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robrecht
06-09-2012, 04:42 PM
Hi, all.

I'm contemplating buying BibleWorks 9 or Logos 4 Original Language package. I would very much appreciate any helpful advice people have, especially those who use or have used both programs recently.

1. One of my concerns [was] that the very cluttered 'look' of BibleWorks. Is there a full screen toggle where the menu bars can be eliminated from the screen? Does one always need to have three windows (search, browse, analysis) open all the time? Is the size of each of three these windows adjustable?
- This concern has been erased in Post #s 6, 11, 12. Thanks.

2. Does anyone have a list of things that one can do on BibleWorks that cannot be done on Logos? Or vice-versa? On of the things that I read in a comparison of older versions of both programs was that purely syntactical searches were able to be done on Logos but not on BibleWorks. I've heard that this is no longer be the case, but I am very interested in this aspect so if anyone has some specific information along this lines, please share.

3. I am already aware of the larger assortment of books that can be added to Logos, but I'm not interested in all their older commentaries or confessional or apologetic, even devotional or self-help types of works. I am interested in their more modern academic stuff, eg, the 3-volume Davies & Allison commentary on Matthew, especialy if they can be linked to the textual analysis part of Logos.
- I've learned that the Logos search engine can be downloaded for free and specific individual works an be downloaded from Logos. One does not need to buy one of their base packages. So, although their individual works are expensive (they would be expensive on top of one of their base packages too), it really is economical to use the full BibleWorks package and purchase whatever additional items one would like in an electronic format from Logos. Perhaps not as integrated of a solution as many would like, but it does allow for the best of both worlds.

4. One of the biggest advantages of BibleWorks for me is the parallel Hebrew-LXX module. It seems like that is not available on Logos. Correct? Not correct.
Some Logos users consider their ability to do parallel MT-LXX work superior to BibleWorks. They do not need to show the English line of their interlinears (I dislike English interlinears) and their text is searchable morphologically and the excellent Tov 'commentary' on the LXX can be integrated into their search tools. It is expensive ($100), but it is not merely an e-book.

5. Another substantial advantage of BibleWorks are the morphologically analyzed complete works of Josephus, Philo, and the apostolic fathers. It seems like that is not available on Logos. Correct? Not correct. But not sure yet how expensive it would be to duplicate this on Logos.

6. How good are Logos' iPhone/Andoid apps? Those would be very nice to have depending upon functionality. No longer an issue. If I use the free Logos search engine with some free and individually purchased items, I would be able to use the Logos iPhone/Android apps, which are free to users of the Logos search engine.

7. I've read that searches on BibleWorks are much faster. Any other things that I should be thinking about?

Sorry for so many questions, but I hope some of this information would be very helpful to others looking into this software. Many years ago, when I was doing my doctoral studies I used L-Base by Silver Mountain Software as well as GRAMCORD (free version for some work I did on the Greek analysis), but I have not used anything comparable in a Windows environment.

Thanks for your time!

Michael Hanel
06-09-2012, 05:10 PM
What exactly is it that you want to do with the software? Both have their strengths and weaknesses and do not make for an apples to apples comparison. Do you have any experience with either in the past? My short answer would be if you're interested in textual stuff, working with Greek and Hebrew themselves, BibleWorks is the best solution. If you see the languages as less important as primary sources and instead engage yourself primarily in secondary literature (commentaries and monographs) then Logos is probably what you will find most useful. If I had to choose only one, BibleWorks is the easy choice for me, but your answer depends on your needs.

robrecht
06-09-2012, 05:59 PM
What exactly is it that you want to do with the software? Both have their strengths and weaknesses and do not make for an apples to apples comparison. Do you have any experience with either in the past? My short answer would be if you're interested in textual stuff, working with Greek and Hebrew themselves, BibleWorks is the best solution. If you see the languages as less important as primary sources and instead engage yourself primarily in secondary literature (commentaries and monographs) then Logos is probably what you will find most useful. If I had to choose only one, BibleWorks is the easy choice for me, but your answer depends on your needs.Hi, Michael.

Thanks for your response. I am mostly interested in studying the original texts, especially the LXX translation of the Hebrew scriptures, Targums, the use of the Hebrew/LXX scriptures in the New Testament, and Greek syntactical searches of NT, LXX, Josephus, and other ancient Greek texts.

