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Dave Hindley
07-09-2011, 11:05 AM
Hello,

I recently updated to BW8 , and perhaps my blood sugar is too low, but I cannot seem to find any searchable texts of Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus or Tertullian. It seems that these were available in BW6.

Now I am aware that the Early Church Fathers series "edited by Schaff" (actually, he only edited the Post Nicene volumes, Donaldson & Roberts edited the Ante Nicene volumes) is in a kind of module from CCEL, but it is not the same.

What's up??

PS: Why hasn't anyone created modules with the Greek & Latin texts of these Church fathers? It seems that these sorts of things are available online, so licensing surely is not out of the question. What I wouldn't give to search Irenaeus, Tertullian, Eusebius, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, etc, in English, Greek & Latin through BibleWorks!

Dave

Michael Hanel
07-09-2011, 11:10 AM
Hello,

I recently updated to BW8 , and perhaps my blood sugar is too low, but I cannot seem to find any searchable texts of Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus or Tertullian. It seems that these were available in BW6.

Now I am aware that the Early Church Fathers series "edited by Schaff" (actually, he only edited the Post Nicene volumes, Donaldson & Roberts edited the Ante Nicene volumes) is in a kind of module from CCEL, but it is not the same.

What's up??

PS: Why hasn't anyone created modules with the Greek & Latin texts of these Church fathers? It seems that these sorts of things are available online, so licensing surely is not out of the question. What I wouldn't give to search Irenaeus, Tertullian, Eusebius, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, etc, in English, Greek & Latin through BibleWorks!

Dave

There is an English module like that on the BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?page_id=138) (look under Church Fathers). Is that what you meant? That's the only thing I'm aware of. A few of us started that project but quit it after we learned that the Church Fathers would be available in another form.

As far as adding the Greek and Latin texts, by all means I would love it. I'm even willing to do it. But here's what you need to do, find versions of these Fathers and post the links here. What I have found so far is that where versions do exist, they are still copyrighted (and thus cannot be used freely) or they are in a form that is too difficult to convert. But I would love to be corrected. Show me some of the stuff you're talking about.

Kimba
07-09-2011, 01:18 PM
I might help with a project like this. For fun I once wrote a program that read the entire NT (from BW) placed every word in the database in unicode than I cut and pasted an unaccented Greek text and let my tool covert it to the accented. Yes, not every word converted but the vast majority did and all those that did had to be processed and then the text was accented.

The other issues that has to be dealt with are those words that are the same but different accenting. But those can be tagged and processed by a someone.

Michael Hanel
07-09-2011, 01:24 PM
It would be a fun (but difficult) project indeed. But like I said, the problem is that the available texts (that I've found) really aren't all that available. You can use some of them on the free version of the TLG, but you can't use their versions because they hold the copyright on the digitizing of the texts. You can find PDFs of Migne texts but a) those texts are ancient and hardly ever the best critical text available and b) it's a nightmare to try to OCR or type from the quality of PDFs that are available. And if I'm going to go blind, I'd like to do it using a quality text. And there are at least a couple of sites that provide PDF of the Migne text in nice Greek, but generally they seem to indicate that the text they are providing is that of TLG, not their own.

One could use Roger Pearse's website (http://www.tertullian.org) to get Tertullian made into a proper Latin version, but I must admit, because its Tertullian, I've never really been that excited to start such a project.

So that's why I said, I would be glad to learn where texts are available that can be freely used!

bink
07-09-2011, 11:28 PM
Michael,

All these user-created versions under the BW Blog- are they found in BW8 or 9 or extra's we can add to our database for use? In other words, the many you've seemed to post/list there yourself... are they offered b/c we don't have them in the BW program?

I've added a few (Homer, Demosthenes, etc) at least for the experience of trying and learning how to do this. Or this Pearse file 'Other Early Church Father's'... already in BW8 and I just haven't got to it yet?

