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View Full Version : Are the modules offered through WordSearch integrated with BibleWorks or read-only?



Kristofer
04-24-2011, 11:25 PM
If I bought BibleWorks8 and bought the commentaries from WordSearch would the commentaries be integrated with the Bible I am viewing so that if I click on the verse the commentary will turn to that verse comment automatically? or would they be jut like a separate file that you have to read like a book?

Michael Hanel
04-24-2011, 11:44 PM
If I bought BibleWorks8 and bought the commentaries from WordSearch would the commentaries be integrated with the Bible I am viewing so that if I click on the verse the commentary will turn to that verse comment automatically? or would they be jut like a separate file that you have to read like a book?

I guess I don't know what you mean when you use that dichotomy. I blogged about them a little bit on the unofficial BibleWorks blog (http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?p=732), maybe seeing pictures of them there may help give you an idea about them.

Essentially, it is a separate file, like grammars in BibleWorks are. But if you are in Genesis 3:16 for instance and you have a commentary that has cited Genesis 3:16, it will show up in the analysis window and if you click on the link you are immediately taken to that spot in the commentary.

Kristofer
04-25-2011, 05:31 AM
Ok, that is better than having to switch back and forth to and from a different bible program that has modern scholarly bible commentaries. The way it works with e-Sword is that the commentaries are divided up so when you click on a verse, if a particular commentary commented on that specific verse, it will let you know that there is a comment in that commentary on that specific verse by highlighting that tab. So if you have 10 commentaries, only the commentaries that have comments on that exact verse will be highlighted. This saves me from having to skim through 10 commentaries to find the ones that commented on that specific verse. Even if the commentaries don't automatically open up, if BibleWorks will highlight them so I will know without having to open each one up, whether they have a comment there or not, that would be great. And is it instantly opened to that passage in the commentary? Or do you have to take additional steps to get to that page? Do you have to wait for the book to load each time you click on the commentary? With e-Sword jumping from one commentary to the next on the same passage is a breeze. If I upgraded to BibleWorks I would want something relatively close to this kind of ease.

Kristofer
04-25-2011, 05:34 AM
sorry, i just re-read your last post, and you said it quite plain that it will immediately take me to that spot. I guess you can't get much more plain than that. I guess I am just a little paranoid about investing in it. I am sure that if I got it I would be totally amazed and happy with it.

Kristofer
04-25-2011, 06:34 AM
I guess this may seem inconsequential to many people, but to me it kind of matters. I enjoy looking at an aesthetically pleasing bible program, and the only thing that holds me back from buying this program perhaps is the (sorry) boring look to it. It looks so '80s to me. I mean I think e-Sword looks better than this program. Have you all seen theWord? I am sure it is dwarfed by BibleWorks' capabilities, but I have to say it sure looks good. If I have to stare at the computer screen for hours studying scripture, I really appreciate it if it does not look so plain. I don't mean to put it down, but this is my advice. That's all. Other Bible programs have really made their programs look nice. TheWord really looks good on my screen. The letters are crisp and clear. It just really looks nice. That is what I want when I buy a new Bible program that I intend to build on and use for years. I expect it to look like just as good as other new programs.

On that note, the advancements that theWord apparently is using also makes the fonts look really clear. As far as functionality, I think this is a legitimate concern (not just for aesthetics) because it should be easy to read the diacritical marks on the greek fonts, not to mention the fact that I want the english fonts to look crisp and clear against a brilliant white background like I have on theWord. Can you all maybe update the overall appearance of your program? That would certainly make it much more appealing for me to buy it.

Kristofer
04-25-2011, 07:00 AM
The other thing I noticed is that this program comes with a very large number of bibles in different languages. Why not offer less of those and throw in one modern commentary or two? And then people from different countries could just buy an add-on Bible in their native tongue? I will probably never use most of those foreign language Bibles. I would much more prefer maybe one modern commentary. There must be room for extra modules on this program, because the different language Bibles are not necessary for studying the Bibles ancient tongues. So I don't think you leave out commentaries because it will interfere with the functionality of the foreign language tools. So why not put a modern commentary in with the initial package and eliminate all of those Bibles in different languages and maybe offer them for free as an add-on or for a nominal fee as an add-on?

How clear are the fonts? The views of the program in the online brochure look very fuzzy.

