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Schouten
07-02-2011, 12:37 PM
I start using Bibleworks with version 3.5. It soon became an indispensable part of my daily work. To this time, I still use it every day as I prepare sermons and also for my own devotional reading of Scripture. However, for average ministers such as myself, who can read Greek and Hebrew but are not specialized scholars, Bibleworks is getting really bloated. I'm looking for a reduced version with a smaller array of English texts, one standard Greek text, the BHS and a few basic tools such as lexicons. I believe there is a large market for such a package. Even though I'm an avid user of BW 8.0, there is a huge array of material it that I will never use.

FredGreco
07-02-2011, 01:20 PM
I start using Bibleworks with version 3.5. It soon became an indispensable part of my daily work. To this time, I still use it every day as I prepare sermons and also for my own devotional reading of Scripture. However, for average ministers such as myself, who can read Greek and Hebrew but are not specialized scholars, Bibleworks is getting really bloated. I'm looking for a reduced version with a smaller array of English texts, one standard Greek text, the BHS and a few basic tools such as lexicons. I believe there is a large market for such a package. Even though I'm an avid user of BW 8.0, there is a huge array of material it that I will never use.

I am not sure that there is a market for this, but I hear what you are saying. When I saw the BW9 materials, I was immediately struck how I would like never use a huge section of the "improvements" - the manuscript material. As a busy pastor with shepherding duties, denominational duties, and other tasks, I simply do not have 20 hours a week to delve through images of manuscripts.

Not that I begrudge those who will use that, but I wonder if BW would benefit from offering (for example) a manuscript less (or other reduced package) for a lesser price. The reductions could then be offered as an add-on (with a suitable markup to avoid piecemeal buying as a rule of thumb).

Just a thought.

Lee
07-02-2011, 02:05 PM
To offer a reduced package at reduced cost would likely necessitate raising the cost of the standard BW package.

BW offers so much more than almost any of us will find opportunity to use on a regular basis. But at $359, it's plenty worth it for the features that I do regularly use.

MBushell
07-02-2011, 09:14 PM
To offer a reduced package at reduced cost would likely necessitate raising the cost of the standard BW package.

This is definitely the case. We have deliberately chosen to avoid the typical marketing approaches of different levels and multitudes of add ons. If we did that the low end would soak up all the sales and those who really need the more advanced tools would not be able to afford them. And a lot of students of the word would never find out how useful those "advanced" tools can be. We try to avoid adding anything to the package that we don't feel most pastors will eventually need. Some of the tools could be called "advanced" but that is a misnomer. Preaching the word is a profession and it really does require professional tools focused on the task at hand. With regard to the text-critical tools it is our belief that too many pastors ignore this area because they think it is too hard, time-comsuning, or difficult. But how can a minister preach authoritatively on Scripture when his hearers are continually confronted with notes in their Bibles saying that such and such verse really is or isn't there in the original manuscripts? Most pastors just slide over these issues. That is a mistake I believe. Every minister of the gospel should study the issues enough to come to his own conclusions about what the text really is. We believe we need to try to provide the tools necessary to help with that task. We don't view these new tools as "scholarly" add ons. Of course others will disagree and that is OK. But that is why we have chosen to add some of these new tools. The base package price may seem high, but ask a plumber or architect how much he spends on professional tools! In another life I was a physicist and it was not uncommon to pay more for one book than BibleWorks now costs!

Mike

ISalzman
07-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Great answer, Mike. I agree fully. One of my former profs used to say, "The first job of the interpreter is to establish what the text is/was." You cannot preach on a text unless you have firm convictions about what that text is. At some points, English versions differ significantly. A preacher, like it or not, has to determine which reading is the most likely. Thus, it is virtually impossible not to have to make text-critical decisions. (The new CNTTS apparatus is a fabulous new addition in this regard!)

johns
07-05-2011, 05:16 AM
Bibleworks is getting really bloated.

Exactly. And despite the huge amount of bloat added with each "upgrade", features that I used are being taken OUT!

My favorite resource, A.T. Robertsons Word Pictures was removed in the move from 7 to 8. Licencing issues were blamed: "Sadly, due to circumstances beyond our control, our license for this text has lapsed. We are, therefore, no longer able to include this work in the program. This is not a decision on our part, but on that of the publisher that holds the copyright for that resource. We regret any inconvenience that this may cause our customers."

The official suggestion from BW that we use a web-based solution instead seems a cop-out to me. The FREE program E-sword has this resource built-in for FREE. Its a public domain resource, and as a layman I found it to be one of the most understandable Greek resources BW has to offer. Now its gone. I can run BW 7 in a Windows XP virtual machine, but should I have too just to use a resource I have already paid for?

I started with BW 4. Upgraded each time through 5,6,7, and 8. Now in version 9 more resources are being dropped. According to the BW website, the 1984 NIV is not being supplemented with the 2011 NIV in BW9, but REPLACED! Along with TNIV if anyone used that one.

The 1984 NIV has 42% market share in printed Bibles and is the most popular english translation. And it will be removed from Bibleworks and replaced with the 2011 version that churches are already rejecting?

Like the OP, I would LOVE to be able to go back to BW 4. Maybe 5 or 6. With updated resources. I was forced to upgrade to BW8 in order to move to Windows 7, but not only was the program not any better for what I use it for, but the ability to easily manage a partial installation became a nightmare. Bloat is a nice word for it. There is no easy way to ... say just install English and Greek resources. You have to sort through dozens of resources and check them off one-by-one, looking them up and figuring out what they are as you go. The only easy installation is a full one. Hope you have plenty of space!

I am not only into Bible software but I work with computers too. And I have a prediction. If the BW developers do not adapt to changing technology, eventually the superior resources will be less of a factor. Yes, the interface, and possibly the entire codebase must be adapted to advances in technology. Yes, there needs to be a way to install only the features you need. Yes, there needs to be an easy way to easily store the help videos, maps, and other space hogging resources on removable media or webservers. Yes, there needs to be an iPhone app, iPad app and an Android app, not necessarily in that order. If BW doesn't do it, their competition will.

I haven't posted here a lot, but I have read a lot. Enough to predict that any official response will be something like: "we have limited development resources and those things are not feasable."

Meanwhile each successive version has more new commentaries and resources, the very things that Bibleworks in the beginning advised you NOT to buy in electronic form.

Focus on the text (unless you use any of these: TNIV, NIV-1984, Holman Christian Standard Bible-2004 or New American Bible). If you used any of those, and I am certain a LOT of BW users use the 1984 NIV, you will have to change to a different translation.