Thanks, John

Michael Hanel
07-10-2011, 12:52 AM
Bink, in general the files on the BibleWorks blog are not found in any of the versions of BibleWorks. There are exceptions to this, but we try to identify them. For instance offering Tregelles in BW9 is an exception to this. So you wouldn't need that if you're using BW9. We haven't deleted files that are included in BW generally because not all people will upgrade and the user files are meant for users whether or not they make it into a BW package.

bink
07-10-2011, 09:04 AM
Michael,

I hope this install practicing is an example of what is true for all files I hope to figure out and add to my BW8 program.

Here's what I did: from a list of several like cdg.ddf, cdl.ddf, cre.ddf... I chose and downloaded and saved the anf.ddf file (Ante-NF). Went to the Version Database Compiler and followed steps (under #1 DDF... placed c:\program files\bibleworks 8\userdb\anf.ddf and then under #2 Database Raw put c:\program files\bibleworks 8\userdb\anf.txt, checked "install", clicked "compile") and it shows '0 verses, 1 ch, 0 bks, 0 blanks, etc) 'database has all blank verses.' For that matter, then closing and reopening BW I don't even know where to then look if it were even in there!

I'm probably missing just a small divot of one of the steps if not simply misunderstanding. Wish I wasn't pc illiterate and I know this is not worth your time. I will follow the advice of 'read BW help files' as my due diligence homework. I'm obviously missing something and if possible send me to a 'help link' to figure it out. Though the directions on the Blog don't seem to help me with this problem.

John

Michael Hanel
07-10-2011, 12:57 PM
Some files are easier to install than others. There are two different kinds of Bible versions on the blogs (we started doing them one way and then sort of changed and haven't gone back and re-did the old files). The first kind is like this where you actually have to run them through the compiler yourself. The other kind is already compiled. Those just need to be saved in the \databases\ folder.

And then there are all the module files. Those have a special quirk caused by Windows where the files need to be manually unblocked in order to be used.

Anyway, on your problem. You'll be happy to know I'm quite sure the problem is a user error. :p When you unzipped the files from ANF.zip, where exactly did you place them? Based on what you said, you should have unzipped the entire zip file to the \userdb\ folder. After having unzipped the entire folder there, you start the Version Database Compiler. Navigate to open the anf.ddf and then make sure you double check the next box so that it knows where your anf.txt file is. If you've tried that and it's still not working I'm not entirely sure. Just to make sure I just downloaded the files myself and tried it out and it worked just fine.

If you still haven't got it let me know and I'll have a plan B.

Mark Eddy
07-11-2011, 01:12 AM
On thing you have to beware of with the user database compiler .ddf files is that they list the location of the corresponding database raw text file. If the files were posted back in BW6 or BW7, they will look for the .txt file in the BibleWorks 6 or 7 folder. If you actually have the text files in the BW8 folder (or BW9 folder), then you have to change the location of the .txt file in the .ddf file in line 2 of the Version Database Compiler. I have made the mistake of using an older .ddf file and not checking where it put the location of the .txt file. And I wondered why it did not compile: the program was looking in a location where I had not put the file. As long as you make sure your .ddf file locates the .txt file where it actually is, you should not have a problem installing it (if you remember to check the box "install after compiling"--I have made the mistake of compiling without checking that box and wondered why I could not find the file).
Mark Eddy

Dave Hindley
07-16-2011, 11:57 AM
There is an English module like that on the BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?page_id=138) (look under Church Fathers). Is that what you meant? That's the only thing I'm aware of. A few of us started that project but quit it after we learned that the Church Fathers would be available in another form.

As far as adding the Greek and Latin texts, by all means I would love it. I'm even willing to do it. But here's what you need to do, find versions of these Fathers and post the links here. What I have found so far is that where versions do exist, they are still copyrighted (and thus cannot be used freely) or they are in a form that is too difficult to convert. But I would love to be corrected. Show me some of the stuff you're talking about.