Glenn Weaver
04-25-2011, 09:19 AM
Hi Kristofer,

Thank you for the suggestions about the looks of BibleWorks. We will take them into consideration. Asthetics are always difficult, as everyone has different tastes.

The mission of BibleWorks is to focus as closely as possible on the Biblical text. We include a large number of non-English versions because we have a lot of users throughout the world. We have a policy that we do not charge extra for Bible versions. Because this is so, we do not sell Bible versions as add-on modules.

Adding Bible commentaries is a difficult item. There are so many different commentaries available, and everyone has their favorites. It would take a lot of time in our development department to format these commentaries, and this would take time away from working on other features that are more central to our core mission. We are glad that WORDsearch is making available Bible commentaries for those who wish to add them to BibleWorks. I am not saying that we will never add commentaries, but right now we have alot of other things to develop for the program.

When a resource (such as a grammar, dictionary, commentary, etc.) contains a Scripture reference, the reference appears in the Resource Summary Window. In this way you can see instantly which resources contain reference to the Scripture reference. You do not have to search for the reference--the reference appears automatically in the Resource Summary Window. Clicking on the reference in the Resource Summary Window opens that resource and takes you directly to the place where the Scripture reference appears in the resource. Both the BibleWorks and the WORDsearch modules work in this way.

If you purchase BibleWorks directly from BibleWorks, there is a 30-day money-back guarantee. If BibleWorks does not suit your needs, then you can return the program within that time period for a refund, less the shipping costs. If you have questions about this, you can contact our Customer Service team and they can answer any questions you may have about it. (I am in content development, so contacting Customer Service would yield better answers than I can give about this.)

Blessings,
Glenn

Dale A. Brueggemann
04-25-2011, 10:04 AM
I enjoy looking at an aesthetically pleasing bible program, and the only thing that holds me back from buying this program perhaps is the (sorry) boring look to it. It looks so '80s to me. I mean I think e-Sword looks better than this program.

And I think BibleWorks has a clean functional appearance, which I appreciate. Surely don't want it to start looking like MS Word!

Lee
04-25-2011, 10:52 AM
I guess this may seem inconsequential to many people, but to me it kind of matters. I enjoy looking at an aesthetically pleasing bible program, and the only thing that holds me back from buying this program perhaps is the (sorry) boring look to it. It looks so '80s to me. I mean I think e-Sword looks better than this program. Have you all seen theWord? I am sure it is dwarfed by BibleWorks' capabilities, but I have to say it sure looks good. If I have to stare at the computer screen for hours studying scripture, I really appreciate it if it does not look so plain. I don't mean to put it down, but this is my advice. That's all. Other Bible programs have really made their programs look nice. TheWord really looks good on my screen. The letters are crisp and clear. It just really looks nice. That is what I want when I buy a new Bible program that I intend to build on and use for years. I expect it to look like just as good as other new programs.

On that note, the advancements that theWord apparently is using also makes the fonts look really clear. As far as functionality, I think this is a legitimate concern (not just for aesthetics) because it should be easy to read the diacritical marks on the greek fonts, not to mention the fact that I want the english fonts to look crisp and clear against a brilliant white background like I have on theWord. Can you all maybe update the overall appearance of your program? That would certainly make it much more appealing for me to buy it.

Kristofer,

My thoughts were very similar to yours before I first purchased BW. Here is a thread (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?4518-Bibleworks-vs.-Logos-vs.-Accordance-Interface&p=22552#post22552)I started about a year ago expressing the same concerns. And I think you will see several of those concerns addressed in the responses.

The fact is, BW does not provide nearly the eye candy that some other programs provide. But once you learn the layout, you will find it is very functional. What takes 8 clicks on other programs takes one on BW. That is, if the other programs have the ability to perform that particular function at all.

Also, if you primarily want a program that links the Bible to various commentaries, BW is probably not for you. There are several Bible programs that serve that purpose, but BW serves a unique niche to "Focus on the (Biblical) Text." The addition of the commentaries via WordSearch is certainly welcome, but you will find them moved to the periphery instead of the front and center other Bible software gives its commentaries.

Kristofer
04-26-2011, 06:40 AM
I certainly appreciate you all tolerating my seemingly child-like comments about the appearance of the platform of BibleWorks. It is so un-Christian to put a high value on what is on the surface of things. It's what's inside that counts. I will probably end up with BibleWorks as my Bible program, Lord willing, and I am looking forward to using some of those tools. I do intend to further my greek studies first though, so I can really appreciate the many dimensions of it.

