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dalemac
05-21-2011, 07:06 PM
Methods the devil uses to destroy Morality:

1) One of the biggest and most effective corruptions of the US has to be rock-n-roll music that has permeated our society, every other form of music, and now even the churches (of all things!). It has inspired much crime, murders, sin, rebellion, treason, drugs, fornication, suicide, and forsaking God to serve the devil and his demons; and yet the nation loves it (and all of the above has been carefully documented)! How in the world can a believer (who calls himself a Christian) take Christian lyrics and add Rock-N-roll music (which is of the devil) and then pretend he is worshipping and glorifying the Lord? Yes, God shows mercy and grace when his people shame and blaspheme his name in this way, but He is calling all true born-again saints in these last days to repent and come out of the world and be separate! God’s music comes from the Spirit, from those zealously waiting upon and seeking God. God gives them new fresh songs from the Spirit of God that glorify him, not the devil or man’s flesh!

2) Another very effective tool is to load the nation with heathenism through massive legal immigration in order to destroy True Christianity of our forefathers as well as load the nation with a heavy economic burden, unfairness, hate, crime, Socialism, and disease of illegals and make our borders unsafe for the smuggling of terrorists and nuclear and plague devices. Our leaders our flooding our nation with a tidal wave of legal immigrants who they grant citizenship after they brainwash them with a socialistic interpretation of the constitution and without requiring them to adopt to our American culture, customs, religion , or American ways. The founding immigrants would roll over in their graves if they saw the caliper of immigrants today! Nor would they be so foolish to give their country away to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that crosses their boarders! They had enough sense to know that enough is enough and that you have to cut off immigration at a certain point and preserve your country for you children and children’s children and not give it away to those who refuse to be one with you. No nation in the world floods their country with immigrants, especially if they do not adopt their religion, culture, or customs, attitudes, and way of life. That would be suicide as they would become powerful enough to change their customs, religion, and way of life - the very thing that is happening to America right now! But God will turn this into another triumph for many of them will get saved and come into the Christianity as God rises up in the Lord’s day and reaps a huge harvest of souls through his man child ministers.

3) And another effective tool to destroy this country and morality has to be the barrage of hate, violence, immorality, fighting, lies, socialism, liberalism, fantasy, etc. seen on TV, the news, and movies. Keep America from reading and continually educating itself and lull them to sleep with TV, movies, and sports so they don’t even know what is going on in their own country and don’t even care! Keep them from church and glued to the TV and let them sleep on as their nation is taken over from within till they wake up and find they lost their nation to some form of a New World Order under the dictates of the UN with some one world ruler in charge, having lost all their economic, political, and religious freedoms.

God is NOT moving in American like he is moving in other countries were miracles are happening – healing, miracle provisions, deliverances, and even raising saints form the dead! Yes, this is happening world wide were there is severe persecution of the saints; get ready for persecution is coming in a furry to America! God wants to wake up His sleepy and dying church and bring revival to America! God wants to perfect his church in these last days and will use the harshness of world government to motivate us to really seek him, pray, repent, love Him, Jesus Christ, one another, and move out for God, and open up to Bible truth like never before? The Nation will surely fall as we know it, and we shall live under scarily difficult and perilous times under a world government. But those who seek God and cry out to him, God will rescue and bring together and move upon them to win the world for Christ; and we shall bring a death blow to the 7th head world government and reap a mighty harvest for Christ. Get prepared, study hard, and most of all, repent, pray, and seek God.

Dalemac

Soxfan23
05-21-2011, 09:23 PM
This reeks of fundamentalism combined with a large dose of right-wing civil religion. If you're going to make such bizarre claims at least use correct grammar and spelling. Doesn't the recent embarrassment of one of your ilk (i.e. Harold Camping) at least give you pause before you start making such looney claims?

bobvenem
05-22-2011, 08:58 AM
This wreaks of fundamentalism combined with a large dose of right-wing civil religion. If you're going to make such bizarre claims at least use correct grammar and spelling. Doesn't the recent embarrassment of one of your ilk (i.e. Harold Camping) at least give you pause before you start making such looney claims?

Um...I think you meant "reeks."

jimofbentley
05-22-2011, 09:51 AM
Um...I think you meant "reeks."

Maybe Soxfan was too busy watching the Cubs score eight runs in the 8th to defeat the Sox. :D

dalemac
05-22-2011, 10:19 AM
This wreaks of fundamentalism combined with a large dose of right-wing civil religion. If you're going to make such bizarre claims at least use correct grammar and spelling. Doesn't the recent embarrassment of one of your ilk (i.e. Harold Camping) at least give you pause before you start making such looney claims?

United States is in the same place Judah was in just about before she went into captivity and yet despite all the warnings of Godís prophets and leaders, the people refused to believe till it was too late. God has warned US over and over again through his ministers that Judgment is coming to America. God has even made it plain by clearly exposing a world government conspiracy through many men such as US Admirables, Garry Allen, Ron Paul, and many, many, others and a host of Conservative sights on the internet, books, magazines, and articles that even a person with perfect grammar and spelling should clearly know! Are not the constant hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, floods, droughts, high gas and food prices, loss of jobs, uncontrolled immigration and illegals, bad government, wars, and so forth a strong indication of the Judgment of God upon America? Judgment shall begin at the house of God. Godís church is fragmented, worldly, sleepy, and has not done the work God has given it to do: to win the lost and bring revival to the nation. Instead the world has converted the church to heathenism, sin, and rebellion. A demon spoke through a young girl who was in a deliverance session and said: my music (the Devilís music) shall be in the churches and this has come to pass! The churches are playing the devils music to Christian lyrics. God will use World government and the economic chaos just up ahead to get his church where they should be: humble, seeking him in prayer, and willing to obey and follow truth. God will allow his people to suffer along with the wicked but the willing will repent, seek God, and open up to the truth and the Spirit of God and God will take care of his people in the ďDay of his willing people.Ē God will rise up in the Lordís day, the Latter rain, the Feast of Tabernacles, the end time revival and the willing will be a part of the largest world wide revival ever and Godís church will be restored to its former glory and beyond, and we shall reap a mighty harvest of souls for Jesus Christ and come into true unity of the Faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, perfect and mature, a bride without spot or wrinkle, ready to be raptured to Heaven. Yet many Christian will fight this move and reject it and loose out because it didnít start in their church or agree to their theology, traditions, and so forth. I plan to join this new move and be all that God wants and intended me to be!

Dalemac

bkMitchell
05-23-2011, 01:38 AM
Are not the constant hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, floods, droughts, high gas and food prices, loss of jobs, uncontrolled immigration and illegals, bad government, wars, and so forth a strong indication of the Judgment of God upon America?

Were, the trails that Job endured evidence of God's judgement upon him? Did, God congratulate Job's friends for their condemnation of Job?

Again, in the New Testament the disciples question Jesus "who did sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? (Joh 9:2) And, Jesus responded, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (Joh 9:3)

Verily, verily, I say unto you: trials, and hardships are not always evidence of punishment or divine wrath!

dalemac
05-23-2011, 02:03 AM
Were, the trails that Job endured evidence of God's judgement upon him? Did, God congratulate Job's friends for their condemnation him?