I've been assuming, based on my reading so far, that BibleWorks will be the best fit for me, but now it seems like I missed some of the important add-ons available in Logos, eg, E. Tov's commentary on the LXX and morphological modules for fathers, Philo, etc.

Lee
06-09-2012, 07:01 PM
It's been a couple of years now, but I had similar thoughts about the BibleWorks interface before I purchased it. Here is the thread I created back then: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?4518-Bibleworks-vs-Logos-vs-Accordance-Interface

My thoughts are different now, for the most part. Although the interface may look somewhat cluttered, it actually makes for streamlined study. It takes very few clicks (usually one) to get to where you want to go and to do what you want to do.

As far as BW vs. Logos, they are both great programs, but have different strengths. Logos is primarily a library program related to the Bible, BW is primarily designed for directly analyzing and exegeting the Biblical text. To an extent, each additionally does what the other does, but those are their primary focuses and strengths.

Michael Hanel
06-09-2012, 07:02 PM
Hi, Michael.

Thanks for your response. I am mostly interested in studying the original texts, especially the LXX translation of the Hebrew scriptures, Targums, the use of the Hebrew/LXX scriptures in the New Testament, and Greek syntactical searches of NT, LXX, Josephus, and other ancient Greek texts.


I don't have a ready comparison for you resource-by-resource, whether BibleWorks will have everything you want. The upside and downside of Logos is that you can get just about everything, but for a price. If you compare what you would spend in BibleWorks for the same resources in Logos, you will see how BibleWorks is the better deal by far. That goes a long way in my own decision-making. You can see on BW's website (http://www.bibleworks.com/content/full.html) all the resources that come with it. Of things you mentioned, BibleWorks does not currently have a syntax module [databases are morphologically tagged, not syntactically tagged], which you can find in Logos. But it does have things Logos does not like the Manuscript Project and the vast apparatus in the CNTTS database. I think you mentioned on the other site that you were going to try out both for a month and see which you prefer. I would suggest that both programs have their own unique learning curve, but again the best decision to make in my mind is to decide which program will enable you to do what you want best. Whether you get either program you're going to end up getting more resources than you could ever possibly use, but even then you'll always wish you had more.

robrecht
06-09-2012, 07:34 PM
It's been a couple of years now, but I had similar thoughts about the BibleWorks interface before I purchased it. Here is the thread I created back then: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?4518-Bibleworks-vs-Logos-vs-Accordance-Interface

My thoughts are different now, for the most part. Although the interface may look somewhat cluttered, it actually makes for streamlined study. It takes very few clicks (usually one) to get to where you want to go and to do what you want to do.

As far as BW vs. Logos, they are both great programs, but have different strengths. Logos is primarily a library program related to the Bible, BW is primarily designed for directly analyzing and exegeting the Biblical text. To an extent, each additionally does what the other does, but those are their primary focuses and strengths.Thanks, Lee. That was a good thread. With respect to my question about hiding menus and windows, this post was especially encouraging:

My advice is:
(1) Get BibleWorks (and you did)
(2) Load/boot up BibleWorks and look at it's interface
(3) Click on "Veiw" scroll down and click on Show/Hide then de-check Toolbar and Analysis Window
(4)Notice, the much simpler or less crowded interface you now have.
(5)You may or may not be in favor of that arrangement, but you know now that it is possible to change BibleWorks. For example you can also have the analysis placed at the bottom of the browse window, change font size and color, and much more. So, take sometime to explore and play with BibleWorks many options.

BibleWorks is a highly configurable program, allows you to rearrange, and manipulate various aspects of it's interface. If you find that have two or more different arrangements you are fond of you can use the Enable configuration manager option to save these different arrangment under specific titles.

robrecht
06-09-2012, 07:46 PM
Thanks, Michael.

This concerns me:


... Of things you mentioned, BibleWorks does not currently have a syntax module [databases are morphologically tagged, not syntactically tagged], which you can find in Logos. ...

I had asked the support staff here about syntactical searches: When searching the morphologically analyzed Greek NewTestament, can I search for strings of grammatical tags, independent of specific words. For example, could Isearch for all occurrences of three consecutive genitives?

