrew and Greek, so that there is not much call for a translation of the Vulgate. It's possible that there is a more modern English translation of the Vulgate in existence, whether authorized by the Catholic Church for common use or a more academic/scholarly version; but it might take some research to find this out.

Peter
04-21-2014, 07:13 PM
An interesting project, Peter! The Douay-Rheims is well known for using terminology that was archaic, obscure, or overly Latinate even for English speakers of its own day (for instance, "predestinated" in Rom 1:4). Modern-day English readers would find many of these terms quite unfamiliar.

I see, by the way, that even Vulgate.org includes the D-R as its English version. Contemporary Catholic versions, of course, are based directly on the Hebrew and Greek, so that there is not much call for a translation of the Vulgate. It's possible that there is a more modern English translation of the Vulgate in existence, whether authorized by the Catholic Church for common use or a more academic/scholarly version; but it might take some research to find this out.

As you say this as English native Speaker, I'm somehow satisfied by having some problems with some strange syntactical and semantical ways of the DR Translation, David. Yes: "archaic, obscure, or overly Latinate" fits my impression. But I think it's ok despite for my needs, as I want to use it just as control of my own Translation. The reason is that I want the students to read something beneficial for them and I'm meanwhile bored with the fairy tales of Ovid and the other folks. It's ok to learn Latin by translating these texts, but "qui bono" ?

>Modern-day English readers would find many of these terms quite unfamiliar.
That makes me feel better !

My personal own interest nearby is to check the Latin readings of the Vetus Latina, the hypothetical Greek base text of the Vulgate is not of my uttermost interest. And the Greek text of the modern Revision of the Vulgate is the NA text - which is known. If you have a textcritical interest in the earliest Latin MSS, then see the Publisher's site of the Vetus Latina Editions http://www.vetus-latina.de/ - unfortunately faar to expensive to have them all (at least for me privately).

>"predestinated
I wouldn't have taken this word as unusual - but maybe (I don't know but would be interested) some of the Latin based words imported into English are from the Vulgate or its overliterall and latinized translation as the DR.

>but it might take some research to find this out
Thank you - it's ok for me to have the DR for BibleWorks meanwhile - then sometimes a German translation gets finished (as they did for the LXX recently).


Yours
Peter, Germany

ScottCove
04-21-2014, 11:29 PM
Peter,

You may find the Catholic Public Domain Version helpful. It was finished in 2009, and according to its metadata was translated from the Vulgate. It states:


The Holy Bible, Catholic Public Domain Version, translated from the Latin Vulgate, using the Challoner Douay Rheims as a guide, by Ronald L. Conte Jr. The entire text and all related files are in the public domain.

It can be found online here: http://www.sacredbible.org/catholic/index.htm

Hope this helps,
Scott.

DavidR
04-22-2014, 11:06 PM
Yes, a major reason for the Latinisms of the Douay-Rheims version is that the translators tended to prefer not to actually translate theological technical terms into ordinary English, but to use or even create English words derived from them. Quite an interesting contrast with William Tyndale. (And perhaps with Luther, but I know nothing about Luther's Bible translation.)

Ah yes, the Vetus Latina! My teacher in graduate school, the late Nils Alstrup Dahl, was knowledgeable about that version, and sought to interest his students in it (in the long-ago 1970s!). I did find it somewhat interesting at the time, but haven't thought much about it since then. But it does bring back pleasant memories of trying to understand the issues when I click on the link you provided and see once again the names Bonifatius Fischer, the Erzabtai Beuron, and Hermann Josef Frede!

Peter
04-24-2014, 07:36 AM
Yes, a major reason for the Latinisms of the Douay-Rheims version is that the translators tended to prefer not to actually translate theological technical terms into ordinary English, but to use or even create English words derived from them. Quite an interesting contrast with William Tyndale. (And perhaps with Luther, but I know nothing about Luther's Bible translation.)