But you will be able to add lots of new commentaries instead. Gee I can't wait to upgrade, lose more of the best features and gain a bunch of commentaries I already have in my super-bloated Libronix software.

Ok I'm done complaining now.

bkMitchell
07-05-2011, 08:28 AM
Hello Johns,

Okay, I will attempt to answer your questions:



Now in version 9 more resources are being dropped. According to the BW website, the 1984 NIV is not being supplemented with the 2011 NIV in BW9, but REPLACED! Along with TNIV if anyone used that one.
If, you are upgrading to version 9 you get to keep NIV 1984, and the TNIV. And, I believe this is do to much pleading and deal making on BWs part.
Check it out!

The following are no longer included in BibleWorks:


TNIV
NIV (1984) [replaced by NIV 2011]
Holman Christian Standard Bible, 2004 [replaced by Holman CSB 2nd edition]
New American Bible [replaced by New American Bible, revised edition]

If you are a registered user:) and are upgrading from BibleWorks 8 to BibleWorks 9, you will be sent free of charge:D a set of activation codes enabling you to import the above databases from your BibleWorks 8 license.
(link) (http://www.bibleworks.com/content/replaced.html)


Moving on to you 2nd comment/question...

If BW doesn't do it, their competition will.
Logos, and Accordance (the competition sort of) already have gone mobile. So, that's not much of a prediction. But, I'll give you credit for trying.

Okay, next question...


I haven't posted here a lot, but I have read a lot. Enough to predict that any official response will be something like: "we have limited development resources and those things are not feasable."
Nice, guess but the official response is...

Periodically customers enthusiastic about BibleWorks suggest that the company market an implementation of BibleWorks on a handheld device, such as a smart phone (Android, Blackberry, iPhone, etc.) or tablet (iPad, etc.).

Such an implementation would necessarily be limited to a subset of BibleWorks function in that handheld devices, for all their virtues, are less capable than personal computers, in processing power and/or in user interfaces. Development and maintenance of this subset implementation would increase BibleWorks staffing and hence costs to our customers. Consequently, we want to approach it with caution. But we are considering it.

We note concurrently that products of near-handheld-size, such as mini-notebooks, already have the capability of running BibleWorks. We foresee such products soon migrating to handheld size, making a port of BibleWorks to existing handheld devices of only temporary utility.

We appreciate and are complimented by the kind suggestions and the sincere motivation of those who would like to see more people obtaining access to BibleWorks. We also believe, however, that by our keeping our costs and therefore prices low, more and more people will indeed eventually have access to the excellent capabilities BibleWorks has to offer. In this way, these people will have a product that will grow with them as God leads them further into the blessings of sincere and deep study of His incomparable Word.

Last update: RRG/February 16, 2011(link) (http://kb.bibleworksllc.com/ikb/questions.php?questionid=11)

Now, for the final comment:


Focus on the text (unless you use any of these: TNIV, NIV-1984, Holman Christian Standard Bible-2004 or New American Bible). If you used any of those, and I am certain a LOT of BW users use the 1984 NIV, you will have to change to a different translation.For statistical evidence of English interpretations(or translations) used by BibleWorks users check out the following polls: (poll one) (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?878-Bible-Versions-Poll-question-2&highlight=Bible+version+poll) and (poll two) (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?878-Bible-Versions-Poll-question-2&highlight=Bible+version+poll)

But, smile:) you can still "Focus on the text" and your loved translations, too as you get to keep them. But, please keep in mind the following words of truth...

"The real New testament is the Greek New Testament. The English is only a translation of the New testament, not the actual New Testament."
A. T. Robertson

"The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them."
Westminster Confession of Faith

johns
07-05-2011, 08:56 PM
Hello Johns,

Okay, I will attempt to answer your questions:

I didn't recall asking any questions, but thanks for the links; other people might find them useful. I had already seen all of them.

The BW response you quoted, if I may paraphrase is that if we wait long enough, portable devices will adapt and become powerful enough to run our obsolete PC software.

It isn't happening. The new mobile world is becoming a contest between Apple iOS and Google Android. Microsoft knows this now, as anyone who follows recent developements would know. Windows 7 is not going to be running on your smartphone device anytime soon. That is why Microsoft is scrambling to develop Windows mobile 7.

Your other comments seem to imply that I just need to learn Greek, then I wouldn't need tools like BW, Word Pictures, or english translations. Well duh! A desire to learn more about Greek was the reason I purchased BW in the first place.

Your post is a bit arrogant if I may say so. And if I may point it out, your post was written in English.

John

bkMitchell
07-05-2011, 10:20 PM
Hello Johns,


Your post is a bit arrogant if I may say so.
Yes, you may and I admit I was arrogant. I apologize.

But, please understand I also found your post to be pretty arrogant and highly offensive as well.
BibleWorks has not yet even released their new version and rather than sending them a note in private you publicly call their program 'obsolete' and criticize their product.
For, what purpose?

It's not like they have time to re-code their program before they release version 9.
What kind of response were you hoping for?



And if I may point it out, your post was written in English.
If, you would like me to write in another Language I can(link) (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?4840-Add-Japanese-discussion-in-Forum-please%21&highlight=Japanese+forums).
日本語できますか?
バイブルワークスが大好き!

אתה מדבר עברית

(I can also try to write to you in Koine if you'd like?)

However, I always encourage Christians to study Greek (or Latin) the language of their Bible just I was encouraged the language of my Bible. My Motto is Ad Fontes & חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
and although I am not a fundamentalist my attitude (and others in this movement) toward the liturgical/ecclesiastical language Canons of Scripture probably approaches that.

Either way you get to keep the NIV1984 translation and others. So, it's all good, right?

MBushell
07-05-2011, 10:59 PM
Hi Johns,

I don't want to get involved in a long dispute about the various issues that you brought up, but from my perspective as the owner of BibleWorks, I think you are being very unfair. Every one of your complaints has a reasonable answer, which we would gladly have given if you had asked.

To begin with, the items which we have removed were removed for two reasons. In a few cases the royalties were raised several hundred percent and we had to remove the items or move them to modules. All of the other items were removed because there were copyright or licensing issues. The fact that many sites still have the full Robertson's Word Pictures has no bearing on our decision to remove it. There is a common belief that RWP is in the public domain. It is not and many sites display the text illegally. We try to obey the law. With respect to the removal of certain Bible versions, we have gone to great lengths to enable upgraders to keep the old versions, but most publishers require the removal of old versions when they produce a major update. Zondervan is no longer licensing the old NIV. Those few people still selling it are doing so under an old contract and when the contract expires, they will have to stop selling it. The same is true of the new NAB. I don't understand why you feel the need to attack us for complying with licensing requirements.

