PDA

View Full Version : Help with Constructing a GSE Search



ISalzman
04-06-2012, 12:43 PM
Hi all. I am interested in constructing a GSE search designed to find instances - if any - where BGM/BGT does not translate the Hebrew particle הִנֵּה
with the Greek ἰδοὺ (or ἴδε, etc.). Grateful for any helpful suggestions. Thanks much.

Irving

MGVH
04-06-2012, 03:25 PM
Actually, I would start by using the Tov Parallel Hebrew-Greek.
Open via button bar or Resources > Parallel Hebrew-Greek
Click on the א=α with binoculars icon
Type in hinnah and click on the binoculars to start the search

Your results will need some further sorting due to the way things are handled, and things are complicated because this word is used so frequently. Still, you will quickly see that you don't have to look at the 847 times where it is translated with ιδου. You will still have to check out all the others to see exactly what's up.

DavidR
04-06-2012, 04:51 PM
Well, I couldn't resist trying this out myself for fun. I hope it will suit Irving in the actual work he's doing, but even at first glance the results are fascinating. For instance, on 4 occasions הִנֵּה is represented by ὥσπερ, and all of them are in dream reports in the Joseph story, הִנֵּה / ὥσπερ introducing the narration of the dream's content. Great tool!

ISalzman
04-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Thanks, Mark. Good suggestion. I tried it. It's not perfect, albeit. When you type "Hinneh" in the search box (the consonants, anyway), it finds other (= different) words spelled similarly (Gen 6:2, for example). But a decent method and good suggestion overall.

We typically call "hinneh" a deictic particle ("deictic," meaning having the function of pointing something out or pointing to something). Would you guys think that ἰδοὺ could be thought of in similar terms (i.e., as a deictic particle)?

Irving

ISalzman
04-06-2012, 07:15 PM
Well, I couldn't resist trying this out myself for fun. I hope it will suit Irving in the actual work he's doing, but even at first glance the results are fascinating. For instance, on 4 occasions הִנֵּה is represented by ὥσπερ, and all of them are in dream reports in the Joseph story, הִנֵּה / ὥσπερ introducing the narration of the dream's content. Great tool!

Interesting observation, David! Thanks for weighing in.

MGVH
04-06-2012, 11:29 PM
According to BDAG, ιδου is a "demonstrative or presentative particle that draws attention to what follows"

And here's the entry from the EDNT (you should be able to figure out the Greek parts):
[EDNT] ivdou, idou see, behold
VIdou, is literally the aor. mid. imv. sg. (ivdou/, from o`ra,w), which is written as a demonstrative particle with the acute accent. The number of occurrences in the NT writings are (in order of frequency): Matthew 62, Luke 57, Revelation 26, Acts 23, Mark 7, James 6, John 4, Hebrews 4, Paul (only in 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, Romans) 9, Jude, and 1 Pet 1 each.


VIdou, serves, like Heb. hinn¢h, to enliven the narrative, either to awaken attention (e.g., Luke 22:10; John 4:35; 1 Cor 15:51; 2 Cor 5:17; Jas 5:9; Jude 14; Rev 1:7; 9:12; 11:14), to introduce something new (e.g., after a gen. absolute in Matt 1:20; 2:1, 13, etc.: kai. ivdou,; Matt 2:9; 3:16, etc., also Luke-Acts: ivdou,), in the middle of a speech (Matt 23:34; Acts 2:7 ; 13:11; 20:22, 25), to emphasize the importance of a subject (Matt 19:27; Mark 10:28; Luke 13:16; 15:29; 19:8, etc.), or as a summons to more careful consideration and observation (Matt 10:16; 11:8; 22:4; Mark 14:41; Luke 2:48; 7:25). In connection with a noun or finite vb. the meaning is here/there is, here/there was, here/there comes/came ( Matt 3:17; 12:10; Luke 7:34; Acts 8:27, 36; John 19:5, in Revelation frequently ei=don kai. ivdou, [4:1; 6:2, 5, 8; 7:9; 14:1, 14]). BAGD s.v.; P. Fiedler, Die Formel "und siehe" im NT (1969); R. Van Otterloo, OPTAT 2 (1988) 34-64. [2:173]


I guess I had assumed it was primarily a semiticism based on hinneh. The entry in Moulton/Milligan's VGNT (found in BW) appears to support that conclusion:
Moulton (Proleg. p. 11) has shown that the frequency with which ivdou, (originally the imper. of eivdo,mhn and accented ivdou/) is used by certain NT writers is due to the fact that they were accustomed to the constant use of an equivalent interjection in their own tongue: cf. Wellhausen Einl. (2 )p. 22.


