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Michael Hanel
07-11-2011, 05:16 PM
BibleWorks 9 more than any other version or any other Bible software program has put the issue of textual criticism on the main stage of Biblical study.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts on that decision is. (Personally I think it's a very good and exciting step, but I'll hopefully add more of my thoughts later)

To start things off, I've written a post on the BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?p=889) about it.

[Also I have to say now that blog posts are going to be much more infrequent than I thought (or wanted). I'm involved in another project that requires more of my concentration. Sorry about that.]

MBushell
07-11-2011, 07:36 PM
BibleWorks 9 more than any other version or any other Bible software program has put the issue of textual criticism on the main stage of Biblical study.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts on that decision is. (Personally I think it's a very good and exciting step, but I'll hopefully add more of my thoughts later)

To start things off, I've written a post on the BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?p=889) about it.

We are very interested in the answer(s) to this question. The work that we have done so far represents a huge investment of time, money and resources. The extent to which we continue the work really depends on the response that we get. My personal belief is that this is an area that has received far too little emphasis. It may be that people are taught in seminary that the controversy over which text most accurately represents the original is over so we don't need to worry about it. But to my mind that is far from the case. I think the popularity of the Robinson-Pierpont text is growing and lots of pastors are asking (and being asked) serious questions about how we deal with those pesky footnotes that say such and such a text is missing from early manuscripts. Books from men like Bart Ehrman are also doing (in my opinion) a great deal of damage, and the damage extends to people in the pews who know nothing about textual criticism. So I think these tools are important. Let us know what you think, either here or on the BibleWorks web site.

Mike Bushell
BibleWorks

Dan Witte
07-11-2011, 08:37 PM
Let us know what you think, either here or on the BibleWorks web site.

Mike Bushell
BibleWorks

Mike,

Beyond all the information at ones fingertips, beyond the ability to show a snapshot of manuscript to someone who doesn't read a word of Greek but asks a question about, say, the ending of Mark, beyond all the study opportunities and possibilities, your commitment to making these types of resources available speaks volumes to what this program is about, fundamentally.

Focus on the text.

That's why I use BibleWorks daily, and wouldn't be without it.

I'll use the CNTTS apparatus, and I look forward to similar OT resources someday in BibleWorks (realizing the differences between OT and NT textual criticism, realizing how huge a project that would be ...).

Dan Witte

jfidel
07-11-2011, 11:06 PM
I have been using BW since 3.5 and have always found the focus to be somewhat specialized and unique. The work done in bringing BW 9 is really amazing, the price is incredible and the innovation in the text critical resources and tools is refreshing.

My only problem is that with this upgrade the program has outgrown my skills and study methods. Being a lay person, I can get what I need regarding textual differences from other sources. While seeing images of the actual documents is cool, my skills do not enable me to benefit from them. The most appealing upgrade for me is the ESV Study Bible that I already own i another software package.

With that said, I do not think the focus of BW should change. The company has a core customer base that can and will use these tools that come with this upgrade, and that need should be met.

Sansom48
07-12-2011, 06:38 AM
As a pastor, I have to admit that I do not always have time (or feel I have time) to look into the critical apparatus and see the variants. Just watching the videos of this most recent addition to BW with the Manuscript project in particular will help me immensly right off the bat. I know it is incomplete with only 7 manuscripts, but there is also the CNTTS that again seeing the videos, looks very helpful. Tischendorf was nice in the version I use now, but I do not, at the present moment, read German making some of the help features of the text useless to me. I am very excited about getting BW9 and being able to do some of this work much faster, much easier, and with the Manuscript project being able to see it laid out in some of the actual manuscripts.

bobvenem
07-12-2011, 10:44 AM
This will speed up my research since there will now be an additional window for all the critical tools.

Clint Yale
07-12-2011, 02:58 PM
Probably the biggest obstacle to accessing the field of classical GNT textual criticism is the language barrier as has been stated in previous posts. This can be overcome by providing resources such as Scrivener's Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament which is in English. I have prepared and encoded an electronic edition which would open up even more of the classical works in textual criticism.
I am presently finishing up encoding the full apparatus of von Soden's Die Schriften des Neuen Testaments in ihrer altesten erreichbaren Textgestalt hergestellt auf Grund ihrer Textgeschichte; I. Teil, Untersuchungen ; II. Teil, Text mit Apparat (4 volumes). I have also finished electronic copies of Benedikt Kraft and Schlussel which are the keys to von Soden. It has been a tremendous undertaking but one that I felt compelled to do after preparing Tischendorf's Editio Octava Critica Maior and Gregory's TEXTKRITIK des Neuen Testaments.