With regard to bloat, one reason for what you perceive as bloat is that we usually comply with users requests to keep old features around when we add new ones. And we don't add features haphazardly. In most cases new features and databases are added because users have requested them. I don't think there is any bloat in our new release. Every feature is there for a reason and every feature meets a need. You castigate us for removing things and then castigate us again for not removing things. To be honest I am not sure what we can do to make you happy. But we will keep trying.

Mike Bushell
BibleWorks

Michael Hanel
07-05-2011, 11:04 PM
Exactly. And despite the huge amount of bloat added with each "upgrade", features that I used are being taken OUT!

My favorite resource, A.T. Robertsons Word Pictures was removed in the move from 7 to 8. Licencing issues were blamed: "Sadly, due to circumstances beyond our control, our license for this text has lapsed. We are, therefore, no longer able to include this work in the program. This is not a decision on our part, but on that of the publisher that holds the copyright for that resource. We regret any inconvenience that this may cause our customers."



I'm puzzled by why you would post this here, but I'll pass this by.

If you were an active part of the BibleWorks forums and came here in a respectful tone, I might be willing to help you. BibleWorks no longer has Robertson's Word Pictures. You can light a fire outside their home office and start picketing, but apparently that's not going to do any difference and will be a huge waste of your time. So let's adopt a different tactic.

If you came here saying, Word Pictures is gone and I really did appreciate using it, is there any thing users can come up with, I might suggest numerous ways you could try to fix the situation. Some of them would take a bit of time and energy. Others would be a bit easier. If you were kind, I might even tell you that you could get 2/3 of what you're looking for just by going to this website (http://www.ccel.org/r/robertson_at/wordpictures/htm/TOC.RWP.html). If you said, that's fine, but that doesn't help me, I might point out that you could make HTML files into your own BibleWorks module. If you couldn't figure out how to do that, but were still willing to put in effort, I would probably help you out even more. In fact, right now I have a custom HTML module of Robertson's Word Pictures that I made from that website in less time than you've spent being angry and writing posts and I'd love to share it with you, but it doesn't even sound like you have the time of day to listen because you're too angry calling out Brian for trying to soften your tone. That's too bad because I do like sharing.

And you can yell at me for my tone if you want. I really don't mind.

For others who are interested, I really did make an HTML module from the website above, but I do not yet have permission to share the file. If CCEL does give permission, you will soon find the module available on the BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/). It only contains Word Pictures vols 1-4 because, despite being very old, vols 5 and 6 still seem to be copyright protected. Olive Tree seems to realize this too as they only sell vols 1-4 (http://www.olivetree.com/store/product.php?productid=17006). [UPDATE: CCEL did not give permission.]

FredGreco
07-06-2011, 12:06 AM
Hi Johns,

I don't want to get involved in a long dispute about the various issues that you brought up, but from my perspective as the owner of BibleWorks, I think you are being very unfair. Every one of your complaints has a reasonable answer, which we would gladly have given if you had asked.

To begin with, the items which we have removed were removed for two reasons. In a few cases the royalties were raised several hundred percent and we had to remove the items or move them to modules. All of the other items were removed because there were copyright or licensing issues. The fact that many sites still have the full Robertson's Word Pictures has no bearing on our decision to remove it. There is a common belief that RWP is in the public domain. It is not and many sites display the text illegally. We try to obey the law. With respect to the removal of certain Bible versions, we have gone to great lengths to enable upgraders to keep the old versions, but most publishers require the removal of old versions when they produce a major update. Zondervan is no longer licensing the old NIV. Those few people still selling it are doing so under an old contract and when the contract expires, they will have to stop selling it. The same is true of the new NAB. I don't understand why you feel the need to attack us for complying with licensing requirements.

With regard to bloat, one reason for what you perceive as bloat is that we usually comply with users requests to keep old features around when we add new ones. And we don't add features haphazardly. In most cases new features and databases are added because users have requested them. I don't think there is any bloat in our new release. Every feature is there for a reason and every feature meets a need. You castigate us for removing things and then castigate us again for not removing things. To be honest I am not sure what we can do to make you happy. But we will keep trying.

Mike Bushell
BibleWorks

Mike,

This is a very reasonable and gracious reply. Licensing restrictions are certainly beyond your control, and Bibleworks has always done as much as it can to help users avoid loss.

johns
07-06-2011, 04:42 AM
Hi Johns,

I don't want to get involved in a long dispute about the various issues that you brought up, but from my perspective as the owner of BibleWorks, I think you are being very unfair. Every one of your complaints has a reasonable answer, which we would gladly have given if you had asked.


Sorry Mike if it appears that I just posted my complaints before asking. I did make an attempt to seek help here on this forum back when I was having difficulty installing Bibleworks 8 on a notebook computer. If you search you will find my posts, and you will not find any response. This is why I do not bring questions or seek help here on this forum. I tried, and didn't get any help in the past.



There is a common belief that RWP is in the public domain. It is not and many sites display the text illegally. We try to obey the law ... I don't understand why you feel the need to attack us for complying with licensing requirements.


I do not know the status of licensing and or copyright on Word Pictures, nor do I care. If the copyright holder wants me to pay extra to use it, I would gladly do so. I was not given that option on the Bibleworks platform.

I see numerous other works sold as modules at extra cost. Are you telling me that the copyright holders on this particular work refuse to allow this? I have Word Pictures in my Libronix/Logos library. It is also available for purchase on the Logos website. And interestingly enough, it is also available on the Wordsearch platform which BW now appears to have some sort of partnership with. Yet you maintain it cannot be licensed?



I don't think there is any bloat in our new release. Every feature is there for a reason and every feature meets a need.


The system requirements for BibleWorks 8 are:
- Minimum of 128 MB RAM
- Minimum of 700 MB hard drive space free (7 GB for full installation)

The system requirements for BibleWorks 9 are:
- Minimum 512 MB RAM
- Minimum of 1 GB hard drive space free (15 GB for full install)

Looks to me like the size of a full install just DOUBLED.

As I mentioned previously, and as I attempted to get help with here in the past, the monstrous size of the software would not be so bad if it were possible to install only the features that were desired by the end user. It used to be possible (version 7 and prior) to locate some of the large files on removable media or on different hard drives. It was easy to do by just editing an "INI" file. In version 8, weird things go on that are not documented. If you move a folder and edit the path in the INI file, the program rewrites the INI file at the next restart.