Again, in the New Testament the disciples question Jesus "who did sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? (Joh 9:2) And, Jesus responded, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (Joh 9:3)

Verily, verily, I say unto you: trials, and hardships are not always evidence of punishment or divine wrath!

I think you’re comparing Apples to oranges. There is no comparison here. Of course God tries his people and trials and tribulation are not necessary indication of God’s judgment but God indeed also judges a nation for sin and his people when they refuse to walk with him. Look at the History of Israel in the OT, when they walked with God, God blessed them but when they rebelled, he judged them and often severely. In a nation that is trying to get rid of any outward signs of Christianity, that is promoting homosexuality, uncontrolled abortion, that is promoting illicit sex, drugs, and rebellion against authority; and in a nation where many (if not most) of the churches are sleepy, carnal, and full of secret sin, I hardly can believe this is God’s testing upon the nation like with Job or for the glory of God like in John 9:2! God wasn’t judging Job but testing his faith. How in the world in a nation full of sin can all these disasters be a test of God and not his judgment? This makes no sense!

US has forsaken God and the churches are not were they are suppose to be and God is not pleased. Isreal got into a place where God divorced them and said he hated them because of their rebellion. God can not allow his sleepy church go on they way they are if he wants to win the lost. Judgment must begin at the house of God so we will repent and be what God intended us to be. Then we can go forth and win the lost. World government and the harshness of persecution is what God is going to use to get us to repent!

Dalemac

SCSaunders
05-23-2011, 08:15 AM
This is not SCSaunders. He got raptured yesterday. True: he was in the very last group, not the curve-wreckers of the 6:00 PM sharp group. But before the Lord called his name, he said I could have his BW Forum login.

If I was SCSaunders, I couldn't let a comment like.....

.... How in the world can a believer (who calls himself a Christian) take Christian lyrics and add Rock-N-roll music (which is of the devil) and then pretend he is worshipping and glorifying the Lord? .... Dalemac.... not be followed with a non sequitur graphic like.....870

Now to go tinkle the ivories to a solemn and respectful poco retardando metronome beat as I sing, "SCS, it's good the Lord took you away from here."

Soxfan23
05-23-2011, 09:23 PM
The United States is not the modern-day equivalent of OT Israel. Judgment beginning at the "house of God" does not mean it will begin in the US because the US is no more the "house of God" than any other nation. The US is something altogether different from the "church," yet you seem to suggest they are synonymous. Your post is filled with moot points and ethnocentric pride. Please stop making such absurd fundamentalist claims and read a book about hermeneutics & the nature of prophecy. I'm afraid you're an example of dispensationalism gone awry, a person making false prophecies that should be thankful we're living under the New Covenant. You're not doing Christianity any good by making such statements because they're false and make us look like a bunch of lunatics.

I'm off to listen to some Christian rock & get an illegal immigrant to mow my lawn :D

dalemac
05-24-2011, 12:25 PM
The United States is not the modern-day equivalent of OT Israel. Judgment beginning at the "house of God" does not mean it will begin in the US because the US is no more the "house of God" than any other nation. The US is something altogether different from the "church," yet you seem to suggest they are synonymous. Your post is filled with moot points and ethnocentric pride. Please stop making such absurd fundamentalist claims and read a book about hermeneutics & the nature of prophecy. I'm afraid you're an example of dispensationalism gone awry, a person making false prophecies that should be thankful we're living under the New Covenant. You're not doing Christianity any good by making such statements because they're false and make us look like a bunch of lunatics.

I'm off to listen to some Christian rock & get an illegal immigrant to mow my lawn :D

1) Iím not saying the US is a modern-day equivalent to OT Isreal (it isnít), never-the-less, the parallel are there and US is in the same position Judah was just before they went into captivity.

2) I did not say the US was the house of God, only judgment will begin at the house of God. That is, Judgment will come to America for its sins and wickedness but the true church of Jesus Christ shall not escape punishment for they too are not where God intended them to be. Many are worldly, carnal, and are very sleepy. They are not in the place God has called them to be so judgment will begin at the house of God. Only a few churches are really seeking and moving out for God.

3) As far as the correct interpretation of prophesy: I wouldnít trust many of the books by the so-called scholars who are ignorant of Bible interpretation. God has made many a wonderful promise to believers such as coming into the unity of the faith, becoming mature ad completed, coming into the full experiential knowledge of the son of God, and being made ready as a bride adorn for Jesus so Jesus will come to rapture them home. Iím not the only one who believes these marvelous truths for there are others through out US and the world who say the same. You do not have to believe them or feel bad about it for they are truths for those who believe them and enter into them not for those who decide them are not true and not for them.

4) Besides, is not this a forum? Can not one talk about what he clearly sees as Bible truth or does he have to follow old denominational traditional of the so-called established doctrines?

Dalemac

bkMitchell
05-24-2011, 08:00 PM
Besides, is not this a forum? Can not one talk about what he clearly sees as Bible truth or does he have to follow old denominational traditional of the so-called established doctrines?

Sure, of course you can but please keep in mind....

BibleWorks(software) and these forums are used by a very board range of users. There are Jewish users, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptist, pentecostal, non-denominational users, church of Christ, and the list goes on.
There is no one denominational tradition represented here nor are there an so called established doctrines represented here!

As, you can imagine, not everyone here shares the same canon of scripture!
Notice:

The Jewish Bible has 24 books
The Orthodox Church has 76 books
Catholic (and Anglican) Bibles have 73 books
Mainline Protestant Bibles have 66 books

So, when you say "the Bible" it is better if you clearly define which canon you are talking about? Which Bible or Holy Scriptures do you accept? And, there is no such thing as "Biblical Truth" without regard to canon, and ecclesiastic heritage.

Most, here I would imagine use BibleWorks(software) for the task of exegesis of the original text but of course we all redact and apply that text (Or whatever Canon we hold to) differently.

I still do not yet understand which hermeneutic or method you use to interpret scripture? And, as mentioned above, which canon of scripture and community of faith you are from?

dalemac
05-25-2011, 01:48 AM
Sure, of course you can but please keep in mind....

BibleWorks(software) and these forums are used by a very board range of users. There are Jewish users, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptist, pentecostal, non-denominational users, church of Christ, and the list goes on.
There is no one denominational tradition represented here nor are there an so called established doctrines represented here!

As, you can imagine, not everyone here shares the same canon of scripture!
Notice:

The Jewish Bible has 24 books
The Orthodox Church has 76 books
Catholic (and Anglican) Bibles have 73 books
Mainline Protestant Bibles have 66 books

So, when you say "the Bible" it is better if you clearly define which canon you are talking about? Which Bible or Holy Scriptures do you accept? And, there is no such thing as "Biblical Truth" without regard to canon, and ecclesiastic heritage.

Most, here I would imagine use BibleWorks(software) for the task of exegesis of the original text but of course we all redact and apply that text (Or whatever Canon we hold to) differently.

I still do not yet understand which hermeneutic or method you use to interpret scripture? And, as mentioned above, which canon of scripture and community of faith you are from?






