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HisExcellentWord
07-18-2011, 11:25 PM
First, let me say, I am a fan of BibleWorks. I purchased version 8 and just received version 9. While the icons in version 8 were simplistic maybe, they were not looking ugly, as in version 9. Version 9's icons are extremely poor quality and UGLY. I can only hope that in an update - shortly to follow - that the icons will be replaced! Common guys, can't you pay a professional to make you high quality icons?! Afterall, you are selling software! I am sure a few hundred dollars would be enough to get a good set of icons! Why do you want to turn people off from using the program? I can barely look at it, because of these ugly buttons to click!

Michael Hanel
07-18-2011, 11:35 PM
Clearly we're not going to agree since I don't think the buttons are horrendous. Maybe I'll be in the minority, who knows.

Aside from your campaign to get BibleWorks to change the buttons you have a couple of other options. In the View menu, you can uncheck the Show Main Toolbar under the Toolbar item, or you can revert to the classic toolbar if the new ones prove too much for you to handle.

jimofbentley
07-18-2011, 11:39 PM
I'm sorry, but your "poll" is biased to only one conclusion - that the icons are bad.

The poll does allow for mockery, rejection, and a lack of opinion, but not for anything positive.

Personally, I have not ordered BW9 (well, not yet anyway!) but from looking at the setup onthe website I feel that the icons are a definite improvement over BW8.Unfortunately, your "poll" does not allow this response option.

Ron Adair
07-19-2011, 12:17 AM
I think the icons for BW9 are an improvement over the icons of BW8. Some will take a little getting used to what they do, but that is true for anything new. I am really enjoying this new version, especially the fourth column. Great work BW staff.

HisExcellentWord
07-19-2011, 12:23 AM
@jimofbentley - The positive response, while admittedly sarcastic :p is, "They don't matter to me. I just focus on the text, ha ha ha."

@Michael Hanel - The point is, these are the default icons that display when you start the program and they are absolutely ugly. They are worse than version 8. And I would have thought, after almost three years of waiting on the new version to come out, they would have at least worked on the interface more and used professional icons.

Furthermore, there are lots of sites out there that offer free or open source icons that would cost very little, as far as license to use in the program. But, I am confident - since I know designers - that these icons could have been made for very little money.

880

Make sure to view the attached print screen fully, not just as it appears in the post here. Right click and chose to view the image or download it. Make sure to use your options to zoom in to 100%.

calvary
07-19-2011, 03:20 AM
I really like the new icons. For me they're easier on the eyes than the V8 one's. They're bigger and more detailed. I guess this is just an opinion thing.

I vote to leave em they way they are. They're perfect!

Dave

ISalzman
07-19-2011, 09:29 AM
I really like the new icons. For me they're easier on the eyes than the V8 one's. They're bigger and more detailed. I guess this is just an opinion thing.

I vote to leave em they way they are. They're perfect!

Dave

I have to fully agree with Dave. I think the new icons are great!

Irving

Greg Ward
07-19-2011, 09:40 AM
I think the icons are improved over BW8. They are more intuitive, IMHO. The color scheme does change the screen.

No poll category seems appropriate. I will refrain from the poll.

(I won't go into my opinion about icon "improvements" from software giants.

Dale A. Brueggemann
07-19-2011, 10:54 AM
The poll stinks, because it only invites useless mockery; the icons are good. I especially like that BW has made the function of each icon more graphically apparent than they were in earlier versions (e.g., a key for keywords in context, scales for comparing texts, etc.).

MBushell
07-19-2011, 12:02 PM
First, let me say, I am a fan of BibleWorks. I purchased version 8 and just received version 9. While the icons in version 8 were simplistic maybe, they were not looking ugly, as in version 9. Version 9's icons are extremely poor quality and UGLY. I can only hope that in an update - shortly to follow - that the icons will be replaced! Common guys, can't you pay a professional to make you high quality icons?! Afterall, you are selling software! I am sure a few hundred dollars would be enough to get a good set of icons! Why do you want to turn people off from using the program? I can barely look at it, because of these ugly buttons to click!