Ah yes, the Vetus Latina! My teacher in graduate school, the late Nils Alstrup Dahl, was knowledgeable about that version, and sought to interest his students in it (in the long-ago 1970s!). I did find it somewhat interesting at the time, but haven't thought much about it since then. But it does bring back pleasant memories of trying to understand the issues when I click on the link you provided and see once again the names Bonifatius Fischer, the Erzabtai Beuron, and Hermann Josef Frede!


Luther's is different - he translated the Greek TR Text, provided by Erasmus, not a Latin Vorlage. And he tried to find common German Terms for all the words in the text (he created some very new Terms) - all in all was this endeavor ok, but nowerdays some Translations are exacter. The Vetus latina is just for very interested poeple - but I find it more interesting than the younger Vulgate with ist unified text. But that's just my own personal interest.

It was pleasure getting help here ! Greetings to all helpers !
Yours
Peter

MGVH
04-24-2014, 10:57 AM
Ah yes, the Vetus Latina! My teacher in graduate school, the late Nils Alstrup Dahl, was knowledgeable about that version, and sought to interest his students in it (in the long-ago 1970s!). I did find it somewhat interesting at the time, but haven't thought much about it since then. But it does bring back pleasant memories of trying to understand the issues when I click on the link you provided and see once again the names Bonifatius Fischer, the Erzabtai Beuron, and Hermann Josef Frede!

Just an aside to this discussion, David, but your mention of Dahl gives me an opportunity to recall one of my mentors, the late Don Juel (another of Dahl's students) whose interest in OT/NT matters was handed on to me and accounts for my paying attention to things like the Vetus Latina and things like Field's Hexapla and the Peshitta ...

DavidR
04-24-2014, 05:27 PM
I would only want to add that this is the wonderful thing about being a teacher (and preachers are often teachers too). You do not know how many people you will affect and how broad the influence will be, even if it is seldom traced back to you. If teaching is your gift, use it lovingly and assiduously!

DavidR
04-24-2014, 07:07 PM
Luther's is different - he translated the Greek TR Text, provided by Erasmus, not a Latin Vorlage. And he tried to find common German Terms for all the words in the text (he created some very new Terms) - all in all was this endeavor ok, but nowerdays some Translations are exacter.

Sorry, I wrote a bit too hastily. What I meant was that the Douay-Rheims tended to use or invent Latinate terms rather than using ordinary English, in contrast to Tyndale's practice of using more ordinary English words as he translated the NT from the Greek (such as "overseer" instead of "bishop"). From what you say, it sounds as if Luther's practice was similar to Tyndale's; or, more correctly, that Tyndale followed in Luther's footsteps. Some interesting information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale#Legacy): Tyndale even took over a few of Luther's terms, translating them into English.

Peter
05-05-2014, 01:46 PM
Sorry, I wrote a bit too hastily. What I meant was that the Douay-Rheims tended to use or invent Latinate terms rather than using ordinary English, in contrast to Tyndale's practice of using more ordinary English words as he translated the NT from the Greek (such as "overseer" instead of "bishop"). From what you say, it sounds as if Luther's practice was similar to Tyndale's; or, more correctly, that Tyndale followed in Luther's footsteps. Some interesting information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale#Legacy): Tyndale even took over a few of Luther's terms, translating them into English.

Interestingly enough ! I try to find some examples where Tyndale copied Lutheran terms, or do you by chance know any?
Peter

DavidR
05-05-2014, 06:01 PM
The section of the Wikipedia page to which I linked has a couple of examples, e.g., "mercy seat" for Hebrew kapporet, based on Luther's Gnadenstuhl.

Peter
05-10-2014, 06:32 PM
The section of the Wikipedia page to which I linked has a couple of examples, e.g., "mercy seat" for Hebrew kapporet, based on Luther's Gnadenstuhl.

Oh, yes, the famous "Gnadenstuhl" (mercy seat) - a nice try of Luther but not just up to date any more. The Luther Bible made a "mercy throne" afterwords out of it, so the "seat" became a "throne".

Thanks, David !
Yours
Peter