The online update facility is also broken for anyone who wants to do a partial install. There is no way in BW8 to recieve updates and/or patches for only the installed modules. To use the update facility, you are forced to constantly sort through resources in dozens of different languages. The only way to make them go away is to install them.

Was I supposed to humbly ask for help before complaining? If so I apologize. But when I humbly asked for help on here, nobody answered.

But I know I have your attention now, so please understand that not all of your users are PHD candidates that speak fluent Greek and Hebrew. Those users seem to be represented well here on this forum. But there are others using the program also (such as myself, and the original poster of this thread) who doesn't want to take up 15GB on their hard drive for the Bible software and a few study tools that they would CHOOSE to install.

Thanks for reading,
John

Michael Hanel
07-06-2011, 11:13 AM
Johns,

Unless you've used another alias on the Forums, you've only posted one other time here. You asked about installing BibleWorks 7 on a second drive because you were dealing with hard drive space. You expressed frustration there too that people weren't answering your question. I did chime in and said that you should probably direct your questions to BibleWorks directly. I don't know whether you did or not. The reason questions don't always get answered here is because people don't always know the answers and if they don't know them, they usually don't reply.

I hear you on the hard drive space issue. I have a laptop that's from 2007. That doesn't sound that old, but in computer years, that is. In order to install BibleWorks 9 on it, I had to go through and delete some programs I don't use any more. But it is possible to do an installation that is much smaller than the full 15 GB. The main "bloat" as you call it, is from high resolution images of the Greek manuscripts. If these images were not such high quality, people would complain. BibleWorks is going to offend someone no matter what they did, and I'm glad they chose this route. If the space is too big, you don't need to install the images. Or if you do install them, just delete them right away. It seems to me like you'd be missing out on a lot of good stuff, but if you're constrained by your hard drive space, well then that's that.

If you get annoyed by lists of updates in the BibleWorks updater that you don't like, you can have them removed from the list (without having to download them) by hiding them (someone asked about this and it was answered here (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?4631-Optional-Bibleworks-Updates&highlight=delete+updates).)

MGVH
07-06-2011, 01:25 PM
I personally did not find the installation process for BW9 to be too difficult or time consuming. There are quite a few English translations I don't bother with, and it's easy to un/check what you want. Other than Greek, Hebrew (and Syriac? I can't recall), none of the other foreign languages are installed by default.
As noted by Mike, the big space consumer in BW9 are the manuscripts. Those can easily not be installed with just a single click.
As you go through the custom installation process, you are provided with a running account of how much free space you have and how much will be required with the choices you have made.

Joan Korte
07-06-2011, 02:52 PM
As you go through the custom installation process, you are provided with a running account of how much free space you have and how much will be required with the choices you have made.

That is helpful information which does make the install custom, indeed.

madmagi
07-07-2011, 11:47 AM
First,

I love the upgrades you are doing to the product! I will not complain about getting more for my $.

I am disappointed at the NIV changes coming. While as a long time user I will be preserved, Nelson Publishing is missing the boat here. Many people still use the older NIV and in some groups they do not recognize the newer NIV as a good translation. So how can i do criticism between the old and the new as a new purchaser of bible study software - i cannot except by having the old one physically open. That is just a poor decision. (and i do realize it is most likely out of your hands).

I also would like to see the "Message" added to the available translations - again not because i believe it is a great translation or not; but because many are using it and having the ability to talk directly to those people is one thing that a great tool like Bibleworks enables.

Lester

Michael Hanel
07-07-2011, 11:52 AM
First,

I love the upgrades you are doing to the product! I will not complain about getting more for my $.

I am disappointed at the NIV changes coming. While as a long time user I will be preserved, Nelson Publishing is missing the boat here. Many people still use the older NIV and in some groups they do not recognize the newer NIV as a good translation. So how can i do criticism between the old and the new as a new purchaser of bible study software - i cannot except by having the old one physically open. That is just a poor decision. (and i do realize it is most likely out of your hands).



Lester,

Again to make it clear. If you are brand-new to BibleWorks, when you purchase BibleWorks 9, you will only get the NIV 2011. If you are upgrading to BibleWorks 9 from an older package, you will still get the old NIV in addition to the NIV 2011. [Reading again I see that you're saying you are a new user. Sorry if that's the case. I was confused]

I agree this kind of stinks, but if you want to voice your complaint, take it to Zondervan, the distributor of the NIV in America. BibleWorks can't change their policy because it's dictated by the license with Zondervan.

Eutychus
07-07-2011, 01:32 PM
Hello Johns,

Okay, I will attempt to answer your questions:


If, you are upgrading to version 9 you get to keep NIV 1984, and the TNIV. And, I believe this is do to much pleading and deal making on BWs part.
Check it out!
(link) (http://www.bibleworks.com/content/replaced.html)


Moving on to you 2nd comment/question...

Logos, and Accordance (the competition sort of) already have gone mobile. So, that's not much of a prediction. But, I'll give you credit for trying.

Okay, next question...


Nice, guess but the official response is...

(link) (http://kb.bibleworksllc.com/ikb/questions.php?questionid=11)
Now, for the final comment:

For statistical evidence of English interpretations(or translations) used by BibleWorks users check out the following polls: (poll one) (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?878-Bible-Versions-Poll-question-2&highlight=Bible+version+poll) and (poll two) (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?878-Bible-Versions-Poll-question-2&highlight=Bible+version+poll)

But, smile:) you can still "Focus on the text" and your loved translations, too as you get to keep them. But, please keep in mind the following words of truth...

"The real New testament is the Greek New Testament. The English is only a translation of the New testament, not the actual New Testament."
A. T. Robertson

"The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them."
Westminster Confession of Faith


Thou hast persuadeth me to be a BW 9 user!

Lee
07-07-2011, 01:36 PM
Lester,

If you want both the 1984 and 2011 editions of the NIV on BW, I assume you could purchase BW8 now ($349 from CBD (http://www.christianbook.com/bibleworks-8-0-on-rom/pd/82201X?item_code=WW&netp_id=633925&event=PSRC&view=details)), and then purchase the $20 upgrade to BW9 (http://store.bibleworks.com/fullversion.html). You would only be paying an additional $10 to get the 1984 NIV to go with all that comes with BW9.

madmagi
07-07-2011, 02:35 PM
I am a long time Bibleworks user and I know that I will get the unlock code as i have for the last few upgrades of other discontinued works.

My point is more of a stab at Zondervan and the other publishers. What if we couldn't read Textus Receptus because the Original King James shipped. What if we couldn't read OKJ when NKJ shipped? That is the point, that is plain and simply dumb in the world of textual studies.