For what it is worth, the icons were passed by a lot of people before release and they were universally liked. Also for what it is worth the buttons are commercially developed designs which we modified slightly in a few cases. I personally think they are a big improvement. You certainly have a right to dislike them. But I think the majority of our users will disagree and a few (like me) will find your sarcasm more than a little off-putting. We welcome suggestions and criticism when it is offered with a little Christ-like humility and an obvious desire to be helpful. Input that is lacking those qualities is still processed, but not taken very seriously.

Mike

calvary
07-19-2011, 02:37 PM
For what it is worth, the icons were passed by a lot of people before release and they were universally liked. Also for what it is worth the buttons are commercially developed designs which we modified slightly in a few cases. I personally think they are a big improvement. You certainly have a right to dislike them. But I think the majority of our users will disagree and a few (like me) will find your sarcasm more than a little off-putting. We welcome suggestions and criticism when it is offered with a little Christ-like humility and an obvious desire to be helpful. Input that is lacking those qualities is still processed, but not taken very seriously.

Mike

Mike,

I certainly didn't take the poll seriously, as the tone was clearly mockery. I don't want to get into a flame war, but this poll was out of line and in no way contributes to a healthy discussion about things that people may find problematic with the product.

Hopefully it was meant to be a joke. If not, I say delete the thread.

Dave

MBushell
07-19-2011, 04:17 PM
Mike,
Hopefully it was meant to be a joke. If not, I say delete the thread.

My first inclination was to delete it. I talked to Michael Tan and he said it would be better to just let it die so that is what we will do. We don't want to censor people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Thanks!
Mike

calvary
07-19-2011, 04:19 PM
My first inclination was to delete it. I talked to Michael Tan and he said it would be better to just let it die so that is what we will do. We don't want to censor people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Thanks!
Mike

That's cool. :)

johns
07-20-2011, 04:28 AM
We welcome suggestions and criticism when it is offered with a little Christ-like humility and an obvious desire to be helpful. Input that is lacking those qualities is still processed, but not taken very seriously.


This picture may help to visualize the process:

884

The new icons are an improvement. The old ones were too small and there were too many of them. I could never remember what any of them did so I simply did not use any of them.

John

Adelphos
07-20-2011, 02:21 PM
I am pretty much a bells and whistles kind of guy and I have never been too impressed with the icons in BibleWorks. I never thought that they were ugly or anything like that, but just not up to par with the actual quality of the rest of the program.

While I don't have BW 9, I have view carefully the icons on the screen shots that come with version 9 and I think they are at the LEAST appropos for the quality of the program on this one, at LEAST as good as other commercially quality programs.

But I do think this entire thread should be deleted. It's not a matter of principle of censorship; it's a matter of good tastes. This poll has not a thread of good tastes whatsoever; it distracts from the overall board, and it only encourages other such adventures in the future.

Eric
07-20-2011, 02:45 PM
I have always thought that the icons in Bibleworks previous to version 9 did not progress with the actual program itself. They were state of the art back in the day, but were not updated. This never concerned me because I would rather have the Company use their resources to focus on the program features than take resources to update icons. It appears to me that is exactly what they did. They focused on what really matters and they have succeeded in creating one of the best programs available.

Now that they have updated the icons with 9, I think they are substantially improved. Nevertheless, it seems very silly to me to focus attention on the icons as if they really mattered. It is such an insignificant part of what the program does.

The only reason I'm commenting is because I am very appreciative of the Bibleworks team, the product they produce, and the policies they stand by that make this product affordable to me. It saddens me to see this thread because, as silly as the the topic seems to me, it still must have an effect on the team.

For what it's worth, Bibleworks, I'm thrilled with the product and version 9, and I know that without your efforts and policies, I would not be able to have access to what you have made possible. THANK YOU!

roshka
07-25-2011, 08:56 PM
Haha! The 1 vote "Christian software doesn't have to be as good of quality as what the world puts out." is actually mine and I am being a bit sarcastic.

I too was surprised by the quality of icons, considering that price of the software.

For many years I've been enjoying FREE e-Sword, and I'd say, that I wouldn't criticize ANYTHING in their program, since it is FREE. I respect the effort and I thank God that there are still people, willing to do non-profit things.

This software is NOT non-profit. And, in fact, there are plenty other things in the world, that are done by Christians or for Christians and yet at the same time are done for PROFIT.

One way to sell, is to make it look nice, decent, not cheapy-cheap, etc.