I just did a quick check, and interestingly, Josephus does not use it at all. Philo only seems to use it in quotations of the LXX. OTOH, it does show up in some classical authors, but the NT is near the top: Perseus Frequency Results for ιδου (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/wordfreq?lookup=i%29dou/&lang=greek&sort=max10k)

Lee
04-06-2012, 11:45 PM
Would you guys think that ἰδοὺ could be thought of in similar terms (i.e., as a deictic particle)?

I absolutely would. It seems to me somewhere in the deep recesses of my shallow mind that I've heard ἰδοὺ called a deictic particle.

ISalzman
04-07-2012, 08:37 AM
According to BDAG, ιδου is a "demonstrative or presentative particle that draws attention to what follows"

And here's the entry from the EDNT (you should be able to figure out the Greek parts):
[EDNT] ivdou, idou see, behold
VIdou, is literally the aor. mid. imv. sg. (ivdou/, from o`ra,w), which is written as a demonstrative particle with the acute accent. The number of occurrences in the NT writings are (in order of frequency): Matthew 62, Luke 57, Revelation 26, Acts 23, Mark 7, James 6, John 4, Hebrews 4, Paul (only in 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, Romans) 9, Jude, and 1 Pet 1 each.


VIdou, serves, like Heb. hinn¢h, to enliven the narrative, either to awaken attention (e.g., Luke 22:10; John 4:35; 1 Cor 15:51; 2 Cor 5:17; Jas 5:9; Jude 14; Rev 1:7; 9:12; 11:14), to introduce something new (e.g., after a gen. absolute in Matt 1:20; 2:1, 13, etc.: kai. ivdou,; Matt 2:9; 3:16, etc., also Luke-Acts: ivdou,), in the middle of a speech (Matt 23:34; Acts 2:7 ; 13:11; 20:22, 25), to emphasize the importance of a subject (Matt 19:27; Mark 10:28; Luke 13:16; 15:29; 19:8, etc.), or as a summons to more careful consideration and observation (Matt 10:16; 11:8; 22:4; Mark 14:41; Luke 2:48; 7:25). In connection with a noun or finite vb. the meaning is here/there is, here/there was, here/there comes/came ( Matt 3:17; 12:10; Luke 7:34; Acts 8:27, 36; John 19:5, in Revelation frequently ei=don kai. ivdou, [4:1; 6:2, 5, 8; 7:9; 14:1, 14]). BAGD s.v.; P. Fiedler, Die Formel "und siehe" im NT (1969); R. Van Otterloo, OPTAT 2 (1988) 34-64. [2:173]


I guess I had assumed it was primarily a semiticism based on hinneh. The entry in Moulton/Milligan's VGNT (found in BW) appears to support that conclusion:
Moulton (Proleg. p. 11) has shown that the frequency with which ivdou, (originally the imper. of eivdo,mhn and accented ivdou/) is used by certain NT writers is due to the fact that they were accustomed to the constant use of an equivalent interjection in their own tongue: cf. Wellhausen Einl. (2 )p. 22.


I just did a quick check, and interestingly, Josephus does not use it at all. Philo only seems to use it in quotations of the LXX. OTOH, it does show up in some classical authors, but the NT is near the top: Perseus Frequency Results for ιδου (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/wordfreq?lookup=i)dou/&lang=greek&sort=max10k)

Great and thorough response, Mark. Thanks! It would appear to me also, and rather clearly, that "it (idou) was primarily a semiticism based on hinneh." The two have an almost identical function. "Demonstrative," "presentative," and "deictic" are synonyms, no matter how you slice it.

By the way, I really love the treatment in EDNT. I've never used that resource before. I will now!

ISalzman
04-07-2012, 08:42 AM
I absolutely would. It seems to me somewhere in the deep recesses of my shallow mind that I've heard ἰδοὺ called a deictic particle.

Thanks, Lee, I agree.

Irving

DavidR
04-07-2012, 01:55 PM
Great and thorough response, Mark. Thanks! It would appear to me also, and rather clearly, that "it (idou) was primarily a semiticism based on hinneh." The two have an almost identical function. "Demonstrative," "presentative," and "deictic" are synonyms, no matter how you slice it.

Well, but the function can be found in many languages (such as the French voilą and voici) without any connection to Hebrew or other Semitic languages. Clearly ἰδού was used in nonbiblical Greek. The Moulton/Milligan VGNT that Mark cites goes on to say, "As showing, however, that the interjection was used in the Koine where no Hebraistic influence is predicable, we may cite...," followed by a series of quotations from the Oxyrhyncus Papyri and other texts. LSJM unabridged (an expensive unlock, but so worth it) cites a variety of nonbiblical sources for ἰδού. The Perseus link that Mark gave seemed to me to have some false hits, but I may have been using it wrong. I tried a simple Perseus search on i)dou/ myself, and did find a number of nonbiblical texts that use it (although the ones from plays may just be introducing new speakers).