I believe access has never been more open to the layperson since the projects of the New Orleans Critical Apparatus project and Daniel Wallace's team providing high resolution images of the manuscripts.

I believe we are at the beginning stages of GNT critical apparatuses that are open and free from the shackles of restrictive subsidized critical apparatuses. It would be a great service to the scholarly community to proceed in the provision of a GNT Textual Apparatus for ALL to enjoy and not just a select few that can maneuver through encrypted codes.

Clint Yale

Nick Laurence
07-12-2011, 06:36 PM
I haven’t ordered BW9 yet, though I’m sorely tempted – I need to let my finances build up. I agree that the resources on NT textual criticism look great. I really like to see more in future versions for the Hebrew Bible – perhaps the same treatment for Qumran biblical texts that BW9 has given to NT manuscripts.

christlove
07-13-2011, 06:15 AM
http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Spoudason http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25538#post25538)
I am pleased with what BibleWorks does. I need language study helps and resources for my work and not commentaries and sermons material. There are plenty (one in particular) of very expensive programs which contain huge numbers of commentaries (good, bad and indifferent). They have their purpose but I hope BibleWorks keeps and continues to develop excellent Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic resources.
I would definetely expressly underline that. I´m very satisfied with what BW does and how they do things. I hope they never pursue the path of integrating plenty commentaries but instead keep focusing on how BW-Users can study more effectively original biblical texts.

Blessings & thx to all BW-Staff for your brilliant work.

Steffen

Mike,
...that I mean explicitly for textual criticism. I´m glad that BW offers more and more the possibility to go really back to the originally resources and reveals thereby that you are concerned to help the student make an independent and grown-up decision on the text of the new testament.

So keep on doing... ;)

Steffen

Lee
07-13-2011, 02:26 PM
Personally, I'm looking very forward to having the CNTTS apparatus. When I am studying the NT in BW, I typically have my print edition of NA27 open on my desk to consult its apparatus. This will give me easier access to more information, and without having yet used BW9, it looks to be my favorite new feature.

bkMitchell
07-14-2011, 12:24 AM
BibleWorks Manuscripts Project is without a doubt one of the most significant developments for the study of the New Testament. If one seriously believes that Bible is the Word of God rather than simply a vessel for his message then the study of Bible in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic is no longer a luxury but has become a priority. It was in those languages and in the ancient manuscripts that circulated in the communities of faith that the very words of God were first revealed. These were the manuscript that were painstakingly written and protect by and for by the communities of faith long ago. Now, we too can share a part in that. Every Christian is not required to be an expert, but I believe that every Christian should strive to his/her best to be a scholar of the Word.

The reformation helped to put a Bible translation in every Christian hand, Erasmus help to put the GNT to press, Machen and Mounce have done much to revive the study of Greek among Christians, Bible software has help to put basic Greek and Hebrew text with in reach, and now BibleWorks(with the help of other like-minded entities) is helping to put the very manuscripts of the Church (and evident concerning them) into the hands of Christians everywhere. Now, we have been given the ability to come to an educated conclusion and independent conclusion concerning the manuscript and textual variants.

And, BibleWorks is giving us the tools to help out by creating our own projects. It is a blessing that God has allowed us all to live in a time period in which this is possible. Just think in the 1980's it Computers and media did not really have the ability to store photos of multiple manuscripts and digital editions. Also, until the 90's many manuscript like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Leningrad codex were off limits to the public.

Yaku Lee
07-14-2011, 02:43 AM
It is very exciting to expect to view more critical apparatuses on BW9. It is also very exciting to expect to use ancient manuscripts easily. Thus far, it was very difficult to locate the desired verses with Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus that were made available from “User-created databases.”

I personally think it is a very sound and good BW design to try to bring us closer to the Biblical sources.

I appreciate your efforts very much.