The worst way to sell is to charge a lot, then say: "Oh, but it is Christian!" and give you cheap-looking stuff. I don't but it. I'd say, if it is SOOOO Christian that you cannot handle constructive customer suggestions, then stop treating us as customers and give us software for free, as to brothers and sisters in Christ! Then we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, will gladly accept your charity and will stop criticizing anything you do for the Glory of the Lord.

Or is the text in the software is what we pay for it and your "quality" icons are a separate "charity" toward your customer? Is it how we to understand this?

If any of you do not see or understand that the icons are not good, I can explain why they are not good:

1) they are "pixelated"
2) the corners of the icons do not have a clean cut (white or other color background is showing)
3) some icons are truly much smaller then they appear in the program (hence the pixelation) - that shows that different icons were pulled into the program from different sources, e.g. someone just scrambles-rambles and "collected" this collection of icons
4) it is all especially pathetic, considering that there are MANY sites that provide absolutely FREE icons of amazing quality and not mismatched.

Someone, building this program, showed a real lack of care and a great deal of laziness and this is why some people who go to work EVERYDAY to earn this few hundreds of dollars find it especially offensive to pay such money to those who do not care to even come up with edible icons.

I happen to be in that category of offended by such lack of care, considering the price of software.

ISalzman
07-25-2011, 09:47 PM
Roshka, you certainly have a right to your opinion. If you are not entirely thrilled with the new icons, that is your prerogative. But I would just encourage you to be gracious and charitable with your criticisms. Most of us, myself included, like the new icons and are very happy with them. A software application is much more than its icons. I can assure you that the BibleWorks people and staffers do very much care for their customers and their product. Theirs is a real labor of love and a ministry. The person who created the poll and included the one multiple choice option "Christian software doesn't need to be as good as the software of the world" was only being smart-alecky in suggesting that. That is not the philosophy of the BibleWorks people, I can promise you. They have invested their very lives in this software so that people can focus on the text of God's word. There is no holier enterprise than that.

roshka
07-25-2011, 10:23 PM
Roshka, you certainly have a right to your opinion. If you are not entirely thrilled with the new icons, that is your prerogative. But I would just encourage you to be gracious and charitable with your criticisms. Most of us, myself included, like the new icons and are very happy with them. A software application is much more than its icons. I can assure you that the BibleWorks people and staffers do very much care for their customers and their product. Theirs is a real labor of love and a ministry. The person who created the poll and included the one multiple choice option "Christian software doesn't need to be as good as the software of the world" was only being smart-alecky in suggesting that. That is not the philosophy of the BibleWorks people, I can promise you. They have invested their very lives in this software so that people can focus on the text of God's word. There is no holier enterprise than that.

...The problem is that the philosophy here is: "You concentrate on the text and use this program in the dark of the night and all by yourself, so that no one else looks at your screen!" And I have a problem with it. Some people actually use "Christian" tools not just for their own self-bettering, at their own leisure and so no one sees the screen. If I had a friend at my home and I wanted to open up a program and show "from the Bible" the differences between their native translation (Russian) the Bible we all use (English translation) and what God actually said in the Original Texts, it would be pretty hard to do so and I would be pretty self-conscious.

Say no matter what, but even God Himself said that He looks in the heart but the man looks at the outwardly appearance, did He pay attention to this very difference so that we, who are supposed to be "fishers of men" just alltogether conveniently dismiss it?

Just like we do not go to church with a "beautiful" heart, but dresses like slobs, because it would be a "bad testimony" why would we advocate dressing a program beautiful "at core" with an ugly attire (its icons and interface)?

Well, admittedly, some Christians DO actually go to church, looking like slobs and SHAME on SUCH!!! You turn people away from Christ before they can recognize your inward beauty.

The ICONS are Christ's, and they are ugly! And as far as I am concerned it is a BAD testimony - why do you all "protect" and "shield" it???

I certainly PAY attention to the texts - the Bible says: Do everything as unto the Lord!

If it is a MINISTRY than the program should be FREE, since it is NOT FREE - it is for profit and a BUSINESS. BibleWorks is a business and not just a LABOR OF LOVE, do not try to portray things like what they are not.

It is NOT A BAD things to have a BUSINESS and to sell Christian stuff, but when you do - you need to respect customer wishes and not justify lame icons by saying "it is a labor of love" - ESPECIALLY if it IS, icons need to be better.