Thank you, but I perceive that this is not the place to debate and share with others the wonderful truths I have experienced from the word of God (the cannon of the 39 OT books of Masoretic text and the 27 books of the original Greek NT (NESTLES, UBS, etc). I have not gotten a single response of like kind or wanting to know more or debate but criticism as it seems to be too marvelous for them, and I, apparently, canít share truth that will step on the toes of other faiths that use the forums as it will contradict what they believe. I will go elsewhere. Thank you. I donít follow any particular established method of hermeneutics. My faith is Christian (born-again), non denomination that believes in following Godís Word whole heartily and there is only one Bible (Godís word), and we know what the cannon of scripture is, and God will be continuing revealing new truth and revelations about himself to his church that constitutes the bride of Christ in these last days. Thank you for your time.

Dalemac

bkMitchell
05-25-2011, 03:18 AM
I have not gotten a single response of like kind or wanting to know more or debate ...and I, apparently, canít share truth that will step on the toes of other faiths that use the forums as it will contradict what they believe...

What did you want to debate about? :confused:
If you'd like to talk about the Masoretic text and Masorah I would be happy to discuss it with you here.:)

Don't worry about you can share 'truth or data on the forums of course. However, my point was inform you that there is no one point of view shared by everyone on the forums.

Remember earlier when you asked:

does he have to follow old denominational traditional of the so-called established doctrines? I wanted to let you know that there are no 'doctrines' that everyone on these forums must hold to.

In general these forums have very little to do with 'theology' or 'doctrine' and a lot more do with a commerical software program for morphological and grammatical analysis original language texts.Of course this section of the forums is for any type of topic so you are in the right place.

bobvenem
05-25-2011, 08:04 AM
Please refrain from referring to DaleMac as a representative of Fundamentalists. Some of us can spell.

Besides, if he was a REAL fundamentalist, he'd use Scrivener's TR:cool:

Dale A. Brueggemann
05-25-2011, 10:14 AM
If [DaleMac] was a REAL fundamentalist, he'd use Scrivener's TR:cool:

Good way to start off my day, with a BibleWorks circle laugh.

Lee
05-25-2011, 06:02 PM
. . . the word of God (the cannon of the 39 OT books of Masoretic text and the 27 books of the original Greek NT (NESTLES, UBS, etc). . . . believes in following Godís Word whole heartily and there is only one Bible (Godís word), and we know what the cannon of scripture is, and God will be continuing revealing new truth and revelations about himself to his church that constitutes the bride of Christ in these last days.

Sir, you do realize the portion of your statement in boldface above completely contradicts what precedes it, do you not?

dalemac
05-26-2011, 11:37 AM
What did you want to debate about? :confused:
If you'd like to talk about the Masoretic text and Masorah I would be happy to discuss it with you here.:)

Don't worry about you can share 'truth or data on the forums of course. However, my point was inform you that there is no one point of view shared by everyone on the forums.

Remember earlier when you asked:
I wanted to let you know that there are no 'doctrines' that everyone on these forums must hold to.

In general these forums have very little to do with 'theology' or 'doctrine' and a lot more do with a commerical software program for morphological and grammatical analysis original language texts.Of course this section of the forums is for any type of topic so you are in the right place.

Thank you for your response.

Then, I will feel free to share truth as I see it from my understanding of what constitutes the Bible without mentioning any particular faith or denomination out of respect of Bible Works users but if it contradicts or offends anyoneís belief, I can not help that as this is what I believe and am not purposely trying to offend anyone Ė just looking for those who can see the same as I do or at least question it or want to know more about it themselves for I know Iím not the only one who believe these marvelous and wonderful things!

Iím not sure what was meant by different methods of hermeneutics unless talking about literal, allegorical, spiritual, etc., interpretation of scripture. I take principals of hermeneutics and add other principals not found in the books. I have a somewhat large library and have found almost every book off in areas when it comes to theology; good for background information but horrible on Christian theology (referring to the group that believes in being born-again).

My religion is born-again believer, Pentecostal (that is, speak or pray in tongues), non-denominational that believes in following the Word of God whole heartedly and that God will reveal more and more Truth in the days up ahead. I have gone to Bible College and earned a Master of theology but donít claim to be some genius as Iím not. Iím presently restudying Greek to the best of my ability, doing personal and complex Bible studies, and helping one Bible teacher.

I was not aware of the different cannons of scriptures. My understanding there is really only one Bible (or more properly one inspired Word of God) composing of the 39 books of the OT of basically the Massoretic text and of the 27 books of the Greek NT (Matt through Revelation) of the various English Bibles such as Rotherham, Numeric, Amplified, New World, Berkley, Concordant Literal, (NLT) (both versions), and the 1977 version of (NAS), all being the more literal to the Greek of UBS and Nestles texts and other texts). The (NLT) is good in most spots but sometime is way off the known original Greek because they translate certain verses according to the theology of the translators and abandon the Greek text. This is easily proven by an exegesis in BW. I hope this explains what you requested to know as Iím not fully sure how to respond.

Will share more later, if I can. For now, I have to stop.

Dalemac

dalemac
05-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Sir, you do realize the portion of your statement in boldface above completely contradicts what precedes it, do you not?

No, I do not see how it contradicts, please explain?

The Bible is not a complete revelation of God nor was it ever intended to be for God continues to give new revelation and understanding to his church but what God chose to write down as the cannon of scripture is complete. It is not a complete book on all the revelations and understanding God intended his church to have. God has revealed many things not found in the Bible (directly), but they do not contradict what is written in the bible.

Dalemac

Lee
05-26-2011, 02:33 PM
No, I do not see how it contradicts, please explain?

The Bible is not a complete revelation of God nor was it ever intended to be for God continues to give new revelation and understanding to his church but what God chose to write down as the cannon of scripture is complete. It is not a complete book on all the revelations and understanding God intended his church to have. God has revealed many things not found in the Bible (directly), but they do not contradict what is written in the bible.

Dalemac

If God continues to give new revelation, why would it not be appended to the Bible? Why would He give "new understanding" of the Bible if one can fully understand what is written simply by reading? (Eph. 3:3-4).

bobvenem
05-26-2011, 03:09 PM
No, I do not see how it contradicts, please explain?

The Bible is not a complete revelation of God nor was it ever intended to be for God continues to give new revelation and understanding to his church but what God chose to write down as the cannon of scripture is complete. It is not a complete book on all the revelations and understanding God intended his church to have. God has revealed many things not found in the Bible (directly), but they do not contradict what is written in the bible.

Dalemac


Now it makes sense. Your initial post was freshly-minted revelation. No wonder it was inscrutable.

Dale A. Brueggemann
05-26-2011, 04:17 PM
If God continues to give new revelation, why would it not be appended to the Bible?

For the same reason that a lot of what true prophets said in the Old Testament didn't end up in one of the writing prophet's books. For the same reason that we have no clue what most of the NT prophets said, e.g., Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. (Acts 13:1 NIV)

The equation of "revelation" with "canon" doesn't cut it. All canon is revelation, but not all revelation is canon.

dalemac
05-26-2011, 07:24 PM
If God continues to give new revelation, why would it not be appended to the Bible? Why would He give "new understanding" of the Bible if one can fully understand what is written simply by reading? (Eph. 3:3-4).