Response: Searches can be constructed to find specific forms, or itcan be set to broaden the range of search results. The search that you described, which itrequires a little extra setup, is certainly possible.

We may be using 'syntax' a little differently. Can you explain a bit more about what Logos has in terms of syntactical tags that BibleWorks does not have?

Dan Phillips
06-09-2012, 07:47 PM
I wrote Why I love BibleWorks (http://www.teampyro.org/2010/10/why-i-love-bibleworks-8.html) about version 8. Everything I said about 8 is true of 9, and then some.

Michael Hanel
06-09-2012, 08:03 PM
Thanks, Michael.

I had asked the support staff here about syntactical searches: When searching the morphologically analyzed Greek NewTestament, can I search for strings of grammatical tags, independent of specific words. For example, could Isearch for all occurrences of three consecutive genitives?

Response: Searches can be constructed to find specific forms, or itcan be set to broaden the range of search results. The search that you described, which itrequires a little extra setup, is certainly possible.

We may be using 'syntax' a little differently. Can you explain a bit more about what Logos has in terms of syntactical tags that BibleWorks does not have?

An opinion is only worth the breath it costs, but Syntax databases still are not "all that." You'd have to compare Logos' offerings, because they have different ones, and they all follow slightly different methodologies/philosophies, which require you to know how and why they call different parts what. It's all subjective and more reflective of current ideas of syntax than ancient ones. By comparison, morphological analysis is much more objective. Although there still is room for philosophical debate (do you call a neuter adjective a a neuter adjective, or if it's functioning as an adverb, call it that instead? Do you make the call that a given verb is middle, passive or deponent or just tag it as all of them and let the user decide? etc.), they are considered much more reliable and fixed. The word is either a genitive or it's not.

But there is a relationship between morphology and syntax. So for the question you asked, you can certainly think of it as a syntactical question, but it's also a morphological one. And yes you can easily search for that in BibleWorks. It may take you a little bit to figure out how you do searches like this in BibleWorks, but once you learn, it's pretty simple. Your search is a bit more complicated because you want to find any three genitive words in a row. And since this could mean a genitive definite article, noun, adjective, or verb the search is more complicated and would probably best be done with the Graphical Search Engine. If you do a search on the command line though for "'*@ng* *@ng* *@ng*" you'd get results for three genitive nouns in a row with nothing in between them. So yes, it is possible, but it will require you to learn how to perform searches. Or just ask around here; there are usually plenty of people willing to offer advice.

[I would want to double check this, but I think this string "'*@[vadrn]*g* *@[vadrn]*g* *@[vadrn]*g*" would do what you initially asked about]

robrecht
06-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Thanks, again, Michael.

I know what you mean about the debatable aspects of morphological analysis, learned this when helping to correct the GRAMCORD morphological database to bring it into line with the standard published works. Paul Miller was very accommodating with poor doctoral students for this kind of help and provided many of us with free versions. I may even still have the floppy disks somewhere!

DavidR
06-09-2012, 09:09 PM
Just to address one of the original questions briefly, regarding the "cluttered" looking main window, one of the strengths of BibleWorks (which may or may not also exist in Logos, I don't know) is the ability to view text in a variety of different ways.

If you just want to look at a stretch of Greek or Hebrew text, say, without search and analysis windows, you can open a new browse window, which will "float" above the original BW window, and read in it, mark it up, etc.

If you want to look at the Hebrew and LXX of a particular passage side by side, with no other complications, you can open a parallel versions window with just those two versions (or any other versions you want), again separate from the main BibleWorks window.

If you want to look at parallel biblical passages side by side, from the gospels, say, or from Kings and Chronicles, there are predefined synopsis views, or you can create one of your own fairly easily. Again, this is in a window separate from the main window.

So you can pretty well customize your viewing and study of the text to your needs and preferences. You can have multiple instances of these types of windows open, and parallel and synopsis window setups can be saved to use again later.

You also mentioned at one point studying the use of the Jewish scriptures in the NT. BW comes with Gleason Archer and Gregory Chirichigno's Old Testament Quotations in the New Testament, which is fairly useful for this. It also comes with the NET Bible notes, which include cross-references to Hebrew Bible quotations; hovering the mouse over the reference will pop up a window with the text, and you can configure what versions appear in the popup.