Yes, icons are not ALL of the program, there are many aspects to software development: content, programming, functionality, interface... This thread is discussion ONE of the aspects (interface) where the software is lacking and needs improvement. I can only agree to what's obvious and support the thread and hope to see improvement.

It is not the point at all that there's MORE to the program. The MORE to the program is being discussed in other threads.

In fact, I MYSELF found glitches in another aspect of software (functionality) and I had posted my comment on here: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?5008-Issues-while-copying-Russian-text-from-BibleWorks

That shows and proves that I see MORE in the programs than just icons. But I also see icons and I want to close my eyes. However, I can't use the program with my eyes closed....

ISalzman
07-25-2011, 10:50 PM
Roshka, for argument sake, I just did a count in this thread. Of the twelve different people who responded about the icons, only two out of twelve didn't like them (you are one of the two). Ten people were satisfied and happy with the new icons. I must say that you are in the extreme minority. I don't think the icons are an embarrassment at all. You do not need to be ashamed of showing the program with these icons to your non-Christian friends. The vast majority of people who have weighed in on these icons have found them to be beneficial and pleasing.

roshka
07-25-2011, 11:00 PM
Roshka, for argument sake, I just did a count in this thread. Of the twelve different people who responded about the icons, only two out of twelve didn't like them (you are one of the two). Ten people were satisfied and happy with the new icons. I must say that you are in the extreme minority. I don't think the icons are an embarrassment at all. You do not need to be ashamed of showing the program with these icons to your non-Christian friends. The vast majority of people who have weighed in on these icons have found them to be beneficial and pleasing.

Have you ever heard the expression, "the silent majority." Often, many people who disagree also do not express their view. Furthermore, BibleWorks hardly has 100% user participation - from those with licenses - on these forums. Furthermore, this thread has not existed very long, to have gathered more voices expressing dissatisfaction for the icons.

After-all, you wouldn't want me to say that there are only 9 people in the world, who appreciate BibleWorks based on the following thread, would you??: http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?4985-The-appreciation-thread . That would be rather foolish.

I would also say, since this is the internet, how do I know all of the icon supporters aren't just BibleWorks staff, posting fake posts that don't amount to anything? I don't. If BibleWorks wants to deceive themselves into believing that their interface is attractive and a good testimony, then we paying customers really don't matter and probably should spend our hard-earned money elsewhere. Maybe donate to a real non-profit ministry instead of pay for a "Christian" business' software?

Lee
07-25-2011, 11:20 PM
I would also say, since this is the internet, how do I know all of the icon supporters aren't just BibleWorks staff, posting fake posts that don't amount to anything? I don't. If BibleWorks wants to deceive themselves into believing that their interface is attractive and a good testimony, then we paying customers really don't matter and probably should spend our hard-earned money elsewhere. Maybe donate to a real non-profit ministry instead of pay for a "Christian" business' software?

Sounds like someone is definitely posting fake posts that don't amount to anything . . .

roshka
07-25-2011, 11:37 PM
Sounds like someone is definitely posting fake posts that don't amount to anything . . .

For one - what does this mean?

For two - I forgot to add, that there are more people in the world than just casual Americans, who go on the mission field and preach in shorts and flip-flops and are proud of that. They also do not mind junky "ministry" web-sites and junky software icons.

Because I myself come from a very formal church and grew up in a much more formal culture (in Eastern Europe) when I came to US I also found (admittedly to my sincere surprise) that in America there are plenty of American-born and immigrated Christians who are not like those missionaries who like to preach in shorts and use junky icons, and also I found plenty of non-Christians (my friends) who are very professional, methodical and classy.

I mean, look at the way God made us - He is classy. Why Christians who serve him are not upholding His principles.

He could have created Adam and said: okay, Adam, good enough, here you have jagged, pixelated ears - after all - ears do not matter much and it is not the main thing in your body! He didn't though!!

So, yeah, I would be and am ashamed to open the program in front of an unbeliever. (Since in my case I am actually trying to reach like-minded, classy and formal people in my surrounding. I have NO unbeliever that I know, who would not comment on those icons before I would read a verse from the program!)

BTW, IF only it was THAT hard to replace those icons, but it is not. Many of junky icons defenders spend more effort trying convince those are okay.