God didnít choose to continue the cannon of scripture, and Iím sure there are many reasons.

1) One reason is that there would be many claims of further cannon of the scripture and man would want to add more to what is considered the inspired Word of God. There would be no end to the claims.

2) God didnít want man to be just dependent on a book but on Him. Jesus said the Spirit will lead and guide you into all truth (john 16:13) but this would not be necessary if all we have to do is read the book. One has to have a personal close relation ship with the author of the Bible in order to understand truth or receive revelation, and it is usually given to his church through His pyramid government that He established, particularly to those who are much in the Word, pray-fully studying it.

3) The Bible is too brief and does not cove every situation and condition the church will find itself in. It is not a complete ďdo-it-allĒ manual nor is it thorough enough to cover everything. We would need a multi-volume Bible-cyclopedia for that.

For example: No where does the Bible say anything about altar calls yet those who believe like I do know this is a further revelation given by God to the church and helps the new born Christian in making an open stand before the world of his new faith in God and Jesus Christ (a principal that is found in the written word Ė Rom 10:9-10). No where does the Bible speak of Sunday school yet this is a further revelation of God and the principal is in the Bible. Samuel went about on a circuit teaching the Laws of God; Ezra taught the law and gave the sense of it (that is, he added things of what God showed him to what the Law meant and how to apply it); and we are to study the Word to show ourselves approved and submit to the rulers and teachers God put over us who explain the Word of God to us

4) There are several mysteries in the Bible but the principal of what you are saying applies to the Word of God (The mystery of Ephesian 3:3 is that the Gentiles are heirs with Israel). But not all the mysteries of God are revealed in the Bible and it will take further revelation to understand them. One cannot fully understand the bible by just reading it. In fact man is still studying it and there are many places we just do not understand till God reveals more. God told Daniel concerning the revelation he gave him in Dan 12:8-9 8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"
9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.


We are now approaching the ďend of timeĒ when God will reveal more.

Iím sure much more can be siad and others can do better than I can. I hope this is helps.

Dalemac

jimofbentley
05-26-2011, 07:43 PM
the cannon of scripture

This reminds me of a situation in the small country town where I had my first pastorate.

The formal title of a previous Anglican (Church of England - in the USA Episcopalian) priest was that of a “Canon”.

Believe it or not, his last name was “Ball”.

It has been over 20 years and it still causes me to smile. :D :D

Adelphos
05-26-2011, 07:43 PM
Not to pile on, but your entire foundation is fatally flawed, especially with regard to what God actually SAID. For example, God never told Daniel that he would add more WORDS to the canon, but that the WORDS that were ALREADY in the canon would simply LATER be UNDERSTOOD. Notice what God actually SAYS, not what you PRESUME him to have said...

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the WORDS are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:9-10

The Bible contains ALL, ALL, ALL that is needed for a GENUINELY born again Christian to RECEIVE revelation, and that INCLUDES end-time revelation. There is not a jot or a tittle that needs to be added to the canon for a GENUINELY born again Christian to understand the Bible.

The ONLY thing that is lacking is UNDERSTANDING, not more WORDS in the canon, and the ONLY way that UNDERSTANDING will accure is NOT by more WORDS, but by the INFALLIBLE REVELATION OF THE HOLY GHOST.

PERIOD.

If you don't comprehend THAT point, you have ZERO chance of EVER TRULY UNDERSTANDING ANYTHING that God in Jesus Christ says. And there are no exceptions to that. None whatsoever.

Furthermore, just to get it out there, your entire first post positively REEKED of America-centrism, and that is ALWAYS a dead give-a-away to someone who understands not the FIRST THING about the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ. Not the FIRST THING.

bkMitchell
05-26-2011, 07:47 PM
I was not aware of the different cannons of scriptures. My understanding there is really only one Bible (or more properly one inspired Word of God) composing of the 39 books of the OT of basically the Massoretic text and of the 27 books of the Greek NT

The 24 books of the Massoretic Text and the 39 books of the Protestant Old testament are actually the same, but they are counted differently and they are arranged differently as well.

Here, below, are the 24 books of the Massorectic Text/Hebrew Bible


Genesis

Exodus
Numbers
Leviticus
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges

Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Twelve Prophets
Psalms

Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs

Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
Chronicles

However, the Leningrad Codex has a slightly different order from this list.




בֶּן בַּג בַּג אוֹמֵר, הֲפָךְ בָּהּ וַהֲפָךְ בָּהּ, דְּכֹלָּא בָהּ

Lee
05-26-2011, 09:56 PM
For the same reason that a lot of what true prophets said in the Old Testament didn't end up in one of the writing prophet's books. For the same reason that we have no clue what most of the NT prophets said, e.g., Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. (Acts 13:1 NIV)

The equation of "revelation" with "canon" doesn't cut it. All canon is revelation, but not all revelation is canon.

Yes, oral revelation was necessary before written revelation was completed. Mid-first century Christians did not have a written New Testament they could consult. But the NT alludes to a time when the reception of miraculous revelation would end (I Cor. 13:8-10). With the death of the last apostle, the means of conferring such gifts ended (Acts 8:18).

I am aware that "revelation" and "canon" are not synonymous terms. However, with the closing of the canon, Divine special revelation also ceased. If there were new special Divine revelation--other than what the Bible says--would it not be just as authoritative as what the Bible says? And would it not be incumbent upon the one receiving it to distribute it as widely as writings of the apostles and other inspired writers of the NT have been distributed?

Lee
05-26-2011, 10:18 PM
2) God didnít want man to be just dependent on a book but on Him. Jesus said the Spirit will lead and guide you into all truth (john 16:13) but this would not be necessary if all we have to do is read the book. One has to have a personal close relation ship with the author of the Bible in order to understand truth or receive revelation, and it is usually given to his church through His pyramid government that He established, particularly to those who are much in the Word, pray-fully studying it.


Jesus said He would send the Spirit to guide the apostles into all truth, and He did (cf. I Cor. 2:9-13; II Pet. 1:3). I agree that one needs to approach his study of the word with the right attitude if he hopes to understand it (Jas. 1:21; I Pet. 2:1-2). But when you say, "God didn't want you to be just dependent on a book but on Him," what does that mean? Is the word of God somehow dirty when in a book, but purer when delivered orally? I fail to see how that leads to the conclusion of continuous revelation. I also am unaware of the "pyramid government that He established."



3) The Bible is too brief and does not cove every situation and condition the church will find itself in. It is not a complete ďdo-it-allĒ manual nor is it thorough enough to cover everything. We would need a multi-volume Bible-cyclopedia for that.


That is simply not true. The Bible covers every situation and condition of man and the church. Paul wrote, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Tim. 3:16-17). Is that a true statement, or false? If it is true (and it is), the Bible completely equips us. It's not like any situations that arise catch the Lord off-guard. He knew about the apostasy that would take place (I Tim. 4:1; II Pet. 2:1-2). He knew about the errors that would exist today. The Gospel, as God gave it, is completely adapted to man, as God made him.