Lester

jimofbentley
07-07-2011, 09:15 PM
I suppose that if people wanted a "simpler" version of BibleWorks, they could simply not load all of its features.

You could load what you like, and what you will use, and ignore the rest. It would take up less room on your hard drive. It would also make certain things easier to find (i.e. by not searching through 30 or so English versions for the "1" that you want).

But, you would also have all of the other features ready to load if/when you did want them.

bink
07-08-2011, 11:57 PM
If I ever need to modify it I can and will... otherwise, thanks for a ton of stuff for $359! Now can we get past the press junket and on with the v.9 "Release Party"?!!!

Michael Hanel
07-09-2011, 12:01 AM
If I ever need to modify it I can and will... otherwise, thanks for a ton of stuff for $359! Now can we get past the press junket and on with the v.9 "Release Party"?!!!

I've been having a part for two weeks, where have you been?? :cool: I think the BW people know our human nature well enough since they don't plan for these gaps between announcement and release. Isn't time supposed to go faster as you get older?

johns
07-09-2011, 04:44 AM
I suppose that if people wanted a "simpler" version of BibleWorks, they could simply not load all of its features.

You could load what you like, and what you will use, and ignore the rest. It would take up less room on your hard drive. It would also make certain things easier to find (i.e. by not searching through 30 or so English versions for the "1" that you want).

But, you would also have all of the other features ready to load if/when you did want them.

Not really. It is true that there is the ability to NOT install some of the unneeded features. But the MINIMUM disk space required has grown with each successive version, and is now up to 1GB.

The system requirements for BibleWorks 8 are:
- Minimum of 128 MB RAM
- Minimum of 700 MB hard drive space free (7 GB for full installation)

The system requirements for BibleWorks 9 are:
- Minimum 512 MB RAM
- Minimum of 1 GB hard drive space free (15 GB for full install)

For comparison, system requirements for the entire Windows XP operating system is only 1.5 GB.

As I posted previously, the ability to manage this huge footprint is broken. It is for all practical purposes impossible for someone who is not a computer tech to store the large portions of this data across different drives or devices.

For another comparison, the new Logos/Libronix software has the following space requirements:

-Christian Home Library: 385 MB
-Bible Study Library: 935 MB
-Leader's Library: 977 MB
-Original Languages Library: 1.15 GB
-Scholar's Library: 1.75 GB
-Scholar's Library: Silver: 2.45 GB
-Scholar's Library: Gold: 3 GB

The minimum requirements are drastically smaller (less than 1/2) than BW9 until you add large libraries of books and commentaries. Even the largest Libronix package is only 20% the size of a BW9 full install.

The great part about Libronix is that resource files can be located literally anywhere. You can keep frequently accessed files on the local hard drive, and less frequently used material on a USB drive, DVD drive, or network drive. Upon startup the program parses the locations that YOU specified. If they are not there, the program does not terminate with an error message (like BW8), it runs normally and searches whatever resources are available.

When I first purchased BW4, I loved it because it was smaller and faster than Libronix. Libronix was bloated. My how things have changed.

If my complaining here results in a better setup/configuration program, easier and better management of resources, everyone who uses Bibleworks will benefit. As the program grows larger and larger, it just makes sense to do it.

John

kennete
07-09-2011, 06:59 AM
The minimum requirements for running Logos 4 on a PC are:

Pentium 4 1 GHz (or AMD equivalent- 1.3 GHz or higher)
1 GB RAM (2GB for Windows 7 & Vista)
Windows XP SP3
DVD drive
12 GB hard drive space on local drive (May require additional space depending on your library).
1024X600 Display
256 MB DirectX 9 graphics device

Here are the download sizes for each of their collections:

Christian Home Library: 450 MB
Bible Study Library: 4.65 GB
Leader's Library: 4.68 GB
Original Languages Library: 3.81 GB
Scholar's Library: 6.06 GB
Scholar's Library: Silver: 6.60 GB
Scholar's Library: Gold: 6.97 GB
Scholar's Library: Platinum: 7.28 GB
Logos Bible Software 4: Portfolio Edition: 8.05 GB

http://www.logos.com/support/techfaq#size

bkMitchell
07-09-2011, 09:20 AM
When I first purchased BW4, I loved it because it was smaller and faster than Libronix. Libronix was bloated. My how things have changed.

:cool:BibleWorks is still faster than Libronix & Logos4.

I own a license for Libronix/SESB and while I enjoy the syntactical databases and access to the Massorah Gedolah executing queries often takes time, and occasional freezes libronix. I tried upgrading to Logos4, but it has takes up far more RAM than BibleWorks does and L4 slows my PC down. So, yeah BibleWorks takes up more space, but Logos takes up more memory, and time.

bobvenem
07-09-2011, 09:48 AM
Why does my BW8 folder (in the Program Files (x86) directory) contain 8.53GB worth of material, while my Libronix DLS folder (in the same directory, apparently for both Logos 3 and Logos 4) contains only 2.26GB, yet BW8 is so much faster?

Anyone? Bueller?

Michael Hanel
07-09-2011, 11:26 AM
What I find amazing Johns is how you can already have a review for BibleWorks 9 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/BibleWorks-BW700-1-9/product-reviews/B000EGHMKG/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#ROLDV4VT6CJI0) when you haven't even used it and (apparently?) have no intention of buying it. What I find more amazing is you don't like BibleWorks (apparently?) because they had to take out Robertson's Word Pictures, but you have no problem that the latest version of the other software removed a lot of features and over a year after its latest release still hasn't added them back on.

In terms of space goes, hard drive space has never been cheaper and even on laptops, it's not too difficult to install a new hard drive. A year and a half ago when I bought my new computer a 1 TB hard drive cost $100. By now I'm sure it's closer to 50 or $60. In that light comparing 700MB to 1GB is practically meaningless.

bkMitchell
07-09-2011, 01:32 PM
Hello Eutychus!



Thou hast persuadeth me to be a BW 9 user!


:Dhappy, to hear that! Bible is the best choice!
However, anyone who is serious about Sola Scriptura, Ad Fontes. and exegesis will probably be interested in BibleWorks. So, I am betting that you probably already were interested in BibleWorks 9 and did not know it.



Hello Johns,

... features that I used are being taken OUT! My favorite resource, A.T. Robertsons Word Pictures was removed

Well, then I recommend you try Gramcord (http://www.gramcord.org/index.htm) for windows because (1) it has A.T. Robetsons' word Pictures and (2) It offers much smaller software base packages(The Bonus Package has the 1984 NIV) or you can have it added to any package on the other hand:

If you think Bibleworks looks old you will feel more so about Gramcord because they have not updated their GUI since 1995. And, you will miss out a better and bigger variety of Greek texts as well as English translations.

