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Ben Spackman
07-29-2011, 10:12 AM
I've been out of the country for a while, coming back late August. I plan on upgrading to BW 9 at that point, but I must admit I'm doing it out of loyalty and because I love BW.

There's lots of excitement about all the new text-critical and manuscript additions, but as I work mostly with the Old Testament, there's not much for me to get excited about; the feature I'm mostly looking forward to is the 4th info panel. Am I wrong? Is there more relevant OT material that I'm overlooking, or features particularly suited to OT research?

I'd like to see more OT/HB materials brought to bear.

That said, I'm a long-time user, want to be supportive, I'm upgrading, and happy to do so.

Michael Hanel
07-29-2011, 10:58 AM
Don't feel completely left out. There are still Greek resources I could list that haven't been included yet in BW9, so Greek people didn't get everything they wanted :p

I would say there obviously are more Greek things than Hebrew in BW9, but I wonder how much that is dictated by who and what's out there. For instance there are countless different editions of the GNT, but how many real versions are there of the Hebrew bible? I know of the Kittel version, the current version and the Quinta version, but I'm not savvy enough to even know the differences between them. It seems like a lot of the big name Hebrew guys work (exclusively?) with the Mac program, so I don't know how licensing their work for BibleWorks would work. Otherwise BW would have to find other people do the work for them.

I know you've listed a few of your wish list items in different places over the years, but it'd be nice to be refreshed with some of the things in particular you'd like to see added.

Sansom48
07-29-2011, 12:48 PM
although I hate to admit it, my Hebrew is not as good as I would prefer. That being said, I would love to see more Hebrew sources within BibleWorks. I would love to see the DSS and/or the Leningradensis text added to the Manuscript project or something of the like.

bkMitchell
07-29-2011, 10:52 PM
... I wonder how much that is dictated by who and what's out there. For instance there are countless different editions of the GNT, but how many real versions are there of the Hebrew bible?..

In terms of Text Critical Hebrew Bibles there are three main projects

The Biblia Hebraica Quinta

http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/papers/13.review-bhs.2008.pdf
http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol07/Weis2002.html
http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/4725_4867.pdf
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hebrew-Bible/112545802093694


Hebrew University Bible

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Hebrew-University-Bible-Project/143776295634624
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_University_Bible_Project


The Oxford Hebrew Bible Project

http://ohb.berkeley.edu/


(http://ohb.berkeley.edu/)Wikipedia's listing of Tanakhs follows below:




The first ever printed Hebrew Chumash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash_%28Judaism%29) simply had Biblical text with Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) on the page, and since then many editions have appeared.
The first Masoretic Mikraot Gedolot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikraot_Gedolot) was printed in 1524-1525 in Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice), edited by Daniel Bomberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Bomberg).
The Soncino edition was printed in 1527 in Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice).
Many editions of Mikraot Gedolot have been made since then.
Rudolf Kittel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Kittel)'s Biblia Hebraica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica) appeared in 1906 and was reprinted in 1913.
The Leningrad Codex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Codex) was edited under Paul E. Kahle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_E._Kahle) as the Biblia Hebraica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica) (BHK), published in Stuttgart, in 1937. The codex was also used for Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia) (BHS) in 1977, and will be used for Biblia Hebraica Quinta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Quinta) (BHQ).
The Leningrad Codex lists a different order for the books of the Ketuvim

The Leningrad Codex also served as the basis for two important Jewish editions of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh):



Aharon Dotan's edition, which was reprinted with a concise commentary and distributed to soldiers in mass quantities as the official Tanakh of the Israel Defense Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces) throughout the 1990s. This has recently been updated as the Codex Leningradensis.
The Koren Tanakh (Bible) was the first edition in nearly 500 years to be designed, edited, printed, and bound by Jews. It was published by Koren Publishers Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koren_Publishers_Jerusalem), under the direction of renowned typographer Eliyahu Koren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliyahu_Koren), using his specially designed Koren Bible Type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koren_Type), (Jerusalem, 1962).
Mesorah Publications מקראות גדלות, (Jerusalem, 1996)
The JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jewish_Publication_Society_of_America_Version) (Philadelphia, 1999)
The Aleppo Codex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Codex) was edited by Mordechai Breuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Breuer) in 1977-1982, the first edition to include a reconstruction of the letters, vowels, and cantillation marks in the missing parts of the Aleppo Codex, in 1996-8 re-edited with inclusion of new information on the parashah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashah) divisions.
Jerusalem Crown: The Bible of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, 2000. Edited according to the method of Mordechai Breuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Breuer) under the supervision of Yosef Ofer, with additional proofreading and refinements since the Horev edition.
Jerusalem Simanim Institute, Feldheim Publishers, 2004 (published in one-volume and three-volume editions).
Hebrew University Bible Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_University_Bible_Project) (so far on Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel) includes four apparatuses, as well as the masoretic notes of the Aleppo Codex.
Mikraot Gedolot Haketer (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mikraot_Gedolot_Haketer&action=edit&redlink=1), Bar-Ilan University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-Ilan_University) (1992–present). A multi-volume critical edition of the Mikraot Gedolot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikraot_Gedolot), ten volumes published to date including Genesis (2 vols.), Exodus (one of a two vols so far), Joshua & Judges (1 vol.), Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Psalms (2 vols.). Includes the masoretic notes of the Aleppo Codex and a new commentary on them. Differs from the Breuer reconstruction and presentation for some masoretic details.