Kimba
07-14-2011, 10:40 AM
Textual criticism in BibleWorks 9 is a great add-on.

I was one of the first makers of Textual variants/criticism modules and versions for BibleWorks.

I converted Wieland Wilker's “A Textual Commentary” for BibleWorks use and some manuscripts Vaticanus, Beza,Alexandrinus in HighRes images, Old-Latin versions from manuscripts (Vercellensis, Veronensis and Bobbiensis), a module from Laparola.net apparatus, Von Soden apparatus (HighRes images) and other modules not shared:The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by Rich Elliott and Pericope de adultera by Nazaroo and Mr. Scrivener, Vaticanus Old-Testament (HiRes images) and others....

I am glad that BW9 gives space to textual criticism as a long term project.

I just wanted to say thank you Pasquale because I do use them.

dinosaur
07-15-2011, 01:58 AM
BibleWorks 9 more than any other version or any other Bible software program has put the issue of textual criticism on the main stage of Biblical study.

I'm wondering what people's thoughts on that decision is. (Personally I think it's a very good and exciting step, but I'll hopefully add more of my thoughts later)

To start things off, I've written a post on the BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?p=889) about it.

I've already hinted to my family what I want for Christmas (or my birthday)....if they somehow don't find a way to get BW9 upgrade...I will have to take matters into my own hands.... ;)

MBD
07-15-2011, 06:17 PM
Am I missing something or do all of the impressive text critical additions to BW9 pertain to just the NT? We need something similar for the Hebrew Bible with variants from different Masoretic mss, Qumran, etc.

Sansom48
07-15-2011, 08:50 PM
Am I missing something or do all of the impressive text critical additions to BW9 pertain to just the NT? We need something similar for the Hebrew Bible with variants from different Masoretic mss, Qumran, etc.

I agree, I did ask Mike Hanel about the possibilities of importing pictures of the DSS into the Manuscript project, but was told that at the time it was not set up to handle it. On the other hand, I am very pleased with all the critical tools that BW 9 does have.

CaiTal
07-16-2011, 03:43 AM
I am a rather new BW user though I have used Greek & Hebrew since I learned them in the early 90ies at Regent College and studied with the likes of Gordon Fee and Bruce Waltke. I have since worked & lectured at several seminaries, and that is my present occupation here in Finland.

I have suffered from health problems so I have been on sick leave for several years. As I started lecturing again and looked into the software available, and found a treasure almost beyond comprehension: BW8! And now BW9!!! I just got the notice that my BW9 has shipped, and I am so waiting to get acquainted with it.

I sure hope you extend the excellent work you are doing to the Hebrew Bible, but you have made my work as a lecturer and a preacher so much easier. I thank you for all your efforts to further the Gospel!

Cai
MDiv -93 (Regent College)
Finland

dinosaur
07-17-2011, 02:07 AM
I've already hinted to my family what I want for Christmas (or my birthday)....if they somehow don't find a way to get BW9 upgrade...I will have to take matters into my own hands.... ;)

ok....I couldn't wait - it's gonna be Christmas in July- I ordered it today ! :)

Nihao
12-23-2011, 04:41 PM
This message is primarily for Clint Yale. And I'm sorry for posting here instead of in the non-Bibleworks forum!

Dear Clint,

How can Accordance contact you to inquire about making your incredible work on von Soden available to Accordance users? Or could you contact them?

Sincerely,

Jonathan C. Borland

Clint Yale
12-23-2011, 10:21 PM
This message is primarily for Clint Yale. And I'm sorry for posting here instead of in the non-Bibleworks forum!

Dear Clint,

How can Accordance contact you to inquire about making your incredible work on von Soden available to Accordance users? Or could you contact them?

Sincerely,

Jonathan C. Borland

If you would put in a request to them for von Soden they have all my contact information filed under Tischendorf.:)

Nihao
12-24-2011, 04:53 AM
Dear Clint,<br><br>Thank you! I had just put in a request on their "Module Request" forum before I posted here. I hope they contact you soon!<br><br>Sincerely,<br><br>Jonathan C. Borland<br>

brainout
03-27-2012, 09:05 AM
Personally, I'm looking very forward to having the CNTTS apparatus. When I am studying the NT in BW, I typically have my print edition of NA27 open on my desk to consult its apparatus. This will give me easier access to more information, and without having yet used BW9, it looks to be my favorite new feature.