While Gramcord was the best, BibleWorks is the best especially when it comes to database fidelity, Search Engine capabilities and other exegetical tools. If you can find an error in any one of BWs' text great it will probable be fixed with in the same day you send in the error report. Sometimes with in 30minutes.

However, if I were you I would take up Micheal Handel's offer on creating an HTML user database of the desired works.

Lee
07-09-2011, 01:55 PM
It is laughable to claim BW is bloated and Logos/Libronix is not. Really, John, your posts portray you as someone who could not possibly be happy whatever BW does.

MBushell
07-09-2011, 02:05 PM
Johns,

FYI Glenn just did a custom install of Bible Works 9 on an XP machine with 128 megs of RAM. The space taken on disk was 768 megabytes. The published specs for Logos 4 are 6 gigabytes minimum. Most of the increase in BibleWorks 9 is from the manuscript images, which are optional.

Mike

Joan Korte
07-09-2011, 02:23 PM
Why does my BW8 folder (in the Program Files (x86) directory) contain 8.53GB worth of material, while my Libronix DLS folder (in the same directory, apparently for both Logos 3 and Logos 4) contains only 2.26GB, yet BW8 is so much faster?

Anyone? Bueller?

The Logos 4 folder is not in your Program Files folder as is your Resources folder for Logos 3 (Libronix DLS). The default path for Logos 4 is C:\Documents and Settings\*your name*\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos 4. I think if you check your installation, you will find that Logos 4 folder to be very large. Mine is 16 Gig. Hope this helps.

bobvenem
07-09-2011, 02:36 PM
The Logos 4 folder is not in your Program Files folder as is your Resources folder for Logos 3 (Libronix DLS). The default path for Logos 4 is C:\Documents and Settings\*your name*\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos 4. I think if you check your installation, you will find that Logos 4 folder to be very large. Mine is 16 Gig. Hope this helps.

Right, 6.24GB in the AppData folder (Windows 7). Thanks.

My point: "bloat," as Johns calls it, is not an indicator of performance.

MBushell
07-09-2011, 02:38 PM
It is laughable to claim BW is bloated and Logos/Libronix is not. Really, John, your posts portray you as someone who could not possibly be happy whatever BW does.

Glenn just did a minimal install of BibleWorks 9 on an XP machine with 128 megs of RAM. The footprint was 768 megs. Our published minimums are suggestions, not hard requirements. This is true of all published machine requirements. BibleWorks 9 still runs very fast on a small XP machine. I do not think that can be said of the package favored by Johns.

I honestly do not understand where Johns is coming from. He seems to want to hurt the company, not to help anyone make a good purchasing decision or become better informed. I do not know what his motives are, but the Lord knows.

We have gone to very great pains to give our users as much useful information as we can in the base package and still hold the cost of the base package down to a minimum. We have removed nothing that we were not required to remove by copyright holders. All the "bloat" is optional and we haven't increased the cost of the base package to compensate for our costs, which in the case of the manuscript project are astronomical. BibleWorks is still the best value of any high-end Bible software package available. It is also the fastest and most customizable package available. We stand behind that assertion with a 30 day no-hassle return policy.

To new and prospective users I would encourage you to take Johns' rants with a grain of salt. He posted a very negative review on Amazon without purchasing or ever having used the product. That tells you everything you need to know about his opinions.

Try BibleWorks for yourself and if you don't like what you see, send it back. I think you will find that the "bloat" is really a gold mine of useful tools and information. In spite of a very liberal return policy we have very few returns.

God bless,
Mike Bushell
BibleWorks

Adelphos
07-09-2011, 03:02 PM
You wanna talk about bloat...

The Bible started with five books, known as the Torah. Then they went and added a whole bunch of other books to to it. After the Messiah came, he even instructed that MORE books be added, so that now we're all the way to 66.

Sheesh!

Ne'er was bloat so glorious!

I think it just happens to be one of those laws that when you improve something, bloat just naturally comes with it.

Kinda like the Crown of Life, as just one example, that will bloat the height and accoutrement of he who is given it.

Adelphos
07-09-2011, 03:16 PM
I might also add, that disk space is so absurdly, ridiculously cheap, and so massive in quantity, that it really is a complete non-issue for anybody with a relatively modern computer. I have a laptop and passport USB connection that gives me almost 2 TB of disk space. I don't even bother clearing out old files anymore because I haven't even used 1/8th of my capacity, and that is will FULL INSTALLS on EVERYTHING.

So I think the disk space argument is a canard. If you can't afford a new comuter, you can certainly get a TB of disk space with a USB connection for less than $100, or thereabouts.

And less I be accused of being a shill for BW, the fact, I have no intention of upgrading to BW9. Don't get me wrong; I think it is an absolute masterpiece of programming and conception, but there is nothing in BW I want or need. The manuscript issue is completely settled for me, and so BW 9's big draw is not a draw for me at all. I am, however, amazed at the skilll level of programming that when into it.

But no, I am not a shill for BW. I'll probably wait for 10 unless some major, serious deal comes my way for 9, but the arguments put forward against BW9 are just plain bogus and bestupid.

ISalzman
07-09-2011, 03:42 PM
What I find amazing Johns is how you can already have a review for BibleWorks 9 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/BibleWorks-BW700-1-9/product-reviews/B000EGHMKG/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#ROLDV4VT6CJI0) when you haven't even used it and (apparently?) have no intention of buying it.

Wow, I am in disbelief. I clicked on your link to Amazon, Michael. This is a post from someone who has an obvious axe to grind. I am completely incredulous that someone would go to such pain to bash a product they've never tried, nor intend to try. To top it off, it is a fantastic product at that! The single best bible software available. It's upsetting to read an e-mail like that because of how much we all appreciate BibleWorks and its incredible staff. They nor the product deserve such false slander.

johns
07-09-2011, 07:23 PM
What I find amazing Johns is how you can already have a review for BibleWorks 9 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/BibleWorks-BW700-1-9/product-reviews/B000EGHMKG/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#ROLDV4VT6CJI0) when you haven't even used it and (apparently?) have no intention of buying it. What I find more amazing is you don't like BibleWorks (apparently?) because they had to take out Robertson's Word Pictures, but you have no problem that the latest version of the other software removed a lot of features and over a year after its latest release still hasn't added them back on.