For example: No where does the Bible say anything about altar calls yet those who believe like I do know this is a further revelation given by God to the church and helps the new born Christian in making an open stand before the world of his new faith in God and Jesus Christ (a principal that is found in the written word Ė Rom 10:9-10). No where does the Bible speak of Sunday school yet this is a further revelation of God and the principal is in the Bible. Samuel went about on a circuit teaching the Laws of God; Ezra taught the law and gave the sense of it (that is, he added things of what God showed him to what the Law meant and how to apply it); and we are to study the Word to show ourselves approved and submit to the rulers and teachers God put over us who explain the Word of God to us


Again, if the principle is in the Bible, we do not need additional revelation to tell us we can do it. But if it is not, we do not need additional revelation to tell us we cannot. "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" (Col. 3:17).

Dale A. Brueggemann
05-26-2011, 10:24 PM
Yes, oral revelation was necessary before written revelation was completed.... But the NT alludes to a time when the reception of miraculous revelation would end (I Cor. 13:8-10).

Yes, that would be in the new heavens and new earth. A little decent exegesis of 1 Cor 13:8ff is in order here. Surely, you understand that isn't talking about a completed NT Canon.

Adelphos
05-26-2011, 10:31 PM
Yes, that would be in the new heavens and new earth. A little decent exegesis of 1 Cor 13:8ff is in order here. Surely, you understand that isn't talking about a completed NT Canon.

I'm not going to get into this, but I'm glad you took that up. That is absolutely one of the most utterly abused Scriptures in all the Bible, and you have of course nailed the truth squarely on the head concering it. Godspeed.

Lee
05-26-2011, 10:52 PM
Yes, that would be in the new heavens and new earth. A little decent exegesis of 1 Cor 13:8ff is in order here. Surely, you understand that isn't talking about a completed NT Canon.

"Revelation" and "canon" are not synonymous.

But, yes, ultimately that can be understood as alluding to the closing of the canon.

dalemac
05-27-2011, 05:21 AM
The 24 books of the Massoretic Text and the 39 books of the Protestant Old testament are actually the same, but they are counted differently and they are arranged differently as well.

Here, below, are the 24 books of the Massorectic Text/Hebrew Bible


Genesis

Exodus
Numbers
Leviticus
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges

Samuel
Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
The Twelve Prophets
Psalms

Proverbs
Job
Song of Songs

Ruth
Lamentations
Ecclesiastes
Esther
Daniel
Ezra-Nehemiah
Chronicles
However, the Leningrad Codex has a slightly different order from this list.




בֶּן בַּג בַּג אוֹמֵר, הֲפָךְ בָּהּ וַהֲפָךְ בָּהּ, דְּכֹלָּא בָהּ

Thank you. I read something simular, and I putting this in my notes.

Dalemac

dalemac
05-27-2011, 08:54 AM
Not to pile on, but your entire foundation is fatally flawed, especially with regard to what God actually SAID. For example, God never told Daniel that he would add more WORDS to the canon, but that the WORDS that were ALREADY in the canon would simply LATER be UNDERSTOOD. Notice what God actually SAYS, not what you PRESUME him to have said...

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the WORDS are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:9-10

The Bible contains ALL, ALL, ALL that is needed for a GENUINELY born again Christian to RECEIVE revelation, and that INCLUDES end-time revelation. There is not a jot or a tittle that needs to be added to the canon for a GENUINELY born again Christian to understand the Bible.

The ONLY thing that is lacking is UNDERSTANDING, not more WORDS in the canon, and the ONLY way that UNDERSTANDING will accure is NOT by more WORDS, but by the INFALLIBLE REVELATION OF THE HOLY GHOST.

PERIOD.

If you don't comprehend THAT point, you have ZERO chance of EVER TRULY UNDERSTANDING ANYTHING that God in Jesus Christ says. And there are no exceptions to that. None whatsoever.

Furthermore, just to get it out there, your entire first post positively REEKED of America-centrism, and that is ALWAYS a dead give-a-away to someone who understands not the FIRST THING about the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ. Not the FIRST THING.

I did not say God will add to the canon of scripture but just the opposite Ė that the written word of God is complete! But God will continue to give revelation and understanding of the logos and about himself to his church in the last days. God will revel many more truths and unlock understanding of the written Word of God and give truths and understanding that are not necessary in direct words of the written word but are in principals, types, and shadows, nor will they ever contradict the written word. God is and will continual to speak to his church in revelation and understanding through his written word from anointed ministers and through visions, dreams, prophecies, and tongues and interpretation of tongues which are also the logos of God as He restores the offices and gifts in the days ahead.

I find it absolutely amazing that some of the sleepy church in American can not believe in the gifts or miracle while the persecuted church abroad have no trouble in believing in miracles or the gifts or even saint being raised from the dead for it is happening today right before their eyes. God will use World government and the accompanying persecution to get his church to believe and accept the gift and offices that He established and to forsake sin, worldliness, so-called Christian rock music, and to live in righteousness and true holiness.

Dalemac

dalemac
05-27-2011, 09:30 AM
This reminds me of a situation in the small country town where I had my first pastorate.

The formal title of a previous Anglican (Church of England - in the USA Episcopalian) priest was that of a ďCanonĒ.

Believe it or not, his last name was ďBallĒ.

It has been over 20 years and it still causes me to smile. :D :D

I hope he wasnít really ďfired up.Ē

Thank you and please excuse my spelling. I get words mixed up in my mind. One person asked me if I had dyslexia and I told him: know! Donít. So I struggle with words and grammar, but I think I get my point across enough for people to humble themselves enough on my level to understand me. My physical condition is also a factor as Iím suffering quite a bit right now and may have to quite these posts. It is hard to read at times and remember as Iím under heavy medication at times. Iím living on borrowed time because of saints praying for me and Godís wonderful mercy and grace. Iím so glad to be saved and know I have eternal life and Jesus will welcome me into Heaven even with all me imperfect grammar and spelling. But I found what you said interesting and I don't mind people helping me in spelling as I don't claim to be perfect in the natural.

Dalemac

dalemac
05-27-2011, 10:21 AM
Jesus said He would send the Spirit to guide the apostles into all truth, and He did (cf. I Cor. 2:9-13; II Pet. 1:3). I agree that one needs to approach his study of the word with the right attitude if he hopes to understand it (Jas. 1:21; I Pet. 2:1-2). But when you say, "God didn't want you to be just dependent on a book but on Him," what does that mean? Is the word of God somehow dirty when in a book, but purer when delivered orally? I fail to see how that leads to the conclusion of continuous revelation. I also am unaware of the "pyramid government that He established."



That is simply not true. The Bible covers every situation and condition of man and the church. Paul wrote, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Tim. 3:16-17). Is that a true statement, or false? If it is true (and it is), the Bible completely equips us. It's not like any situations that arise catch the Lord off-guard. He knew about the apostasy that would take place (I Tim. 4:1; II Pet. 2:1-2). He knew about the errors that would exist today. The Gospel, as God gave it, is completely adapted to man, as God made him.



Again, if the principle is in the Bible, we do not need additional revelation to tell us we can do it. But if it is not, we do not need additional revelation to tell us we cannot. "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" (Col. 3:17).