What does seem to be based on Hebrew (and this seems to be Moulton/Milligan's point) is the frequency with which ἰδού occurs in biblical Greek. I.e., it was available in ordinary Greek speech when the Hebrew texts were rendered into Greek, but wasn't used as often there as הִנֵּה is used in biblical Hebrew. Thus ἰδού appears more often in LXX than it would in ordinary Greek, and (differing hesitantly with the learned M/M!) I suspect it is that frequency rather than hearing deictic interjections in their daily use of Hebrew or Aramaic that influenced some NT writers. This would be particularly true of
Luke-Acts, whose writer is hardly likely to be a native speaker of a Semitic language but is well known to be highly imitative of LXX style (and in Acts is unlikely to be constrained by the use of written sources); and Paul, who may or may not have spoken Aramaic in daily life, but was writing to people who certainly did not, and uses ἰδού 8 times not in LXX quotations (6 in 2 Corinthians for some reason).
The authors of Matthew and Revelation, who use ἰδού a lot, would be more likely, perhaps, to use Semitic languages in daily life. It is interesting that the author of Hebrews, who writes the most elegant Greek in the NT, uses ἰδού only in scripture quotes; and that 2 Peter, which is likely to be under the influence of second-century atticizing (if one accepts the opinion of some scholars, such as J. M. Rife here (http://books.google.com/books?id=yklDk6Vv0l4C&pg=PA571&lpg=PA571&dq=2+peter+atticizing&source=bl&ots=2a9APpA7xR&sig=xvDGb4cejz7LIKSzqJXPWJub66A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RmyAT9PbK8aEtgeil_SnBg&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=2%20peter%20atticizing&f=false)), does not use it at all.

Well, that went on longer than I intended! It's an interesting subject. My main point is that the mere presence of ἰδού in LXX and NT is not necessarily a semiticism (since it was used as a deictic interjection in the ordinary Greek of the time), but that its surprising frequency there is likely due to the greater frequency of הִנֵּה in biblical Hebrew than ἰδού in everyday Greek.

ISalzman
04-07-2012, 03:33 PM
Points very well made, David.

I suspect - though I haven't looked at the hits by biblical book - that idou probably occurs more in narrative literature than it does elsewhere. So I'm not thoroughly surprised that it doesn't occur more in Hebrews, for example. Hinneh certainly seems to occur more within the narrative literature of the Hebrew Bible. This, of course, makes good sense. A narrator would want his audience to visualize what he is telling them. Isaiah 7:14 uses Hinneh to introduce the prophecy of the virgin who conceives. But this should not be surprising either, since the virgin who conceives - and, especially the child she conceives - demand our attention. Indeed, salvation demands it.

What I find interesting is that when John the Baptizer introduces (and identifies to the Jewish nation) Jesus as the Lamb of God, he uses Ide (translated "Behold"). In Genesis 22, Isaac en-route to becoming a sacrifice says to his father "Hinneh ha-aish ve-ha-eytzim, ve-ayeh ha-seh?" "Behold the fire and the wood, but where is the Lamb?" All Abraham can answer is "The Lord Himself will provide the Lamb." 1800 or so years later, John the Baptizer identifies that Lamb as Jesus (John 1:29): ἴδε ὁ ἀμνὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ὁ αἴρων τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου. Interesting to note the Delitzsch Hebrew NT rendition of this verse:


וַיְהִי מִמָּחֲרָת וַיַּרְא יוֹחָנָן אֶת־יֵשׁוּעַ בָּא אֵלָיו וַיֹּאמַר הִנֵּה שֵׂה הָאֱלֹהִים הַנֹּשֵׂא חַטַּאת הָעוֹלָם׃


Isaac's question finally got its answer almost 2000 years later.

At any rate, thanks for the good discussion.

Irving

Lee
04-07-2012, 05:33 PM
Great thoughts, Irving. I do believe that will preach.

ISalzman
04-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Thank you, Lee! A joyous resurrection day to you.

Irving

MGVH
04-09-2012, 10:09 AM
My main point is that the mere presence of ἰδού in LXX and NT is not necessarily a semiticism (since it was used as a deictic interjection in the ordinary Greek of the time), but that its surprising frequency there is likely due to the greater frequency of הִנֵּה in biblical Hebrew than ἰδού in everyday Greek.

Thanks, David. You have stated more accurately what I was at least thinking in my head.

A related matter here is how we deal with it in English. A lot of versions simply omit it or treat it inconsistently. (E.g., the NET Bible sometimes omits it, sometimes translates with "Look," and sometimes adds this note: "The Greek word ivdou, (idou) has not been translated because it has no exact English equivalent here, but adds interest and emphasis (BDAG 468 s.v. 1).")
I still have the KJV's "behold" ringing in my ears from childhood, but I know it sounds odd and quaint today. In my Greek classes, idou, we've gotten to the point where we don't translate it, but just say it!