In terms of space goes, hard drive space has never been cheaper and even on laptops, it's not too difficult to install a new hard drive. A year and a half ago when I bought my new computer a 1 TB hard drive cost $100. By now I'm sure it's closer to 50 or $60. In that light comparing 700MB to 1GB is practically meaningless.

I know that there are individuals (like yourself) who take it personally whenever criticism is offered up. But please lets just stick with the issues and refrain from attacking the messenger.

First, I have never said that I do not like Bibleworks. And I would not waste my time looking at BW9 and discussing it here if I had no plans to continue using it. As though that would make any difference. And apparently you want to discuss my use of "the other" software too? Unbelievable really. For anyone who cares, Yes I still have Libronix. No I have not upgraded to Logos 4.

I have not yet decided whether to upgrade to Logos 4. Nor have I finished evaluating BW9. Am I to be criticised for this? Am I not allowed to weigh the benefits of upgrading against the problems? I guess you must not think so.

Libronix is well designed, in the sense that resources are separate from the program. It is a true library system. If I upgrade to a new version of Logos/Libronix, the software can still read all of my old resource files. I still have some of them in the old Logos 2 format. The publishers and Libronix abandoned them, but I can STILL USE THEM. I bought and paid for a license over 20 years ago, and I still have the legal right to use that resource.

I have the 1984 NIV in my Libronix library. It will never be removed. Just as if I had purchased it in print and still had it on my bookshelf. Same with A.T. Robersons Word Pictures, and every other resource.

Not so with Bibleworks. Even though Bibleworks stores its resources in separate files, many of those resources are "necessary" for the program operation. When you install a new version of Biblworks, you do not keep your old resource files, you install all new ones. They are not separate from the program itself.

In the beginning, this strategy worked great. The program was lean and mean. I loved it for that reason. But now the program is attempting to do what Libronix does in addition to what it has always done well. In addition to just Bibles in different languages and some language tools, being added are commentaries, encyclopedias, and books. In addition, the program is attempting to become a library system that can read Wordsearch resources.

On the issue of hard drive space, I partly agree with you. Up to the point where you argue that 300MB is meaningless. You are correct that hard drives and removable media are bigger and cheaper than ever. But my complaint was not just about the size, but also about the managability. You didn't bother to touch on that issue. Why?

If I was able to move the large data files to a secondary drive, I would be very happy with Bibleworks. Maybe you can tell me how to do this rather than making ad hominem attacks here?

Here is what I currently have installed:
==================================
C:\Program Files (x86)\Bibleworks 8\mapdata 2.3 GB
C:\Program Files (x86)\Bibleworks 8\databases 1.1 GB
C:\Program Files (x86)\Bibleworks 8\videos 380 MB
==================================
Total = 3.8 GB

If I could relocate just these three folders to drive D: where all my other data is stored, it would make a huge difference. It would allow the lightning fast performance of all programs on the system drive by installing on an SSD. As you know, cost is prohibitive on SSD's, but a typical Windows 7 installation with lots of extra software can be installed on an 80GB SSD. I can install Libronix on such a system. But I cannot fit Bibleworks 8 (much less 9) unless it is possible to move some of this data to another storage medium.

On my system, I have a second hard drive where all my Libronix resources and other data are stored. If i could relocate just the 3 folders mentioned above to that drive, then when I did a drive image backup of the entire system drive the backup file size would be almost 4 GB smaller. That is a huge difference, espcially if you keep a history of backup files.

Is relocating this data too much to ask? I think not. Do you know how to do this? Does the installation program give you this option when you install the program?

Making this possible (and easy) would benefit ALL Bibleworks users. Imagine the performance increase you would get with BW9 and your most frequently used resources running on an SSD drive, and the less frequently used resources on a secondary or external drive. Even performance on a small notebook computer could be near instant this way. But currently it is not possible to do this based on the feedback I have gotten on this forum when I attempted to do it.

(I did manage to do it, but only by using NTFS symbolic links ... and these cannot be used on portable media so would not work on a laptop/notebook)

So Micheal, do you have solutions or answers? Or will you continue pretending there is no problem and attacking the messenger?

johns
07-09-2011, 07:39 PM
Johns,

FYI Glenn just did a custom install of Bible Works 9 on an XP machine with 128 megs of RAM. The space taken on disk was 768 megabytes. The published specs for Logos 4 are 6 gigabytes minimum. Most of the increase in BibleWorks 9 is from the manuscript images, which are optional.

Mike

Thanks for the information Mike.

The system requirements I posted however, came from the Bibleworks website.
http://www.bibleworks.com/content/sys-req.html

It is nice to know that the requirements being posted are conservative.

I don't know who Glenn is, but ask him if he can do another custom install:

- Notebook computer running Windows 7
- 8 GB RAM
- System drive (C:\) is an 80 GB SSD drive with 200 MB free
- BW9 program minimal install on system drive
- A few favorite resources also installed on SSD drive
10 English Bibles randomly chosen
3 Greek Bibles randomly chosen
- Complete installation of ALL remaining resources (full install) on an external USB drive
- Program can operate with or without external drive

If you can make this happen, I will definitely upgrade to BW9 :)

Thanks,
John

johns
07-09-2011, 07:49 PM
To new and prospective users I would encourage you to take Johns' rants with a grain of salt. He posted a very negative review on Amazon without purchasing or ever having used the product. That tells you everything you need to know about his opinions.
God bless,
Mike Bushell
BibleWorks

Mike, if you read my review on Amazon, then you know that I have purchased and used Bibleworks since version 4, and I have paid for each upgrade through version 8.

Your statement that I have not purchased or used the product is not truthful, and dismissal of legitemate complaints about the product as "rants" will do nothing to make Bibleworks a better program. If you take my complaints seriously and address them, Bibleworks can be an even better program than what it is.

John

bink
07-09-2011, 09:07 PM
[QUOTE=bkMitchell;25471]

:cool:BibleWorks is still faster than Libronix & Logos4.

"slows my PC down...takes up more memory, and time"

I tried L4 Platinum for 30 days last fall, loved it's features and resources, (hard not to) but know how incredibly slower my PC became and of the numerous freezes. Once the 30 day courtship was over I sent it back and, this spring, comes the pleasant surprise of new WORDSearch modules, like the $99 bundle they offered and surely more to come, which has caused me to not look back. Cha-pow, cha-pow, off like Lightning McQueen! :D

bkMitchell
07-09-2011, 09:28 PM
Now, not only is BibleWorks under attack, but also the forum and it's users as well.