Michael Hanel
07-30-2011, 10:00 AM
Some comments so far:

1. How active are some of these projects? Like the Hebrew University Bible Project: begun in 1956 but there are only 3 books done? (granted they aren't small books, but still...).

2. I think it's safe to say that the BHQ is either off the table or going to be very difficult (expensive) to get since it's done by the German Bible Society. The German Bible Society although to be commended for taking on such projects like this, apparently also makes it hard for others to use their materials. It was partially because they never let BW use the NA27 critical apparatus under favorable terms that BW began its manuscripts project. GBS even markets their own product (SESB) in comparison with BW (http://www.sesb-online.de/en/sesb-or-bibleworks/) which sort of implies that BW is not a distribution option, but a competitor. So even if BW tried to get BHQ, I don't know whether they would have any hope of success unfortunately.

3. The Oxford Hebrew Bible looks potentially interesting, but based on things I've seen on other Bible software forums, they are also not an easy company to work with when it comes to obtaining their products.

4. I've looked into things like the Samaritan Pentateuch, but to my knowledge there isn't even a standard critical version of that (am I wrong?). I've read criticisms against von Gall's edition that the text as printed is nearly worthless, it's only the apparatus that is worthwhile, but not being huge into this field I don't know how valid those criticisms are.

5. In the Hebrew field there are no major figures comparable to Maurice Robinson (am I wrong?). He's a guy who's been working to get the text (Byzantine tradition of GNT) out there so that it's available. He's also done morphological versions of his work. In terms of the New Testament, there are Gramcord, BibleWorks, Friberg, Mounce-Koivisto, and Logos morphological versions (these at least are the ones I can recall off the top of my head), but to my knowledge, the only Hebrew morphological version that exists is the Groves-Wheeler Westminster morphology. Not that I have any problem with their work, but it shows that there isn't as much to pull from as there is on the Greek side of things.

bkMitchell
07-30-2011, 10:55 AM
Some comments so far:
1. How active are some of these projects? Like the Hebrew University Bible Project: begun in 1956 but there are only 3 books done? (granted they aren't small books, but still...).
They are still working on it...



2. I think it's safe to say that the BHQ is either off the table...
I agree with you


4. I've looked into things like the Samaritan Pentateuch, but to my knowledge there isn't even a standard critical version of that (am I wrong?). I've read criticisms against von Gall's edition that the text as printed is nearly worthless, it's only the apparatus that is worthwhile, but not being huge into this field I don't know how valid those criticisms are. Because, von Gall's edition is cited in the BHS it does hold value for those wishing to check up on the citations.


5. In the Hebrew field there are no major figures comparable to Maurice Robinson (am I wrong?). He's a guy who's been working to get the text (Byzantine tradition of GNT) out there so that it's available. He's also done morphological versions of his work. Yes, in terms of making quality electronic texts of Hebrew Bible available freely (or without restrictions) there is no one like Maurice Robinson unless one counts the wikii media projects.


In terms of the New Testament, there are Gramcord, BibleWorks, Friberg, Mounce-Koivisto, and Logos morphological versions (these at least are the ones I can recall off the top of my head), but to my knowledge, the only Hebrew morphological version that exists is the Groves-Wheeler Westminster morphology. Not that I have any problem with their work, but it shows that there isn't as much to pull from as there is on the Greek side of things.

Actually, there are other electronic morphologies of the Hebrew Bible, owned or sponsored by Logos(The Werkgroep Informatica, The Richter Morphology, and the F. Andersen and D. Forbes databases).

But, most morphological database of the Hebrew Bible on the market or either the Michigan-Claremon or it's derivative the Westminster morphological database.

There are few other morphological products out there:

Bar-Ilan's Tokhnit "HaKeter"--Ma'agar HaTanakh (available)
Judaic Bookshelf Master Library by TES (widely available)
The Ma'agarim software package (I am not sure if they still sell this)
The Mikrah Database of CIB/Maredsous (I am not sure if they still sell this)

Ben Spackman
08-01-2011, 05:15 AM
Edit- see below. All the html was visible in the post.

Ben Spackman
08-01-2011, 05:16 AM
I took some time to think about this, and here's what I came up with. I'm sure some of this has been suggested before, probably by me :) Some of them just involve some reformatting or minor programming tweaks, I think.