So, from a user-interface perspective, there is just a lot of configurability in BibleWorks. I have no idea how that compares to Logos, not having used the latter, but I think it's a real strength of BW.

bkMitchell
06-10-2012, 01:51 AM
Hi, all.

One of my concerns is that the very cluttered 'look' of BibleWorks. Is there a full screen toggle where the menu bars can be eliminated from the screen? Does one always need to have three windows (search, browse, analysis) open all the time? Is the size of each of three these windows adjustable?



Does this answer your first question?
994




Yes, the windows are adjustable and the analysis window can be hidden or stacked below the main window, too.
995

robrecht
06-10-2012, 08:41 AM
Thank you very much, Brian. That is very helpful. Someone should make a movie about you and call it The Life of Brian.

DavidR
06-10-2012, 01:06 PM
WRT the use of the Jewish Scriptures in the NT, I should also have mentioned the X-Refs tool in the Analysis Window, which allows the viewing of cross-references found in various versions and tools plus a consolidated list for each biblical verse compiled from those versions and tools. I just used it to locate uses of Ps 34:8 in 1 Pet 2:3 and Heb 6:5 very quickly.

Nord Zootman
06-10-2012, 02:52 PM
I use both programs because they both have different strengths. One advantage BW has that no one has mentioned yet is that the note taking ability works well. Logos has made strides to improve their notes, but if you want to take notes within the program, BibleWorks is better.

bkMitchell
06-10-2012, 07:40 PM
Thank you very much, Brian. That is very helpful. Someone should make a movie about you and call it The Life of Brian.

My roommate in University used to, to use the same joke.

In terms of Morphologies esp for the Greek New Testament I feel BibleWorks is the best. Why?

(1) It has far more Greek Texts in the Basepackage

(2) Over 20 years BibleWorks puts a lot of effort into correcting their texts. And, they take errors very seriously. Report an error and you'll find out that within 24 hours it will either be correct or someone will talk to you about it. I recall on thought there was an error in the BDB a while back and the posted about it here on the forums and in less than a few hours someone from BW got back to them about it. For, the release of version 9 they did a lot of updating of all their original language texts.

(3) The Version Datebase Compiler. BibleWorks allows you to input your own Hebrew, Greek, tagged texts (as well any other language) and have then act and be search like text native to it. You will have to compile Greek and Hebrew in the CCAT format.

BibleWorks does not yet have any searchable Syntactical Database.
The only 'commercially available' programs that have those are Accordance and Logos at the moment

Here is the reasoning behind that:


We have avoided syntactical databases because when push comes to shove they have limited value for advanced scholars and tend to be very difficult to use for beginners. By nature they are very subjective. In order to understand a complex verse an interpreter needs to immerse himself in the Greek text and syntactical databases quickly become just one opinion among many. Like commentaries, they are useful to consult, but should never be relied on. That does not mean that we won't add any such databases. This just explains why we have not seen it as a priority. We have investigated alternatives and they tend to be too expensive to put them in the base package and to expensive as external modules for most of our users. We decided not to do it until we could do our own so that it could be incorporated in the base package and made available for everyone. This is really important to us. It is on our list but we have no idea at this point how much Windows 8 will gum up development works.

robrecht
06-10-2012, 08:39 PM
Thanks, Brian. Very helpful.

bkMitchell
06-10-2012, 10:21 PM
... learned this when helping to correct the GRAMCORD morphological database to bring it into line with the standard published works. Paul Miller was very accommodating with poor doctoral students for this kind of help and provided many of us with free versions. I may even still have the floppy disks somewhere!

Now, that's cool!:cool:
I was required to use Gramcord for Windows back in the 90's.
I still have a lot of respect for the Gramcord program and it's offshoot Accordance.

Joan Korte
06-11-2012, 07:03 AM
I use both programs because they both have different strengths. One advantage BW has that no one has mentioned yet is that the note taking ability works well. Logos has made strides to improve their notes, but if you want to take notes within the program, BibleWorks is better.