I expected that there would be reviewers responding to "defend" Bibleworks. The difference between myself and them is that while I use and appreciate the program, I am also willing to acknowledge that it is not perfect. Like any computer software, it has strengths and weaknesses. Those that pretend that a computer program is absolutely perfect, has no flaws, and that there is no room for constructive criticism are not objective reviewers, they have too much emotional investment into the software to remain objective and are essentially worshipping a computer program. It would be like asking a muslim to review the Koran. Not only must he say only good things, but is obligated to attack anyone who might say something negative. You will get similar responses if you go to the Bibleworks forums and ask for help. (Link)
(http://www.amazon.com/review/ROLDV4VT6CJI0/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000EGHMKG&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful)
What about Michael Handel? Did he not try to help you?
There is no 'Perfect' without respect to person, place, or time.
Of course you can visit the 'perfectly' peaceful Logos forums! Yes, I sure the users on those forums will never attack anyone:rolleyes: but don't take my word for it.

Anyway...
BibleWorks was designed with exegesis in mind. Any, changes and upgrades usually reflect the desire and goal to make it a better tool for the goal of Textual Analysis. The vast majority of user on these forums are probably interested in the tasks mentioned above. If, you are not interested in those task you will probably not appericate BW's direction. I continue to invest in BibleWorks because it meets my goals in ways the other programs never will. However, I also acknowledge that BibleWorks does not meet everyone's goals.

On, the other hand I doubt you came here for help In your own words,
If my complaining here results in a better setup/configuration program, easier and better management of resources, everyone who uses Bibleworks will benefit. As the program grows larger and larger, it just makes sense to do it.
Not! I like BibleWorks as it, but the improvements I might desire would be consider bloat by you, and those who desire I might not value.



Now, one of your complaints was that you have to buy resources you already purchased. Does, this same situation not also happen with MS Windows? I had Windows Xp but then I upgraded to Windows 7 and in doing so I repaid for tools and services I already had in XP! If you own MS Office 2007 and then you upgrade to version 10 once again you end up paying for Word, Excel, and PowerPoint again.

In my experience( this only me though it may not be true for you) upgrading to Windows or to Word was far more expensive than upgrading to BibleWorks. And, I there are features in Windows I will probably never use.

johns
07-09-2011, 10:30 PM
Now, one of your complaints was that you have to buy resources you already purchased.

Were you addressing me here? I don't recall ever complaining about having to re-purchase anything. I have never complained about the price of Bibleworks. Purchase or upgrades. Obviously accuracy is not a primary concern here, is it?

But since you brought up the issue of resources I do believe however, that once an electronic resource is purchased, the purchaser should then own an ongoing right to use that copyrighted work. Obviously someone at Bibleworks agrees with me or they would not be giving access codes to upgraders for works no longer available to purchasers.

We purchase and own books. We generally license software. A license is usually good for a particular version of software.

A Bible resource (electronic or printed) however, does not become obsolete at the point in time that a "reader" program is updated. It is still useful as long as the purchaser still desires to use it.

With the Logos/Libronix model, the program is separate from the resources. Your license to use the resources never expires when a new "reader" program comes out.

With Bibleworks, the line separating Program and Resources is fuzzy. This is why there is always confusion when a new Bibleworks version comes out. Some modules go from "included" to "extra-cost". And vice versa. Along with the list of new features is also a list of those being removed.

With Libronix, if you purchased the resource file, you own it. An upgrade of the software does not change your legal standing, or your technical ability to use it. And it does not need to be reinstalled. The same file can be read by the new program. If and when updates to resources become available, YOU decide whether to upgrade them or not. If you choose not to upgrade, you can still continue to use the old one.

I am sure this was by design. The design goals were different in the beginning. Libronix was designed to be a Library system. Bibleworks was designed to be an exegetical program. This is neither good nor bad. Each approach has advantages and disadvantages.

The Libronix model however is superior if the goal is to maintain and work with large and ever increasing libraries of books and resources. Originally Bibleworks did not have the same goals. But it seems to be heading the same direction regardless. With the inclusion of Wordsearch titles, Bibleworks is becoming more than an exegetical program, it is becoming a hybrid that tries to do both.

Libronix is a library system that is attempting to do exegetical work, but isn't very good at it. And Bibleworks is an exegetical program which at one time was proud of the fact that it was *only* an exegetical program. Official advice was to purchase commentaries and other works in printed form. I have not looked recently, is that still on the website somewhere? But now Bibleworks is attempting to become a library system too. I can't think of any plainer way to say it.

I am not complaining either. If Bibleworks can successfully do both, GREAT! One of the new features of BW9 that I am really liking is the integrated ESV study Bible. It would be worth the upgrade for me just for that one feature alone. My complaint is that as the program grows, it needs to become more flexible in its installation process. It is large enough now that simply being able to turn on or off resources for installation is not enough.

Custom install needs the ability to choose not just WHAT to install, but WHERE to install it. I cannot think of any more straightforward way to say it than this.

Some may have misunderstood my posts regarding Libronix as comparing the two programs against each other. That was not my intent. I recognize that the two programs had different design goals, and that both are superior at their intended purpose. My intent originally was only to point out the difference in the disk space requirements, nothing more. I have both programs and I see value in both programs for their intended purposes.

But my primary concern is STILL, and has not changed, the fact that Program and Resources are separate in Libronix, and Resources can be easily relocated. Bibleworks installation program is only capable of installing everything into one location.

John

MBushell
07-09-2011, 11:00 PM
Just to be clear, when someone purchases an upgrade, they are not repaying for databases that were in the previous version. They are paying for new database development and program development. Otherwise the upgrade price would be the full purchase price. This is why we permit uses to carry over databases from the old version that have been removed in the new because of licensing issues or publisher requirements.

Our model has its advantages and disadvantages. We try to provide in a single package all the major tools that people need to study the text of Scripture in the original languages. We have tried to avoid fragmenting the program into modules and special editions because we wanted every user to be able to afford every major piece of the tool set. If we started selling the program in pieces the price would skyrocket for people who want all the pieces. If people want and can afford a large elctronic library they have other options. But few people can afford that. We wanted to do something that was complete, comprehensive and up-to-date and at an affordable price. This works for a lot of people. It clearly doesn't work for Johns, but from what he has said, the program was not a very good fit for him anyway. It is just sad that he feels compelled to attack a program that excels in all the areas that interest him the least (original language study).

I am going to close this thread if I can figure out how. I don't normally mess much with the forum so I am a little out of my comfort zone.

Everyone have a blessed Lord's Day.

Mike

MBushell
07-09-2011, 11:03 PM
If I did it right.
Mike