In the resource window, Hebrew resources should be above Greek, and grammars above lexicons. Why? Because if you have any Greek selected (mostly lexicons) none of your Hebrew references are visible without some (sometimes major) scrolling. You can't even tell they're there without scrolling because they're crowded out. So I deactivate all the Greek, but then when I'm looking at the NT... Same reasoning for putting grammars above lexicons. Lexicons tend to have a lot more entries than grammars, so you can't tell if there are grammatical entries without scrolling. Put the least-referenced things at the top so you can tell in an instant if they're there. The current arrangement is really less effective if you're dealing with Hebrew, and changing it wouldn't affect the Greek at all, since lots of the Greek resources mention Hebrew references, but not vice-versa.
DSS Biblical texts with translation and text-critical notes. We have the latter now in a module, but not the DSS Biblical texts. Pictures (or links to pictures) would be nice, even untagged pics.
Improvement of QSM/QST module- often slow, blinky, funny behaviors. And again, translations would be nice, not as a separate html part but integrated as a searchable translation next to the HEbrew in teh browse window.
Clearer formatting/arrangement in lexicons and grammars. (Look in BDB in the lexicon browser at sh-k-b, for example, where there are distinct sub-areas that are numbered, but there's no spacing or formatting to help locate yourself within the entry. This seems to be the problem mostly with BDB). Along these lines, if we could change the font size or even the font in those html files to better match monitor sizes/resolutions.
Additional lexicons, though I have low expectations there (Jastrow, DCH, Tawil's Akkadian-Hebrew)
Additional grammars (Blau, Van der Merwe, etc.) Ditto on low expectations, as we have the main and most important ones.
User-compiled dictionary- It would be nice if we could essentially create our own note file on a word, which could be selected as a lexicon to display every time we mouse over that word, i.e. notes tied to roots instead of chapters/verses. That would largely eliminate #5.
Targum translations
Root-based search. This involves some judgments that can be wrong, but it would be nice to search on mlk and find all the verbal forms and noun forms, including those with suffixes and prefixes, e.g. mmlk, mlkh, mlkut etc.
Better integration with materials that fall outside BWs purview (ie. Logos 4, etc.)
UBS Handbooks, particularly for the OT. These seem quite expensive in some places, bizarrely cheap elsewhere, but it's the kind of text-based verse-by-verse thing that falls easily within BW's domain.

Those are the most reasonable things I can come up with. I would love to see BHQ with its apparatus, but I don't think it will happen. And of course, there's very little of it available.

Joan Korte
08-01-2011, 09:35 AM
[QUOTE=Ben Spackman;25985]I took some time to think about this, and here's what I came up with. I'm sure some of this has been suggested before, probably by me :) Some of them just involve some reformatting or minor programming tweaks, I think.
UBS Handbooks, particularly for the OT. These seem quite expensive in some places, bizarrely cheap elsewhere, but it's the kind of text-based verse-by-verse thing that falls easily within BW's domain.
QUOTE]

Hi Ben,
The UBS handbooks have been requested through WORDsearch by several BW9 users. There is another thread on that and I haven't located it yet. I have the UBS handbooks in Logos 4 and I have found a simple way to link to all of them through the BWorks external links manager given a particular Scripture verse. Actually, I can link to all my commentaries in L4 from BWorks. I never pursued links through BW8 but with BW9, it is easy. I don't know what changed; maybe I just worked a little harder to do it.

SCSaunders
08-01-2011, 11:18 AM
UBS Handbooks, particularly for the OT. These seem quite expensive in some places, bizarrely cheap elsewhere, but it's the kind of text-based verse-by-verse thing that falls easily within BW's domain.A quick search backs this up. Compare Logos & Biblesoft alone.

Logos
http://i56.tinypic.com/j7zwwj.png (ttp://www.logos.com/product/7842/the-united-bible-societies-old-testament-handbook-series)

BibleSoft
http://i55.tinypic.com/qxni82.png (ttp://store.biblesoft.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=UBSOTHANB00347)


The UBS handbooks have been requested through WORDsearch by several BW9 users. There is another thread on that and I haven't located it yet. So far, I've purchased one dictionary through WORDsearch. It has worked fantastic with BW8. Can't really beat the price IMO. Here's hoping they can add these to their offerings.

Joan Korte
08-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Most series of commentaries, if not purchased as part of a package or library, in Logos are expensive. But, when purchased as part of a package, they are great deals because you not only get UBS Handbooks, OT & NT, but also commentaries such as the NAC and NIGTC (not to mention loads of original language resources and reference books). It is not my intent to advertise here, just make a clarification that has been my personal experience. For me, they are all the more valuable since links are working from BW9.

Ben Spackman
08-23-2011, 06:52 AM
If it came in, I'd prefer to see the UBS materials in the Verse Tab, not in external HTML, which (while I'm glad to have it) I find somewhat unwieldy and ugly.