I use both programs, too, and I agree about the notes feature in Bibleworks. I do not use notes at all in Logos. There are users who complain about typing lag in notes and overall, that the more notes you take, the more you may slow down L4. Another consideration to be made is the hardware demands. L4 demands far more in hardware to run the program at a speed the user may term "snappy".
These are all observations that I have distilled from the Logos forums. Check out their wiki to see the numerous ways users try to get L4 running acceptably. Hope this helps. I like books so I need the library features in Logos. I do the original language study in Bibleworks and then link to L4 for commentary use.

bobvenem
06-11-2012, 08:04 AM
The two features of Logos that I find valuable (and would love to see on BW) are the reverse interlinears and the expanded graphing of word and text results (Logos' interactive word study graphs are quite instructive). Beyond that, Logos is simply a library reader (the syntax analysis tools are still pretty weak).

Dan Phillips
06-11-2012, 11:35 AM
... One advantage BW has that no one has mentioned yet is that the note taking ability works well.

Er, ahem: that should be "that no one other than Dan Phillips has mentioned yet, and he made a big extended deal about it in the linked article."

robrecht
06-11-2012, 12:12 PM
The two features of Logos that I find valuable (and would love to see on BW) are the reverse interlinears and the expanded graphing of word and text results (Logos' interactive word study graphs are quite instructive). Beyond that, Logos is simply a library reader (the syntax analysis tools are still pretty weak).
Hi, Bob.

What are advantages of the Logos interlinears over the BibleWorks parallel texts?

Thanks, Robrecht

Nord Zootman
06-11-2012, 12:52 PM
Er, ahem: that should be "that no one other than Dan Phillips has mentioned yet, and he made a big extended deal about it in the linked article."

Sorry Dan! I didn't go to your linked article. You are actually the person who got me interested in BibleWorks to begin with. It is on every time my computer is on and I use dropbox to keep my notes current between my desktop and my lap top. Can I be forgiven if I also mention your two great books? I am teaching proverbs on Sunday nights and have recommended your commentary to the congregation. My deacons don't know it yet, but they will be reading "The World Tilting Gospel" this next year.:)

Dan Phillips
06-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Wow, Nord: I make a snarky little quip, and you reward me with three very kind, encouraging, day-making remarks. Thank you so much.

(c:

bkMitchell
06-11-2012, 06:43 PM
7. I've read that searches on BibleWorks are much faster.

Yes, normal Boolean searches take less than a second.
There is more that one can think about, too. For example the flexibility of building Morphological queries(at least for me) is much greater in BibleWorks.
For, example searches(normal, lema, regular expressions, etc) can be conducted by:
(1) Mouse click
(2) Command line
(3) The GSE = Graphic Search Engine

With the GSE one can construct syntax like queries. One can specify the location in the verse of individual elements and the phenomenon he/she is searching for. One can build very complex searches with intervening elements, morphological features, proximity, location, and more. It is also easy to use to compare an Original language text with/or against a translation. The GSE isn't very pretty, but it is very powerful! And, it's one my favorite features of BibleWorks.

bobvenem
06-12-2012, 08:29 AM
What are advantages of the Logos interlinears over the BibleWorks parallel texts?


First, they are true interlinears, in that the translated words are directly under their original language sources (BW displays either parallel lines or parallel columns, but not word-for-word interlacing). Second, several different resources can be turned on at will depending on the level of detail required for each word (BW also has the resources available, but they are in the analysis window, not embedded in the interlinear as Logos does). And finally, the reverse interlinear uses the English as the base text rather than Greek or Hebrew as in a traditional interlinear, making Biblical language use more accessible to the English Bible student with limited grasp of Greek and Hebrew (BW does not at present have any reverse interlinear modules).

Donald Cobb
06-12-2012, 09:27 AM
First, they are true interlinears, in that the translated words are directly under their original language sources (BW displays either parallel lines or parallel columns, but not word-for-word interlacing). Second, several different resources can be turned on at will depending on the level of detail required for each word (BW also has the resources available, but they are in the analysis window, not embedded in the interlinear as Logos does). And finally, the reverse interlinear uses the English as the base text rather than Greek or Hebrew as in a traditional interlinear, making Biblical language use more accessible to the English Bible student with limited grasp of Greek and Hebrew (BW does not at present have any reverse interlinear modules).