Michael,

I would recommend contacting Ben C Smith, who has ferreted out a good number of unicode Greek texts of various fathers for his "Text Excavation" webpage. His contact info is at www.textexcavation.com (http://www.textexcavation.com).

For instance, Eusebius' Church History is available in Unicode Greek here:

http://users.uoa.gr/~nektar/orthodoxy/history/eysebios_ecclesia_historia.htm

The Unicode Greek of Eusebius' Church History, Preparation and Demonstration are all available at a French language site, here (http://hodoi.fltr.ucl.ac.be/concordances/#Eusebe). Ben also seems to have figured out how to convert various fonts into unicode.

Irenaeus' Against Heresies is both Latin and Greek Fragments in W Wigan Harvey's Sancti Irenaei episcopi Lugdunensis Libros quinque adversus haereses (2 volumes). Unfortunately it is in image format only, but it seems that at very least the Latin, and perhaps even the Greek, can be scanned using something like ABBYY FineReader 10.

Vol 1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=9hhGAAAAcAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22William%20Wigan%20Harvey%22&pg=PP5#v=onepage&q&f=false) Vol 2 (http://books.google.com/books?id=dj0XAAAAIAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22William%20Wigan%20Harvey%22&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Hope this helps. A lot of the newer unicode resources have appeared in the last 3 years or so.

Dave Hindley

Michael Hanel
07-16-2011, 12:21 PM
See I'm glad I asked because I didn't know about those sites. It seems like there are only two real issues. 1) Figuring out what the source is of the text on those sites and 2) getting permission to use the texts from them. While I do have a French reading knowledge, I certainly don't know any Russian, so contacting these people is a bit difficult. One could use them and simply "trust" that they are okay, but that really hasn't been how we've done things in the past. We generally assume things are not legit until we know different. It might be possible that we make exception and try this stuff out, but there are two things to keep in mind, a) we don't want to get BibleWorks as a company dragged through the mud because of copyright violations (even though these are user-projects) and b) we don't personally want to get ourselves dragged through the mud either, because that's not a lot of fun.

So, I'll look into this stuff, but no promises on my end. But I'm definitely glad you pointed them out. I was not aware there was so much stuff out there!

Michael Hanel
02-02-2012, 11:38 AM
I've been able to make a lot more progress at this now and there is actually a version of the Church Fathers that includes Greek, Latin and English versions. It doesn't have all the texts you might want, but it's a start!

You can see it all on the unofficial BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?p=1093).

bink
02-10-2012, 09:31 AM
I've been able to make a lot more progress at this now and there is actually a version of the Church Fathers that includes Greek, Latin and English versions. It doesn't have all the texts you might want, but it's a start!

You can see it all on the unofficial BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?p=1093).

Michael,

Are the following instructions (listed below) good/valid for downloading "Versions" such as your works on Plato, Homer, Julius Caesar, etc? I tried to copy these files to my data base (as I somehow, miraculously, did successfully for Eusebius EH) but it says these files are 'already present... want to copy, replace?'. When I go to copy/paste this the date for Plato shows "2006" but I can't find it when I open BW8. ? Is the AN-F database or many of these files I have in BW8 already? 1 step forward, 2 back. Sorry I'm a novice at all this.

john

1. Unzip the files to the \databases\ subfolder in your BibleWorks folder and restart BibleWorks. The new versions will use the version IDs CF-G for the Greek version, CF-L for the Latin version, and CF-E for the English translations.