It is an assumption on you part that this is referring to the Apostles only and not the saints of God. I believe you are miss-applying 2 Tim 3:16; 1 Cor 2:9-13; and 2 peter, and I donít have time to go into it or feel well enough. God didnít want the Bible as complete manual of everything because he wants his people to trust him by faith that His holy spirit would lead and guide them into the revelations and understanding they need in every situation that is not expressively taught in the Bible.
Then where in the Bible does it say how to run a church, run Sunday school, or have altar calls. Where does it say how to worship God or how to sing spiritual songs or how to pray in the spirit? Where does it say how to get new songs from God? Where does it say how to apply or not apply OT customs to the Christian life? Where in the Bible does it say to hold two church services on Sunday and one on Wednesday? Where in the Bible does in say how to determined if prophecies and visions are of God or not; how to resist evil spirits or cast them out or rebuke them? Where does it say how to walk in the Spirit? Where does the Bible talk about smoking, social drinking, or if there are indeed cases to have an abortion or not? Where does the Bible talk about Holy Spirit anointed music and how do you tell what is not spiritual, carnal, or worldly? Where doe sit say in the Bible whether a world government cash card and identity is the same as the Mark of the beast? Where do you see the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles in the NT especially when we do see a spiritual fulfillment of the feast of Passover and Pentecost? And so on and so on? I think I have answered rest in other posts.

Dalemac

Adelphos
05-27-2011, 10:30 AM
It is an assumption on you part that this is referring to the Apostles only and not the saints of God. I believe you are miss-applying 2 Tim 3:16; 1 Cor 2:9-13; and 2 peter, and I don’t have time to go into it or feel well enough.

Thanks for letting us know about your physical situation. I will pray earnestly for you. And I do find much of what you say refreshing.

You are also absolutely correct in your above statement that you made to another poster.

If those of words of Jesus don't apply to ALL of his elect post Pentecost, then no man could be born again. I won't explore that here, but these types of assertions that Jesus' words, except in a clear contextual setting, only apply to Jesus' disciples, SMACK of the flesh, for there isn't a GENUINELY born again Christian on this planet who hasn't EXPERIENCED the Holy Spirit leading him into all truth on numerous matters, and I mean SUPERNATURALLY guiding him into all truth. Not one.

I would only encourage you to lay hold on Jesus HIMSELF and realize that God isn't calling people to America, or morality, or clearn living, or spiritual music, but rather, God is calling his elect out of darkness into the light of Jesus Christ HIMSELF, who ALONE is worthy -- among angels, men, and all creation -- Jesus ALONE is worthy.

And if God takes you soon, I hope to meet you in Jesus Christ's kingdom and at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Dale A. Brueggemann
05-27-2011, 04:21 PM
yes, ultimately that can be understood as alluding to the closing of the canon.

That's a total non sequitur, unless YOU think the canon's still open until Jesus returns :confused: And are you really arguing that you now have "full understanding" (v. 10) and no longer see through a "cloudy mirror" (v. 12)?

Lee
05-27-2011, 10:06 PM
If those of words of Jesus don't apply to ALL of his elect post Pentecost, then no man could be born again.

Why? Jesus was not speaking of what would take place to enable His hearers to be born again. He was speaking of the full delivery of revelation. He was clearly speaking specifically to His apostles when He said, "I have YET many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now" (verse 12). Does this statement apply to all Christians? No, it points out the teaching that His apostles had received from Jesus during His ministry versus the inspiration they would receive from the Holy Spirit.

Question--Of the Samaritans to whom Philip preached, it is said, "[W]hen they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women" (Acts 8:12). Were they saved/born again at that time, or not?

Lee
05-27-2011, 10:20 PM
That's a total non sequitur, unless YOU think the canon's still open until Jesus returns :confused: And are you really arguing that you now have "full understanding" (v. 10) and no longer see through a "cloudy mirror" (v. 12)?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you are saying. I am not sure why you suggest I believe the canon is open, and I am unaware of anything in I Cor. 13:10 that approximates your quotation "full understanding."

I would still be interested to hear you answer my previous question(s): "If there were new special Divine revelation--other than what the Bible says--would it not be just as authoritative as what the Bible says? And would it not be incumbent upon the one receiving it to distribute it as widely as writings of the apostles and other inspired writers of the NT have been distributed?"

To this, I might add, what right did anyone who posted in this thread have to question what dalemac said? He claimed to have revelation from God. If new revelation is still being given by God, we are all obligated to align ourselves with this new revelation.

Adelphos
05-27-2011, 10:27 PM
Question--Of the Samaritans to whom Philip preached, it is said, "[W]hen they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women" (Acts 8:12). Were they saved/born again at that time, or not?

Of course not. They weren't born again until Peter and John came and prayed down the Holy Spirit upon them. Absolutely basic regeneration 101.

http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/ScottJones/great_gamble.htm

The first and greatest truth that the Holy Spirit reveals -- and the greatest truth that the Holy Spirit will EVER reveal to his elect -- is Jesus Christ. And not one single soul on this planet will set foot in the kingdom of heaven who is not a recipient of that SUPERNATURAL revelation.

Contrary to the ignorance of this unlearned and most unknowledgeable geneneration in the history of the world, it takes SUPERNATURAL FAITH to be GENUINELY saved, and the ONLY person who can bestow that SUPERNATURAL FAITH is the Holy Spirit, which is the FIRST act of his guiding the believer into all truth, followed by multitudes upon multitudes of other such revelations.

If someone would have told me I didn't believe in Jesus five minutes before I was born again, I would have told them they were looney.

But then Jesus Christ HIMSELF sent the Holy Spirit upon me and showed me that all my faith was fleshly faith, unregnerate faith, damning faith.

And there isn't a GENUINELY born again Christian on this planet who hasn't had the exact same experience. Wait and see.

This generation of professing Christians strives more to justify unbelief than all the previous generations of the world combined, and nowhere do they do this more by denying the manifest SUPERNATURAL EXPERIENCES that EVERY GENUINELY born again believer receives and undergoes from the day of his regeneration and onward, as the Lord wills, bar none.

All who PROFESS to be Christians but who cannot testify to having received SUPERNATURAL FAITH in the UNMISTAKABLE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE of the New Birth are in for a very rude awakening come judgment day.

And thus the clear teaching of Jesus and the entire Bible will then be fulfilled and seen to be true indeed --

"Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it." Matthew 7:14

dalemac
05-28-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you are saying. I am not sure why you suggest I believe the canon is open, and I am unaware of anything in I Cor. 13:10 that approximates your quotation "full understanding."

I would still be interested to hear you answer my previous question(s): "If there were new special Divine revelation--other than what the Bible says--would it not be just as authoritative as what the Bible says? And would it not be incumbent upon the one receiving it to distribute it as widely as writings of the apostles and other inspired writers of the NT have been distributed?"

To this, I might add, what right did anyone who posted in this thread have to question what dalemac said? He claimed to have revelation from God. If new revelation is still being given by God, we are all obligated to align ourselves with this new revelation.

