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Peter
03-28-2013, 06:45 AM
1090
Dear Friends,

I want to search for constructions as in Joh 1,1 QEOS HN hO LOGOS.
But why does my query show verses with the definite article (e.g. 1Cor 3,13 or Rev 18,23) before the first none. I clicked NOT in this word box with the article.
Can you help me - what am I doing wrong ?
Yours
Peter, Germany

MGVH
03-28-2013, 12:39 PM
I think I know what the issue is...
At the start of your query, you specify: [NOT an article] that is at most 3 words from the [noun].
When the search runs, if any of those 3 (actually 4) words before the noun is NOT an article, then it passes the test.
So basically, the NOT is not doing much of anything. (Try running the search with the article but turn off the NOT, and the only results you will eliminate are ones where the verse starts w/ an article.)

There's probably something that could be done using the Range Filters, but I don't understand those. (I'd love to have a tutorial on those.)
You also could try some sub-queries or combining multiple searches, but that's a lot of work.

STILL... I think you can get the results you want w/ your existing query by simply changing that "at most 3" connecting the [NOT article] to the [noun] to "exactly 0."

If you want to get a bit fancier, you can try the query I've attached. You will see how I added multiple [NOT article] boxes and specified "exactly 0" and "exactly 1".... You could add more. (Also note that I added them to the agreement box.)
UPDATE: See newer QF file below

Peter
03-29-2013, 12:13 PM
Dear Mark,

thank you for your help ! I just tried your suggestion. Do you know why John 1,1 doesn't appear with it ? My intention is to find instances like this verse.
Yours
Peter, Germany

MGVH
03-29-2013, 01:58 PM
Well, I wasn't paying attention when the search eliminates the very verse you were using as an example!
Two things:

Adding the two NOT boxes kicked out the John 1.1 text (though I'm not entirely sure why)
In the NOT box properties, I unchecked the "Exclusion words eliminate entire verse"

With this query you won't get exactly what you want, but it's manageable. (E.g., the first hit is Mat 13.38 which has the article split from the noun.)

Donald Cobb
03-29-2013, 02:03 PM
1090
Dear Friends,

I want to search for constructions as in Joh 1,1 QEOS HN hO LOGOS.
But why does my query show verses with the definite article (e.g. 1Cor 3,13 or Rev 18,23) before the first none. I clicked NOT in this word box with the article.
Can you help me - what am I doing wrong ?
Yours
Peter, Germany

Hello Peter,

Tell me if this is what you're trying to do (I haven't tried loading your query). I first did a search in BGM with the GSE that reproduced the structure of Jn 1.1 (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος). Make sure you exclude punctuation!

I then right-clicked in the search results window on "Make search results new search limits".

Then in the search pane, I made the following query: '!*@dn* *@nn* *eimi *@dn* *@nn*

That worked for me and I came up with the following verses:1 Rs 18,39; 4 Ma 2,24; Sir 36,17; Mt 13,38; Mc 2,28; Jn 1,1; Ac 28,4

Let me know if that helps.

Blessings during this Easter Weekend,

Don Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France

Peter
03-30-2013, 10:50 AM
Dear Don and Mark,

thank you indeed ! That helps - one problem is left: There are many verses with this construction that the queries doesn't find. Maybe it's possible to have it kind of exacter. I hope you are willing to provide some further help.
Yours
Peter, Germany

Donald Cobb
03-30-2013, 01:17 PM
Dear Don and Mark,

thank you indeed ! That helps - one problem is left: There are many verses with this construction that the queries doesn't find. Maybe it's possible to have it kind of exacter. I hope you are willing to provide some further help.
Yours
Peter, Germany

Peter,

What are some of the verses that the query didn't turn up? Looking at them might give a better idea of what needs to be fine-tuned. I have to admit I've since tried the same query in the Apostolic Fathers, and had a little trouble too, so it's not perfect yet...