2. In order to get the book names to show up correctly you must also add any of the missing lines to your books.bna file (which is found in the BibleWorks subfolder called \init\ and can be opened with a simple text editor like Notepad)

Michael Hanel
02-10-2012, 09:42 AM
Michael,

Are the following instructions (listed below) good/valid for downloading "Versions" such as your works on Plato, Homer, Julius Caesar, etc? I tried to copy these files to my data base (as I somehow, miraculously, did successfully for Eusebius EH) but it says these files are 'already present... want to copy, replace?'. When I go to copy/paste this the date for Plato shows "2006" but I can't find it when I open BW8. ? Is the AN-F database or many of these files I have in BW8 already? 1 step forward, 2 back. Sorry I'm a novice at all this.

john

1. Unzip the files to the \databases\ subfolder in your BibleWorks folder and restart BibleWorks. The new versions will use the version IDs CF-G for the Greek version, CF-L for the Latin version, and CF-E for the English translations.


2. In order to get the book names to show up correctly you must also add any of the missing lines to your books.bna file (which is found in the BibleWorks subfolder called \init\ and can be opened with a simple text editor like Notepad)

The simple answer is no. You can see this page (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?page_id=244) for more clarification.

It's been a number of years since I made some of those first files available, so they don't all work the same. If you download the version files and see inside the .zip that it contains files that have .txt and .ddf endings, that means those files are plain-text and need to be compiled via BW's Version Database Compiler. I think for most of those older files there is some sort of readme.txt that should explain that process. But that's why simply unzipping and copying those files to the \databases\ folder will not make them work.

For newer files, since we realized that people were getting confused, we just went and zipped the files that had already been compiled, so all users need to do is put those in the \databases\ folder. And that's why there are two different processes.

bink
02-10-2012, 10:05 AM
"The simple answer is no" is so telling. As soon as I posted this question I walked away wondering why this is so hard for me at times, or so simple elsewhere?' It's hard if/when one has to put in the time, do the the hard work, many hours, tedious typing, or reading and learning about it. Conversely, when others (you, Michael, and many others) do the hard work it seems so simple.

Thanks so much for your hard work on Eusebius EH (simple for a user such as I but undoubtedly much time/effort was put into it to be able to easily add it to BW8 or newer) and all the files you created Mike. I'll keep reading and learning up on all this. john

bink
02-10-2012, 11:24 AM
Michael,

Somehow, as if the first week of Hebrew, or like that single computer class I took back in the late 80's (my only formal computer class ever out of almost 300 credit hours- tell you something?) where my brain was hurting, it was the same at the first glance and attempt to work the Version download, copy/paste, and VDC process.

However, I read the directions again :D, carefully, and followed them with fresh eyes and have been able to download many of the DB's you have posted. I feel like I've won the Classics Lotto! Thanks for the sweat you put into it!

john

Michael Hanel
02-10-2012, 01:00 PM
Michael,

Somehow, as if the first week of Hebrew, or like that single computer class I took back in the late 80's (my only formal computer class ever out of almost 300 credit hours- tell you something?) where my brain was hurting, it was the same at the first glance and attempt to work the Version download, copy/paste, and VDC process.

However, I read the directions again :D, carefully, and followed them with fresh eyes and have been able to download many of the DB's you have posted. I feel like I've won the Classics Lotto! Thanks for the sweat you put into it!

john

Glad you got it working. We have tried to make is easier, but trying to guess what people know and don't know about computers is always difficult. We do our best to make it easy, but understand that not everyone gets it the first time.

bink
02-12-2012, 07:22 PM
Michael, any module available or companion handbook, dictionary, or lexicon you suggest for translatign the Latin? jwb

Michael Hanel
02-12-2012, 07:40 PM
Michael, any module available or companion handbook, dictionary, or lexicon you suggest for translatign the Latin? jwb

There's not a lot of helps out there that I know of for Tertullian and Minucius as far as commentaries (although to be fair, I'm not an expert in that field either). If you haven't seen Robert Pearse's website (http://www.tertullian.org), you should check it out, it probably has links to better bibliographies. Otherwise, there is no quick solution to your question. I'd generally use the Lewis-Short Lexicon to look words up and if you need grammatical reminders you probably can use Allen and Greenough's or some other reference grammar. Tertullian and Minucius are post-classical writers, but things aren't that dramatically different that you can't figure them out if you already know Latin.