I'm looking for the best listing of ALL the variants I can find, whether in print or within BibleWorks. I have BW8 and BW5 severally, and from what I can tell, they group the variants by families, not every text. Is there anything in software or print which catalogues ALL the variants, be it in OT or New?

Am slavering to get BW9 as well, but that will have to wait for Christmas. :)

Thank you in advance for any reply you care to give.

DavidR
03-27-2012, 11:23 AM
One print resource is Reuben J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Variant Readings arranged in Horizontal Lines against Codex Vaticanus, beginning 1994. For a description of an earlier version of this, which will give you the general idea, see http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/CriticalEds.html#Swanson. I'm not sure how many volumes Swanson was able to produce before his death, or whether the project is still ongoing. I know that at least all 4 gospels were put into print. The format makes it possible to see all attested variant readings in any given passage.

MGVH
03-27-2012, 11:32 AM
There is the series edited by Swanson on NT Greek Manuscripts (HERE (http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Greek-Manuscripts-Matthew/dp/0865850518/ref=pd_sim_b_3) is Matthew, and you can follow the Amazon links to the rest of the volumes), but I don't know that you can do any better than the CNTTS Apparatus provided in BW9. It's just the NT, but it's a pretty stunning resource.
970

brainout
03-27-2012, 12:03 PM
One print resource is Reuben J. Swanson, New Testament Greek Manuscripts: Variant Readings arranged in Horizontal Lines against Codex Vaticanus, beginning 1994. For a description of an earlier version of this, which will give you the general idea, see http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/CriticalEds.html#Swanson. I'm not sure how many volumes Swanson was able to produce before his death, or whether the project is still ongoing. I know that at least all 4 gospels were put into print. The format makes it possible to see all attested variant readings in any given passage.

Thank you! This is quite helpful. Honestly, I wish we all didn't have to eat or sleep but could just spend all our time cataloguing like this. At a glance views of the differences would quell so many concerns. Thank you again!

DavidR
03-27-2012, 12:35 PM
Yeah, eating, sleeping, bathing, other people.... Bummer. :D

brainout
03-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Yeah, eating, sleeping, bathing, other people.... Bummer. :D

LOL I wrote to skypoint to tell them you gave me that FABULOUS link, but called you 'Dan'! BUMMMMMERRRRRRR!

Now will go maxima mea culpa to my laptop and see if I can make the colors in the TAR disappear. :)

EDIT: oh boy, now I get variant colors on everything EXCEPT the TAR. Tested it on Genesis 1:1, every 'Hebrew' option BW8 has. I even tried right-clicking ON the TAR text, to severally choose the color, and it was no color, no dice. Tried exporting, no color.

It does matter that you fill in all those Targum Variant color options boxes, not just the first four. Each box stands for a particular version, and you don't know which one until after you've made color choices for all the boxes. But none of them seem to 'match' the TAR itself. It's deemed the control text, so doesn't get a 'variant' color...?

My BW8 is on XP Home, latest service packs installed. Acer Aspire netbook, if that matters. My IE settings don't matter for this. They only matter for the modules (I think I have them all, except the politically-correct modules where God has to be translated 'she', etc).

brainout
03-27-2012, 05:57 PM
There is the series edited by Swanson on NT Greek Manuscripts (HERE (http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Greek-Manuscripts-Matthew/dp/0865850518/ref=pd_sim_b_3) is Matthew, and you can follow the Amazon links to the rest of the volumes), but I don't know that you can do any better than the CNTTS Apparatus provided in BW9. It's just the NT, but it's a pretty stunning resource.
970

Thank you. I will get BW9 later in the year, dying to see the mss 'live', anyway. I wish I had a billion dollars, I'd put it all in a trust fund solely to create a collation project to get all the variants indexed into standardized apparati everyone can read at a glance. I've never gotten over learning about the grand collaboration in the mid 1800's. You guys and those guys, are the heroes. EVERY SCHOLAR IN BIBLE IS UNDERPAID!

I asked God for it, too. Yikes. What if He says Yes? I asked Him to kill Bin Laden two years ago...