Don

Peter
03-31-2013, 08:29 AM
Dear Don,
thank you for asking ! One verse missing would be Luke 6,4: Κύριός ἐστιν ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
Here we have an anartrous Noun, a conectinng verb, and a noun preceeded by an article. That's exactly the same construction as in Joh 1,1.
Is fine tuning possible ? Thank you in advance !
Yours
Peter, Germany

Michael Hanel
03-31-2013, 11:32 AM
Dear Don,
thank you for asking ! One verse missing would be Luke 6,4: Κύριός ἐστιν ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
Here we have an anartrous Noun, a conectinng verb, and a noun preceeded by an article. That's exactly the same construction as in Joh 1,1.
Is fine tuning possible ? Thank you in advance !
Yours
Peter, Germany

Note the reason why this verse is excluded. The text (BGT) for Luke 6:5 is κύριός ἐστιν τοῦ σαββάτου ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου. The reason it is excluded is because a genitive phrase follows the verb. Your search string does not allow for any intervening phrases. If you want to allow for intervening phrases, you would have to specifically indicate that.

But you could change the search to pick it up by adding *2 to it which would allow for two intervening words.

E.g.
'!*@dn* *@nn* eimi@* *2 *@dn* *@nn*

Peter
03-31-2013, 11:37 AM
Dear Michael, my search was in Robinson-Pierpont 2005 (BYM), that's why the difference. Do you - by chance - know, why my initial query hasn't been successful ?
Yours
Peter, Germany

Peter
03-31-2013, 11:39 AM
Dear Michael, my search was in Robinson-Pierpont 2005 (BYM), that's why the difference. Luk 6,5 has a different reading.
Yours
Peter, Germany

Donald Cobb
03-31-2013, 01:05 PM
Dear Michael, my search was in Robinson-Pierpont 2005 (BYM), that's why the difference. Luk 6,5 has a different reading.
Yours
Peter, Germany

Peter, if you try with BYM, I think you will find Lk 6,5 in your list. I just gave it a try and it was included.

Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν!

Donald

Peter
04-01-2013, 12:09 PM
Dear Donald, thank you for this hint ! One question is still remaining: why is such a query not possible with my GSE-Query? I'd prefer this solution as I want to add further copula verbs as MENW, GINOMAI to EIMI. That would make the GSE solution necessary, but I don't know how to do it.....
But I'm glad you and Mark have helped so far !
Yours
Peter, Germany

Michael Hanel
04-01-2013, 12:15 PM
Dear Donald, thank you for this hint ! One question is still remaining: why is such a query not possible with my GSE-Query? I'd prefer this solution as I want to add further copula verbs as MENW, GINOMAI to EIMI. That would make the GSE solution necessary, but I don't know how to do it.....
But I'm glad you and Mark have helped so far !
Yours
Peter, Germany

You can do that query through the GSE, you just have to make sure it is designed correctly. I find it quicker to work with the command line than the GSE, so what I would do is make the search on the command line. Hit enter. Hit the up arrow (that should reload the query in the command line) and then open the GSE. The query should then be shown there graphically. Once you have that just edit the box with EIMI to include whatever other verbs you want.

Peter
04-01-2013, 08:58 PM
Thank you, Michael ! That works indeed fine - a good hint. But I still can't realize that the GSE-Query should exclude verses with an def. article before the first noun. I get Mat 13,38 as hits: ὁ δὲ ἀγρός ἐστιν ὁ κόσμος, but I just want the same syntax as in Joh 1,1, that means without a forfronted article. I tried to set the intervening words to at most 3, which doesn't do it.
Do you have any suggestions ?
Yours
Peter, Germany

Donald Cobb
04-02-2013, 02:10 AM
Thank you, Michael ! That works indeed fine - a good hint. But I still can't realize that the GSE-Query should exclude verses with an def. article before the first noun. I get Mat 13,38 as hits: ὁ δὲ ἀγρός ἐστιν ὁ κόσμος, but I just want the same syntax as in Joh 1,1, that means without a forfronted article. I tried to set the intervening words to at most 3, which doesn't do it.
Do you have any suggestions ?
Yours
Peter, Germany

Peter,

Your last message puts the finger on the difficulty I've been having. What you have to do, after the query I mentioned above, is add another step (actually two others). First, you have to create a query that filters out an article followed by one word (in this case the δέ). That will look like this:

'!o@dn* !1 *@nn* eimi *@dnn* *@nn

This will eliminate your Mt 13 passage. BUT, it still leaves 1 Jn 3,4 and Lk 8,11, which both have an article before the first noun but no postpositive particle (i.e., ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία).