Although I question the real usefulness of interlinears, I would point out that BW does have something quite close to a reverse interlinear: several English versions (KJV,NASB) and other language versions (Segond in French, etc.) are fully tagged so that by simply hovering your mouse over a word, you get a complete parsing of the Greek or Hebrew word behind it. You can also do that with the "word tips", which immediately give you the parsing, plus the Strongs number and a basic gloss. So the the only real difference from a reverse interlinear is that you don't have the two rows with the English translation directly above the Greek/Hebrew text.

Having said that, I personally wouldn't recommend an electronic interlinear (especially a reverse one) to anybody. The long-term usefulness of any Bible program is the ease with which you can access the Biblical text (as well as other Greek/Hebrew texts from the same period) and, through regular reading, become comfortable with reading the original text itself. The problem with interlinears is that they strongly inhibit that regular direct contact. BW is particularly suited for building familiarity with the original languages, since it comes, not only with the NT and LXX but also, as part of the base package, Josephus, Philo, the Apostolic Fathers, and the OT pseudopigrapha (did I mention that all these are fully tagged and searchable?). These alone in Logos, as separate add-ons, would cost your far more than the base package of BW9. Plus, in BW9, you also get photo-facsimiles of several of the major NT manuscripts and full electronic transcriptions!

Donald Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France

robrecht
06-12-2012, 10:41 AM
Thanks, Bob. I agree with Donald, however, the disadvantages of interlinears for those who have at least a basic familiarity with the original language. That said, I'm wondering if Logos allows one to customize the display of the reverse interlinears so that the original language is displayed first. More generally, is there any other usefulness at of the reverse interlinears, if one wants to prioritize one's interactions with the original language. Obviously, you can get a quick assessment of the character of a specific translation.

calvary
06-13-2012, 05:28 AM
I use both programs, too, and I agree about the notes feature in Bibleworks. I do not use notes at all in Logos. There are users who complain about typing lag in notes and overall, that the more notes you take, the more you may slow down L4. Another consideration to be made is the hardware demands. L4 demands far more in hardware to run the program at a speed the user may term "snappy".
These are all observations that I have distilled from the Logos forums. Check out their wiki to see the numerous ways users try to get L4 running acceptably. Hope this helps. I like books so I need the library features in Logos. I do the original language study in Bibleworks and then link to L4 for commentary use.

I suppose the pro's and con's have been flushed out pretty thoroughly, but I figured I'd add a +1 to what Joan Korte said. The notes feature of BW is a big bonus for me. And the overall speed of BW over logos in every respect is ginormus. :)

Dave

bobvenem
06-13-2012, 09:25 AM
Thanks, Bob. I agree with Donald, however, the disadvantages of interlinears for those who have at least a basic familiarity with the original language. That said, I'm wondering if Logos allows one to customize the display of the reverse interlinears so that the original language is displayed first. More generally, is there any other usefulness at of the reverse interlinears, if one wants to prioritize one's interactions with the original language. Obviously, you can get a quick assessment of the character of a specific translation.

Answering your second comment first, to make the original language display first would create a standard interlinear.

As for the first point (inhibiting familiarity with the original language), I teach a course on using original language tools to those who use only the English Bible. It gives the students a taste of the original without requiring them to learn another language. Learning Greek and Hebrew is preferable.

robrecht
06-13-2012, 10:42 AM
Answering your second comment first, to make the original language display first would create a standard interlinear.

As for the first point (inhibiting familiarity with the original language), I teach a course on using original language tools to those who use only the English Bible. It gives the students a taste of the original without requiring them to learn another language. Learning Greek and Hebrew is preferable.

Can that be done in Logos, ie, making the reverse interlinears appear as standard interlinears? Is there a true parallel of the MT and LXX?

I agree that interlinears can be useful for introductory students.

ISalzman
06-13-2012, 01:13 PM
Although I question the real usefulness of interlinears, I would point out that BW does have something quite close to a reverse interlinear: several English versions (KJV,NASB) and other language versions (Segond in French, etc.) are fully tagged so that by simply hovering your mouse over a word, you get a complete parsing of the Greek or Hebrew word behind it. You can also do that with the "word tips", which immediately give you the parsing, plus the Strongs number and a basic gloss. So the the only real difference from a reverse interlinear is that you don't have the two rows with the English translation directly above the Greek/Hebrew text.