When God speaks to his local body through prophecy or tongues and interpretation of tongues, it is Divine revelation but itís for the local body and not intended as Divine canon to be distributed to the churches, an assumption on your part. But God has spoken to ministers to give messages to the churches such as through Bob Larson and others and there have been some prophecies recorded that applied to the church world but these are not ďholy writĒ and were never intended to be but they are still messages of God. How do you know? By searching the written word of God and see if contradicts it or by principals, by the Holy Spirit leading and guiding you into all truth.


I resent your last statement of not questioning what I said and making me sound like some divine person with special revelations from God. This is not right. I might not have explained everything perfectly but I am not claiming to have special divine revelation from God. I said I have (along with others) have received revelations from the written word that much of the church word has not received and that Godís Spirit would illuminate to his bride church things that are not expressively taught or clear in the written Word but are in there in precedence, types, shadows, principals, illusions, etc.

You should be questioning what I say: Is there any principal, precedence, illusion, type, and shadow, in the Bible to what he is saying. Does the Holy Spirit bear witness to it in prayer. Does my spirit feel this is of God, is there any other churches who believe this, and many other points to consider.

Why is it so difficult to receive what I say? We never abandon the written word of God but God does speak to his church in prophecies, tongues and interpretation of tongues and in visions and dreams; all have to be judged by the written word and Godís Spirit. The word of God does not cover every situation and the Holy Spirit will lead us with further revealtion and understandign in these areas.

Also God speaking directly to his people giving them wisdom and knowledge of what to do up-ahead or giving them comfort and encouragement and love is the Word of God but it may not be brought forth perfectly through man and still has to be judged if truly of God or not. Do you believe in the gifts and miracles and if not, why not? It is in your Bible?

Dalemac

Lee
05-28-2011, 10:33 PM
Of course not. They weren't born again until Peter and John came and prayed down the Holy Spirit upon them. Absolutely basic regeneration 101.

http://www.lamblion.net/Articles/ScottJones/great_gamble.htm

The first and greatest truth that the Holy Spirit reveals -- and the greatest truth that the Holy Spirit will EVER reveal to his elect -- is Jesus Christ. And not one single soul on this planet will set foot in the kingdom of heaven who is not a recipient of that SUPERNATURAL revelation.

Contrary to the ignorance of this unlearned and most unknowledgeable geneneration in the history of the world, it takes SUPERNATURAL FAITH to be GENUINELY saved, and the ONLY person who can bestow that SUPERNATURAL FAITH is the Holy Spirit, which is the FIRST act of his guiding the believer into all truth, followed by multitudes upon multitudes of other such revelations.

If someone would have told me I didn't believe in Jesus five minutes before I was born again, I would have told them they were looney.

But then Jesus Christ HIMSELF sent the Holy Spirit upon me and showed me that all my faith was fleshly faith, unregnerate faith, damning faith.

And there isn't a GENUINELY born again Christian on this planet who hasn't had the exact same experience. Wait and see.

This generation of professing Christians strives more to justify unbelief than all the previous generations of the world combined, and nowhere do they do this more by denying the manifest SUPERNATURAL EXPERIENCES that EVERY GENUINELY born again believer receives and undergoes from the day of his regeneration and onward, as the Lord wills, bar none.

All who PROFESS to be Christians but who cannot testify to having received SUPERNATURAL FAITH in the UNMISTAKABLE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE of the New Birth are in for a very rude awakening come judgment day.

And thus the clear teaching of Jesus and the entire Bible will then be fulfilled and seen to be true indeed --

"Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it." Matthew 7:14

Sir, I would submit to you that those who choose to wait for a "supernatural experience"--versus submitting to the authoritative word of the Lord--are the ones who will be in for the rude awakening. Read the rest of Matthew 7.

I am shocked that you would call the Samaritans unsaved after they had believed and obeyed the Gospel. The laying on of the apostles' hands imparted the miraculous gifts to them, but they were already saved. Since you say the Samaritans were unsaved until Peter and John arrived, I assume you would assert that the Ethiopian eunuch was unsaved at the conclusion of Acts 8. He heard the same preaching from the same man that the Samaritans did, and was baptized by the same man. But apparently his "rejoicing" was groundless, since Peter and John (or another apostle) had not arrived on the road to Gaza to impart the Holy Spirit to him.

I assume you would then say the "faith" of Romans 10:17 is not saving faith?

Adelphos
05-28-2011, 11:07 PM
Sir, I would submit to you that those who choose to wait for a "supernatural experience"--versus submitting to the authoritative word of the Lord--are the ones who will be in for the rude awakening. Read the rest of Matthew 7.

I would suggest you take a basic course in logic, especially with regard to what constitutes a logical fallacy, because you just made one as wide as the universe, nor is your logical fallacy even remotely indicative of my doctrine and that of Bunyan, Whitefield, Goodwin, Flavel, and tons of others who have stated the exact same thing I said, and sometimes almost in the very same words.


I am shocked that you would call the Samaritans unsaved after they had believed and obeyed the Gospel. The laying on of the apostles' hands imparted the miraculous gifts to them, but they were already saved. Since you say the Samaritans were unsaved until Peter and John arrived, I assume you would assert that the Ethiopian eunuch was unsaved at the conclusion of Acts 8. He heard the same preaching from the same man that the Samaritans did, and was baptized by the same man. But apparently his "rejoicing" was groundless, since Peter and John (or another apostle) had not arrived on the road to Gaza to impart the Holy Spirit to him.

I assume you would then say the "faith" of Romans 10:17 is not saving faith?

Yes, you would be shocked since you clearly haven't the first clue as to what constitutes supernatural faith and what constitutes fleshly faith. In fact, it's clear that you don't even know that the two are different at all, which speaks more than volumes.

"When did the Spirit of the Lord Jesus shew thee that thou hadst no faith in thee by nature?" John Bunyan, Some Gospel Truths Opened

"If we believe not with faith divine and supernatural, we believe not at all." John Owen, The Reason Of Faith

"None of us believe by nature, but after the Holy Ghost has convinced us of the sin of our natures, and the sin of our lives and duties, in order to convince us of our utter inability to save ourselves, and that we must be beholden to God, as for everything else, so for faith (without which it is impossible to please, or be saved by Christ) he convinces us also, that we have no faith." George Whitefield, Sermon, The Holy Spirit Convincing The World Of Sin, Righteousness, And Judgment

Ad infinitem. And of course, those three quotations are the experience of every single genuinely born again Christian on this planet, without exception.

Indeed, there isn't a genuinely born again Christian on this planet who cannot so testify, and who doesn't know the infinite difference between supernatural faith and fleshly faith.

bobvenem
05-29-2011, 08:49 AM
So, what is "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8-9? Grace, faith, or something else?

Adelphos
05-29-2011, 02:20 PM
So, what is "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8-9? Grace, faith, or something else?

All of the above, but primarily faith. And the actual experience of regeneration makes the arguments about the femine referrent merely academic, for no genuinely born again Christian here or in heaven would ever deny that his faith -- all of his faith, every jot and every tittle -- is the gift of God, for supernatural faith, which is the only faith that is accepted before God, cannot be indited or manufactured by the flesh, but is wholly from the Holy Ghost, from the Alpha to the Omega. There are no exceptions.