So you have to 1) make the search results the new search limits and 2) add an additional query that filters out the article:

'!o@dn* *@nn* eimi *@dnn* *@nn

Actually you can just call up the previous query and remove the !1 part.

This will give you a list of six remaining passages: 1 Rs 18,39; 4 Ma 2,24; Sir 36,17; Mc 2,28; Jn 1,1; Ac 28,4.

After you've done this, you can go back and do the same thing with ὑπάρχω, μένω and other verbs. I think that with the GSE you should also be able to introduce some kind of variable so that it searches on εἰμί OR ὑπάρχω OR μένω. How to do it, though, is another question (any takers???).

Now, my question is: isn't there an easier way of doing all this? It seems to me that it should be possible to introduce some variables within the same search so that the query eliminates, at the same time, constructions that have 1) an article followed by one intervening word, then the noun (i.e., Mt 13) AND 2) an article immediately followed by a noun (i.e., 1 Jn 3,4; Lk 8,11). But for the moment, I can't seem to do that. In doing this query in other corpora (i.e., the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus and Philo) the number of hits is sufficiently limited so that it's easier to filter out manually the ones that don't fit. But, obviously, that precludes doing a query on all same language texts, so it's not a perfect solution by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps someone else will be able to shed some light on this.

Don Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France

Donald Cobb
04-02-2013, 08:40 AM
Dear Donald, thank you for this hint ! One question is still remaining: why is such a query not possible with my GSE-Query? I'd prefer this solution as I want to add further copula verbs as MENW, GINOMAI to EIMI. That would make the GSE solution necessary, but I don't know how to do it.....
But I'm glad you and Mark have helped so far !
Yours
Peter, Germany

Hello again Peter,

Disregard the previous post. After looking through the help file, I think I've found what you are looking for. The important thing is doing a subquery that has all the elements of Jn 1.1 plus a definite article that precedes the construction. It's then that whole subquery that is excluded from the search. I hadn't picked up on that detail previously and it skewed my results. This is what it will look like (the query on the left is very compressed, but it's actually about the same as the second, just without the fronted article) :


1094


This gives me, with just one search, the following results: Gn 46,34; Lv 13,51; 1 Rs 18,39; 2 Ch 33,13; 4 Ma 2,24; Ps 99,3; Sir 36,17; Mc 2,28; Jn 1,1; Ac 28,4.
What still needs to be done is adding variables for the different verbs.

Blessings,

Don Cobb

Peter
04-02-2013, 09:14 AM
Simply smart and terrific, Don ! I would have never been able to do this on my own, as I still don't understand the deeper meaning of subqueries (although I'm a BibleWorker since over 10 years).
One question: could you post the query file in this threat ? That would be helpful and I can study it in detail. Maybe other readers are interested in it as well.
Please write a PN to me - I want to give you a little present for this helpful query-file, as now I have what I wanted and I'm happy :-)
Yours in Christ !
Peter, Germany

Donald Cobb
04-03-2013, 07:26 AM
Simply smart and terrific, Don ! I would have never been able to do this on my own, as I still don't understand the deeper meaning of subqueries (although I'm a BibleWorker since over 10 years).
One question: could you post the query file in this threat ? That would be helpful and I can study it in detail. Maybe other readers are interested in it as well.
Please write a PN to me - I want to give you a little present for this helpful query-file, as now I have what I wanted and I'm happy :-)
Yours in Christ !
Peter, Germany

Hello Peter,

As per your suggestion, I'm adding the query file for those it may interest.

1095

It was helpful for me too, to see a little better how subqueries function.

Just as a quick follow-up, I tried redoing this same basic query, but with a subquery adding different verbs, such as ὑπάρχω, μένω and γίνομαι. I grouped these together under a merge box checked for "OR". There's probably something I haven't figured out yet, but you can't seem to set agreement boxes (i.e., "at most 2 words intervening") between a word box and a merge box. If anyone has any suggestions, that would be great! In this specific instance, it doesn't seem to really make a difference, since replacing ειμι with any one of these three verbs in a query that just replicates the structure of Jn 1,1 turns up no hits (same thing in the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus and Philo).

Blessings,

Don Cobb