One other minor thing: You mentioned the value of LSJM. It's great as an addon, but others should remember that it is available online via a right click in BW.

ISalzman
04-09-2012, 11:03 AM
One other minor thing: You mentioned the value of LSJM. It's great as an addon, but others should remember that it is available online via a right click in BW.

Hey Mark, could you please give details about how one might access LSJM online via a right click in BW? Grateful for that info and procedure. Thanks.

Irving

DavidR
04-09-2012, 12:16 PM
A related matter here is how we deal with it in English. A lot of versions simply omit it or treat it inconsistently. (E.g., the NET Bible sometimes omits it, sometimes translates with "Look," and sometimes adds this note: "The Greek word ivdou, (idou) has not been translated because it has no exact English equivalent here, but adds interest and emphasis (BDAG 468 s.v. 1).")
I still have the KJV's "behold" ringing in my ears from childhood, but I know it sounds odd and quaint today. In my Greek classes, idou, we've gotten to the point where we don't translate it, but just say it!
Yes, quite a problem. A short bit of research suggests that the real English native equivalent is "lo," which even by the KJV's time must have been well on its way to disappearing in ordinary use: in the NT, KJV uses "behold" (a more literal rendering of ἰδού) about 7.4 times as often as "lo," and in the OT about 8.7 times as often. "Lo" and "behold" occur in the same verse where there are multiple occurrences of הִנֵּה or ἰδού in the verse ("lo and behold" does not actually occur at all; how could it?). For Tyndale (NT only), the proportions are comparable, "behold(e)" occurring about 6.8 times as often as "lo(o)," the difference suggesting that "lo" had indeed come to seem even less usable by the time the KJV was made.

It does seem that the Tyndale/KJV tradition felt called upon to use "lo" or "behold" every time הִנֵּה or ἰδού occurred in the biblical text. As Irving is finding out, I suspect, the LXX did not feel quite that same compulsion. ἰδού vastly predominates, but there are quite a few other options used. For instance, in Gen. 37:7, where הִנֵּה occurs 3 times in Joseph's report of his dream, KJV uses "behold," "lo," and "behold" respectively, while LXX does not use ἰδού at all, representing the first הִנֵּה with ᾤμην ("I thought") and ignoring the other two altogether, creating a much more fluent Greek narrative. (I suspect that a lot of the places where Tov reports הִנֵּה as being represented by και or δε will turn out to be like this, where the LXX translators simply omit it.)

So modern English translators are in good company when they treat הִנֵּה and ἰδού "inconsistently." We really don't use deictics like this much in standard English anymore. However ... any chance that some of your younger students might find it meaningful to use "yo" instead of "lo"? :) Or maybe "whoa"? Or maybe other equivalents: "Someone told him, 'Dude, your mom and your brothers are standing outside, trying to talk to you'"(Matt. 12:47); "And check this, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, rapping with him" (Matt. 17:3).

OK, time for me to stop now.

bobvenem
04-10-2012, 07:59 AM
So modern English translators are in good company when they treat הִנֵּה and ἰδού "inconsistently." We really don't use deictics like this much in standard English anymore. However ... any chance that some of your younger students might find it meaningful to use "yo" instead of "lo"? :) Or maybe "whoa"? Or maybe other equivalents: "Someone told him, 'Dude, your mom and your brothers are standing outside, trying to talk to you'"(Matt. 12:47); "And check this, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, rapping with him" (Matt. 17:3).

OK, time for me to stop now.

"And Jesus was, like, 'Word up, yo....'" (Mark 14:30).

Uh...I don't think so, aight?:cool:

DavidR
04-10-2012, 09:54 AM
:D ROFL! (Or whatever the Greek for that might be!)

MGVH
04-10-2012, 10:16 AM
So modern English translators are in good company when they treat הִנֵּה and ἰδού "inconsistently."
A similar sort of word is ευθυς in Mark. English versions get tired of always rendering with "immediately" or the KJV's "straightway."
Instead, I've seen the gospel performed where every ευθυς is rendered w/ a finger snap. It works quite well.

Similarly for הִנֵּה and ἰδού, I would use a gesture w/ both hands sort of like a conductor when starting a musical piece. Hard to put that on paper, but it would work in performance.

MGVH
04-10-2012, 10:33 AM
Hey Mark, could you please give details about how one might access LSJM online via a right click in BW?
I've customized my BW so much, I never can remember what's original and what's a modification...

Below is the graphic showing what you want as the parameters. Be sure to "Enable this link."
The Web Page, File to open line should read:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?entry=<dummy>&display=Beta

(For some reason that line sometimes gets broken in the display here on the forum. Make sure there are no spaces in the line.)

972

ISalzman
04-10-2012, 11:07 AM
Thanks much, Mark!

Irving