Having said that, I personally wouldn't recommend an electronic interlinear (especially a reverse one) to anybody. The long-term usefulness of any Bible program is the ease with which you can access the Biblical text (as well as other Greek/Hebrew texts from the same period) and, through regular reading, become comfortable with reading the original text itself. The problem with interlinears is that they strongly inhibit that regular direct contact. BW is particularly suited for building familiarity with the original languages, since it comes, not only with the NT and LXX but also, as part of the base package, Josephus, Philo, the Apostolic Fathers, and the OT pseudopigrapha (did I mention that all these are fully tagged and searchable?). These alone in Logos, as separate add-ons, would cost your far more than the base package of BW9. Plus, in BW9, you also get photo-facsimiles of several of the major NT manuscripts and full electronic transcriptions!

Donald Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France

I am with you, Donald. I have Logos, but I have absolutely no use for the interlinears or reverse interlinears. I would much rather view the text in BibleWorks.

bobvenem
06-14-2012, 07:41 AM
Can that be done in Logos, ie, making the reverse interlinears appear as standard interlinears? Is there a true parallel of the MT and LXX?

To be honest, I don't know. I use one reverse interlinear (the KJV), and then only on a limited basis in the classroom. I use BW for everything else.

robrecht
06-14-2012, 08:00 AM
Thanks, Bob.

robrecht
06-14-2012, 08:01 AM
Someone has told me that BbileWorks can display multiple versions, but only one verse at a time. Is that really true? Seems to me I've seen otherwise but don't remember exactly where.

Nick Laurence
06-14-2012, 08:36 AM
Someone has told me that BbileWorks can display multiple versions, but only one verse at a time. Is that really true? Seems to me I've seen otherwise but don't remember exactly where.

That's not correct - Bibleworks can display more than one version (indeed numerous versions) over as many verses as you require. Whether you'll fit them all on the screen might be an issue - but that's more about your screen size (and possibly your visual acuity!).

robrecht
06-14-2012, 08:41 AM
That's not correct - Bibleworks can display more than one version (indeed numerous versions) over as many verses as you require. Whether you'll fit them all on the screen might be an issue - but that's more about your screen size (and possibly your visual acuity!). Thanks, Nick, that's very good to know!

Nick Laurence
06-14-2012, 08:42 AM
I am with you, Donald. I have Logos, but I have absolutely no use for the interlinears or reverse interlinears. I would much rather view the text in BibleWorks.

Another "plus one" on this. I've recently bought Accordance which can also do interlinears. I've taken a look, but nothing more. I'm glad Bibleworks has got me used to dealing with the original language text; I think I would have been far too tempted to rely on an interlinear had one been available to me, which would have been to the detriment of my original language skills (which are admittedly still far from brilliant). My Accordance is firmly switched to BHS and GNT, and will remain so.

Bibleworks (and Accordance) has excellent tools for language learning/teaching - look on their website for hints and tips; interlinears, in my view, aren't one of them.

bkMitchell
06-14-2012, 08:53 AM
Someone has told me that BbileWorks can display multiple versions, but only one verse at a time. Is that really true? Seems to me I've seen otherwise but don't remember exactly where.

I'll answer your question with a picture. After, all a picture is worth a thousand words:
996

And one more for good measure:
997

robrecht
06-14-2012, 12:12 PM
That's not correct - Bibleworks can display more than one version (indeed numerous versions) over as many verses as you require. Whether you'll fit them all on the screen might be an issue - but that's more about your screen size (and possibly your visual acuity!).
I'll answer your question with a picture. After, all a picture is worth a thousand words:

And one more for good measure:
Nick & Brian, or anyone, I would assume that all the versions could be made to scroll together, is that not correct??

bkMitchell
06-14-2012, 12:17 PM
Nick & Brian, I would assume that all the versions could be made to scroll together, is that not correct??
Yes, they can be made to scroll together or as BibleWorks programs call it synchronize.

DavidR
06-14-2012, 01:06 PM
Just jumping in to say that yes, the versions can be scrolled together by book, chapter, and verse. If they do get out of sync, there's a button to re-sync them. You can also add Analysis Window material (notes from the version, Greek or Hebrew lexicon, etc.) below each version in the view in the first picture that Brian posted.