Odesk.com - post a job and get icons for 50 bucks - whole set of beautiful icons

Do a Google on "Vector Icon Set" - you can come up with sets of good quality you can buy!


_____


Also wanted to add: ...maybe the problem is that there are might be only TWO people in this thread (so far) who evaluate software from a customer perspective and also from the standpoint that they use/need it for the sake of reaching those who are lost???? Maybe for "home use" shorts, flip-flops and these icons are okay, but for outreach it needs to be much better than this. And I repeat, it is not hard to do.

calvary
07-26-2011, 12:02 AM
Haha! The 1 vote "Christian software doesn't have to be as good of quality as what the world puts out." is actually mine and I am being a bit sarcastic.

The worst way to sell is to charge a lot, then say: "Oh, but it is Christian!" and give you cheap-looking stuff. I don't but it. I'd say, if it is SOOOO Christian that you cannot handle constructive customer suggestions, then stop treating us as customers and give us software for free, as to brothers and sisters in Christ! Then we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, will gladly accept your charity and will stop criticizing anything you do for the Glory of the Lord.

Or is the text in the software is what we pay for it and your "quality" icons are a separate "charity" toward your customer? Is it how we to understand this?



Roshka,

Your comments here are a straw man. It makes no sense that you would post this in expressing your opinion about the icons since no has said "just accept the bad icons because it's Christian software."

This invalidates most of what you've said and makes it seem as though you're not offering any helpful criticism, but just want to vent.

I hope you can see this.

Dave

roshka
07-26-2011, 12:09 AM
Roshka,

Your comments here are a straw man. It makes no sense that you would post this in expressing your opinion about the icons since no has said "just accept the bad icons because it's Christian software."

This invalidates most of what you've said and makes it seem as though you're not offering any helpful criticism, but just want to vent.

I hope you can see this.

Dave

If you read all my posts you would see that I a) have explained what exactly is wrong with the icons and b) have offered at least a few ways to solve the problem.

So, in fact, you have just made a straw man, by misrepresenting my post and my intentions and criticizing both.

Other, however, have suggested that BibleWorks is a "MINISTRY" and also BibleWorks is a "LABOR OF LOVE" as a way to justify bad quality of icon graphics - I didn't say it.

Before accusing me of "just venting" and "setting up a straw man", please take the time to read the thread. Thanks.

bkMitchell
07-26-2011, 12:32 AM
I mean, look at the way God made us - He is classy...
He could have created Adam and said: okay, Adam, good enough, here you have jagged, pixelated ears - after all - ears do not matter much and it is not the main thing in your body! He didn't though!!...

Oh, really or you sure about that?
What about those who are born crippled, without limbs, with deformities, with incurable illness, with MR / Intellectual disabilities, or who are stillborn-ed?
Would that not also be the equivalent of being jagged or pix-elated or would you consider that to be classiness on God's part?

roshka
07-26-2011, 01:01 AM
Oh, really?
What about those who are born crippled, without limbs, with deformities, with incurable illness, with MR / Intellectual disabilities, or who are stillborn-ed?
Would that not also be the equivalent of being jagged or pix-elated!

Oh, WOW!

So, as you own word imply, your BibleWorks program was born "crippled", "without limbs", "with deformities and incurable icons" and also with "intellectual disabilities" ...and mainly, that this is perfectly acceptable????
You evidence a great marketing approach and also a very poor understanding of Scriptures.

God did not create us "crippled, without limbs, with deformities, with incurable illness, with MR / Intellectual disabilities, or who are stillborn-ed" - we BECAME like this on our own, while practicing our freedom of choice and will and separating ourselves from the Lord by our own sinful choices.

I guess you are not in agreement with the Word of God, which says that He created everything perfect? That He had created us in His own image?

Oh, WOW!

bkMitchell
07-26-2011, 01:11 AM
God did not create us "crippled, without limbs, with deformities, with incurable illness, with MR / Intellectual disabilities, or who are stillborn-ed" - we BECAME like this on our own, while practicing our freedom of choice and will and separating ourselves from the Lord by our own sinful choices.
What choices could unborn children make? And, are you saying that God didn't create modern children who are born with issues and challenges?

roshka
07-26-2011, 01:20 AM
Oh, really or you sure about that?
What about those who are born crippled, without limbs, with deformities, with incurable illness, with MR / Intellectual disabilities, or who are stillborn-ed?
Would that not also be the equivalent of being jagged or pix-elated or would you consider that to be classiness on God's part?