As Bunyan so accurately said with regard to supernatural faith --

"All the professors that have not faith which floweth from being born of God [supernatural faith], will seek to enter into heaven, and shall not be able." John Bunyan, The Strait Gate

bobvenem
05-29-2011, 03:22 PM
All of the above, but primarily faith. And the actual experience of regeneration makes the arguments about the femine referrent merely academic, for no genuinely born again Christian here or in heaven would ever deny that his faith -- all of his faith, every jot and every tittle -- is the gift of God, for supernatural faith, which is the only faith that is accepted before God, cannot be indited or manufactured by the flesh, but is wholly from the Holy Ghost, from the Alpha to the Omega. There are no exceptions.

As Bunyan so accurately said with regard to supernatural faith --

"All the professors that have not faith which floweth from being born of God [supernatural faith], will seek to enter into heaven, and shall not be able." John Bunyan, The Strait Gate

Hmm, I always thought it was "other" (the salvation process--conviction, repentance, faith, regeneration--initiated and superintended by the Spirit). Thanks for the thought-fodder.

Adelphos
05-29-2011, 03:47 PM
Hmm, I always thought it was "other" (the salvation process--conviction, repentance, faith, regeneration--initiated and superintended by the Spirit). Thanks for the thought-fodder.

Well that's the thing, isn't it? You can't separate the Holy Spirit from any of it, as it ALL proceeds from grace, grace, and sheer grace alone, but the ROOT grace is faith. All other graces proceed from the ROOT grace of faith, and apart from the ROOT grace of faith, no grace proceeds to the elect of God.

Lee
05-30-2011, 12:26 PM
I would suggest you take a basic course in logic, especially with regard to what constitutes a logical fallacy, because you just made one as wide as the universe, nor is your logical fallacy even remotely indicative of my doctrine and that of Bunyan, Whitefield, Goodwin, Flavel, and tons of others who have stated the exact same thing I said, and sometimes almost in the very same words.



Yes, you would be shocked since you clearly haven't the first clue as to what constitutes supernatural faith and what constitutes fleshly faith. In fact, it's clear that you don't even know that the two are different at all, which speaks more than volumes.

"When did the Spirit of the Lord Jesus shew thee that thou hadst no faith in thee by nature?" John Bunyan, Some Gospel Truths Opened

"If we believe not with faith divine and supernatural, we believe not at all." John Owen, The Reason Of Faith

"None of us believe by nature, but after the Holy Ghost has convinced us of the sin of our natures, and the sin of our lives and duties, in order to convince us of our utter inability to save ourselves, and that we must be beholden to God, as for everything else, so for faith (without which it is impossible to please, or be saved by Christ) he convinces us also, that we have no faith." George Whitefield, Sermon, The Holy Spirit Convincing The World Of Sin, Righteousness, And Judgment

Ad infinitem. And of course, those three quotations are the experience of every single genuinely born again Christian on this planet, without exception.

Indeed, there isn't a genuinely born again Christian on this planet who cannot so testify, and who doesn't know the infinite difference between supernatural faith and fleshly faith.

Nice response. Ad hominem attacks, no Scripture. You accuse me of a logical fallacy without ever identifying the fallacy.

So is Romans 10:17 saving faith, or is it not?

Adelphos
05-30-2011, 01:49 PM
Nice response. Ad hominem attacks, no Scripture. You accuse me of a logical fallacy without ever identifying the fallacy.

So is Romans 10:17 saving faith, or is it not?

With regard to your latter question about Romans 10:17, the terms "supernatural faith" and "fleshly faith" still haven't registered with you. Which is wholly revealing.

You also need to learn what constitutes an ad hominem attack, because you won't find a single ad hominem attack in my previous post to you.

Moreover, the fact that you can't identify your own logical fallacy also speaks volumes.

I'm afraid that one of us is FATALLY -- and I do mean FATALLY -- deceived. Which is to say, I know for a fact that the Jesus who indwells me doesn't indwell you.

One of us has a false Jesus.

I'll leave that to the judgment seat of Jesus Christ.

Lee
05-30-2011, 03:56 PM
With regard to your latter question about Romans 10:17, the terms "supernatural faith" and "fleshly faith" still haven't registered with you. Which is wholly revealing.

As is your refusal to answer a very simple question.



You also need to learn what constitutes an ad hominem attack, because you won't find a single ad hominem attack in my previous post to you.

For example, suggesting that I need to take a basic logic course, instead of answering my questions. I do not claim to be an expert logician or debater, but I have had a course in basic logic, thank you.



Moreover, the fact that you can't identify your own logical fallacy also speaks volumes.

Really, what is that statement supposed to prove, other than being a personal attack? Why not just come out and say it: "Lee, you are ignorant and stupid"--because that is the message that you are conveying. That may be sufficient to win a message board debate in your mind and in the minds of your fans, but I would wish you had a little more interest in simply setting forth truth.



I'm afraid that one of us is FATALLY -- and I do mean FATALLY -- deceived. Which is to say, I know for a fact that the Jesus who indwells me doesn't indwell you.

You know no such thing. I do not know you personally, but the supposed arguments you have presented in this thread are based on sheer emotionalism and subjectivism. Why do you claim as "fact" what no actual evidence supports?

What if I were to tell you that the experience I had when I put on Christ was more moving than the experience you claim to have had? How would you disprove it? You couldn't. You are basing your entire hope on the feelings of your heart, when "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).



One of us has a false Jesus.

I'll leave that to the judgment seat of Jesus Christ.
You haven't so far--why start now?

JerriHarrison
06-11-2011, 07:55 PM
just tell me when the world will end next so i can party like its 1999 right before. I will also look my best and get a great shave. (http://www.thebestshaving.com)

bkMitchell
06-11-2011, 10:54 PM
just tell me when the world will end next so i can party like its 1999 right before. I will also look my best and get a great shave. (http://www.thebestshaving.com)

And, the correct answer is:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." (Mar 13:32-33 KJG)

"But as for that day or hour, nobody knows it, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son; no one but the Father.'Be on your guard, stay awake, because you never know when the time will come."(Mar 13:32-33 NJB)

Welcome to the forums Mr. Harrison! But, remember before you post please beware that there are various theological positions on the concept of eschatology. I doubt that anyone here seriously believes the world is coming to an end(any time soon) as you apparently assumed they did.

As, for shaving there are those of us who think it is better not to shave, and many of believe that beards are cool!

jimofbentley
06-12-2011, 05:41 AM
If I may ask a question with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek:

"Will the Cubs win a World Series before the Rapture (or whatever view of the return of Christ you happen to hold to) occurs - or will all Cubs fans have to suffer for eternity?" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mind you, it has been over 100 years, and that seems like an eternity already! ;):D

bkMitchell
06-12-2011, 06:17 PM
If I may ask a question with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek:

"Will the Cubs win a World Series before the Rapture (or whatever view of the return of Christ you happen to hold to) occurs - or will all Cubs fans have to suffer for eternity?" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mind you, it has been over 100 years, and that seems like an eternity already! ;):D

The answer to that question largely depends on whether or not they will be allowed to play baseball in the Messianic age to come(if they do not win a world series before that period).