ISalzman
06-14-2012, 01:21 PM
Nick & Brian, or anyone, I would assume that all the versions could be made to scroll together, is that not correct??

Yes, synchronous scrolling can be toggled on or off.

robrecht
07-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Just a quick note to say thanks again to all here for your helpful replies. I finally ordered BibleWorks yesterday. Now that I'm recuperating from major foot surgery (old running injury), I figure I'll have more time to start working on that learning curve.

Thanks, Robrecht

ISalzman
07-26-2012, 01:08 PM
Enjoy, you'll love the program and all of its capabilities. It is studying the Word as it truly deserves to be studied. There is not a day in the week that I am not in BibleWorks. Remember to run the Updater to bring your installation to the most recent build. The good thing is that the program is set by default to automatically update itself. Still a good thing to do manually upon your initial installation.

Lee
07-26-2012, 01:08 PM
Just a quick note to say thanks again to all here for your helpful replies. I finally ordered BibleWorks yesterday. Now that I'm recuperating from major foot surgery (old running injury), I figure I'll have more time to start working on that learning curve.

Thanks, Robrecht

Good for you! I know you'll enjoy your time getting acquainted with BW. Here's wishing you a speedy recovery, and God's blessing and BW's assistance as you study His word.

Michael Hanel
07-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Just a quick note to say thanks again to all here for your helpful replies. I finally ordered BibleWorks yesterday. Now that I'm recuperating from major foot surgery (old running injury), I figure I'll have more time to start working on that learning curve.

Thanks, Robrecht

Do take time to watch some of the training videos and, when in doubt, hold your mouse over wherever you have a question about how something works and press F1. Or you can ask things here and generally people are quick to respond if the answer is pretty straightforward.

bkMitchell
07-28-2012, 05:05 AM
Just a quick note to say thanks again to all here for your helpful replies. I finally ordered BibleWorks yesterday. Now that I'm recuperating from major foot surgery (old running injury), I figure I'll have more time to start working on that learning curve.

Thanks, Robrecht

Hello Robrecht,

It is good to hear you! I'll keep you in my prayers as you recover from foot surgery.
Thank you for taking the time to tell us of your decision to purchase Bible Works. AND of course I hope you enjoy BibleWorks.

To help you along the way here are a few tips:

(1) Check out the BibleWorks Wiki has some tutorials and web videos(Based on version 8) that will help you learn to use BibleWorks:
http://wiki.luthersem.edu/bin/view/BibleWorks/WebHome

(2)You also might want to check out the Video presentation of a full Bible Works Training session at Luther Seminary's Free Range Leaning:
http://www.luthersem.edu/technology/freerangelearning.aspx?m=3725&post=187

(3) And of Course BibleWorks9 also comes with a lot of informative videos to help you on your journal to proficiency

Grace and Peace,
Brian

robrecht
08-28-2012, 03:04 PM
Anyone else contemplating this decision should also know that Accordance will be available for Windows next year.

calvary
08-28-2012, 05:00 PM
If I plan on using a PC, I don't see a very compelling reason to buy Accordance for Windows when I already have BW & Logos. They do offer a couple of resources in their packages I wouldn't mind having (Spicq & Jenni). Other than that, it's like reinventing the wheel IMO.

Dave

robrecht
08-28-2012, 08:00 PM
If I plan on using a PC, I don't see a very compelling reason to buy Accordance for Windows when I already have BW & Logos. They do offer a couple of resources in their packages I wouldn't mind having (Spicq & Jenni). Other than that, it's like reinventing the wheel IMO.

DaveOf course. I was thinking of anyone reading this thread because they were trying to decide between BW & Logos.

calvary
08-29-2012, 12:21 AM
Of course. I was thinking of anyone reading this thread because they were trying to decide between BW & Logos.

Oh my, I really wasn't directing that at you. Sorry if I made you think that. :) I was just speaking generally.

Dave

robrecht
08-29-2012, 07:00 PM
No problem!

AbramKJ
11-18-2012, 11:21 PM
In case anyone is still thinking through these issues, I've just written a bit (ok... more than "a bit") in a comparative review (http://abramkj.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/which-bible-software-program-should-i-buy-comparison-of-bibleworks-accordance-and-logos/) of the "big three" Bible software programs.