...Okay, are you finally done editing your "masterpiece"? I counted at least 5 times you have changed the last sentence, so have you arrived at the desired version finally?



Oh, really or you sure about that?

Oh, yeah, I am PERFECTLY SURE, that DESPITE some people produce jagged, pixelated and imperfect works and still try selling them for big money and also representing it a labor of love, God is God and as He was classy He is classy from the Creation to this day.

Slobs try to diminish His classiness to justify their laziness. That is all it really comes down to. Dare I say!

roshka
07-26-2011, 01:26 AM
What choices could unborn children make? And, are you saying that God didn't create modern children who are born with issues and challenges?




Obviously, HE DIDN'T. Are you joking?

Where do you see in Gen 1 and 2 that He made us crippled or with issues and challenges?

Through Adam, we all have sinned. Even animals who did nothing wrong, are groaning and suffering because of Adam's sin.

Unborn children are with the Lord for eternity - God is in no way unjust. Those children who cannot accept Christ because of their challanges also cannot deny Him, when they go to be with Him, they are in fact, with Him - in no way, the Lord is unjust.

He created a perfect world and he wanted a perfect man to be reigning over a perfect world, but the man chose pride and strife and sin, and thus the first blood was shed by God himself. he slain a lamb and made clothes for an imperfect fallen man. The world became crippled. It was not the way God made it.

roshka
07-26-2011, 01:33 AM
What choices could unborn children make? And, are you saying that God didn't create modern children who are born with issues and challenges?




By the way, if a child is born with a disability - it is for the Glory of the Lord (Jesus Christ) that the works of God should be made manifest in him - believe it or not!!! The Bible tells us about it directly - there's nothing else I can add to it:


And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (John 9:1-3, KJV)


All i can say, as an encouragement to you is if you or your child or your close one were born with a challenge - you should not blame God for it. He IS Perfect and He made us to be perfect and EVEN though we have sinned and made ourselves mortal and with issues, He still had predicted, and planned and provided a way for us to become like Him again, through the blood of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and shed His blood for the remission of our sins. He was buried and then bodily rose from the grave three days and three nights later. Jesus Christ is the Lamb Who was sacrificed for us. Through the blood of Jesus Christ we (all who believe in Him) are made perfect in spirit again (even though we are still in our imperfect bodies)and this is how God sees us (through the blood of Jesus).Eventually, He will give us new bodies in eternity, for now all we can do is to bare with what we have and have Faith and wait for sweet Jesus to come back!

bkMitchell
07-26-2011, 01:42 AM
Through Adam, we all have sinned.

Ah, so that's what you believe. interesting, that is very different from the way I have been taught to read the Pentateuch.

Ron Adair
07-26-2011, 01:56 AM
roshka (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/member.php?5945-roshka)
If you feel that you would be and am ashamed to open the program in front of an unbeliever, I would suggest that you use another program, maybe a free one or you could return BW9 and purchase one in which the icons are more aesthetically pleasing. BibleWorks has a generous refund policy.

"BibleWorks products (the base package, add-on modules, etc.) may be returned for refund within the first 30 days if obtained directly from BibleWorks" (quoted from the BibleWorks Knowledge base)

Incidentally, I like the icons and I am not employed by Bibleworks, just a BW user since version 3.5.

roshka
07-26-2011, 01:56 AM
Ah, so that's what you believe. interesting, that is very different from the way I have been taught to read the Pentateuch.

It is not in Pentateuch:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I Corinthians 15:21-22

To be able to answer such questions you really need to be willing to read through the whole Scriptures. The truth about the Messiah was only in the form of a seed in the Old Testament, in form of prophesies, but in the New Testament, this truth is revealed in full.

Without the understanding of true Salvation through Jesus Christ the Messiah you will not be able to answer such questions about life and death and suffering on earth and why God allows it.

MBushell
07-26-2011, 02:00 AM
If you read all my posts you would see that I a) have explained what exactly is wrong with the icons and b) have offered at least a few ways to solve the problem.


I am closing this thread. It began on a bad note and has only gotten worse. We welcome suggestions if they are offered in a spirit of humilty and gratitude to God. Otherwise not.

MBushell
07-26-2011, 02:02 AM
Not edifying.