The only reason I want commentary and dictionary links is because the reason for me to do lexical and grammatical research is just one stage of biblical exegesis in a methodology that I have studied from Intro to Biblical Interpretation by Klein, Blomberg, and Hubbard Jr. The steps are:

1- study the history/ culture behind the text
2- Determine the context of the text
3- Study lexical meanings
4- Study grammar

This is just in a nut-shell, and only my short version of what they say, and I hope I did it accurate justice. But my point is that I need to do more than study the Greek and Hebrew. They recommend using commentaries and Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias to research the culture and history behind the text.

Ok.... here is what I am getting at...

In e-Sword I can click on a verse and if I click on any of the commentaries it will take me to that commentaries comment that was written specifically on that verse; not an exhaustive list of every occurrence of that verse in the entire commentary. That may actually not be all that expedient. I don't know. I think I would like it e-Sword's way- just taking me directly to that commentary's entry that is specifically about that verse. How will I find the comment that the commentator wrote specifically on that verse with BibleWorks? It might take me 10 minutes to sift through all the references to that verse to find the meat that I am looking for. I really don't want to switch back and forth between two programs. I know you are busy working on the foreign language tools, but this would be really great if there was a feature where you could just cut directly to that commentaries comment that he wrote about that verse. Usually commentaries go in order from verse to verse, you know what I mean? I want to be able to go through the commentary from verse to verse, just as I would read a normal commentary in a Bible/ Commentary. I wouldn't read Gen 1:1 and look in the commentary for EVERY mention of Gen 1:1. I would look at what the commentator's first entry was in his commentary, namely what he wrote for Gen 1:1. I don't want to be the anti-BibleWorks guy. I know you have a theme and you don't want to stray from it. Maybe I will have to get two programs.

By the way, another question I have is this: Is it possible you could offer a modern unabridged english dictionary module for BibleWorks? A lot of times I want to look up the english words in the lexicons that define the greek and hebrew words.

I am not sure if you want me to take the above questions to customer service or questions about the money-back guarantee.

Thanks for the help.
Kris

Kristofer
04-26-2011, 06:54 AM
Thanks Lee. I checked out the thread. It cerainly makes it easier to take the plunge! I see what you're saying about the commentaries. I don't necessarily need them in the front and center either. I just wish I could go directly to the single entry that is dedicated to that particular verse, not every single occurence of a reference to that verse. I really don't want to shell out thousands of dollars on two modern programs, when I could just buy BibleWorks and some commentaries from WordSearch and then be done!

Thanks again!

Michael Hanel
04-26-2011, 08:32 AM
Ok.... here is what I am getting at...

In e-Sword I can click on a verse and if I click on any of the commentaries it will take me to that commentaries comment that was written specifically on that verse; not an exhaustive list of every occurrence of that verse in the entire commentary. That may actually not be all that expedient. I don't know. I think I would like it e-Sword's way- just taking me directly to that commentary's entry that is specifically about that verse. How will I find the comment that the commentator wrote specifically on that verse with BibleWorks? It might take me 10 minutes to sift through all the references to that verse to find the meat that I am looking for. I really don't want to switch back and forth between two programs. I know you are busy working on the foreign language tools, but this would be really great if there was a feature where you could just cut directly to that commentaries comment that he wrote about that verse. Usually commentaries go in order from verse to verse, you know what I mean? I want to be able to go through the commentary from verse to verse, just as I would read a normal commentary in a Bible/ Commentary. I wouldn't read Gen 1:1 and look in the commentary for EVERY mention of Gen 1:1. I would look at what the commentator's first entry was in his commentary, namely what he wrote for Gen 1:1. I don't want to be the anti-BibleWorks guy. I know you have a theme and you don't want to stray from it. Maybe I will have to get two programs.


I have no intention of misleading you so I am little hesitant if I don't completely understand what you mean, but BibleWorks can do this same thing. It may be a bit more complicated if the commentary has 40 references to Genesis 1:1, but let's say you don't care (for now) about when Genesis 1:1 is referred to in other parts of the commentary, you only want to go through the exegesis of Genesis 1:1 itself. Even if you couldn't tell which reference it was, you can very quickly find it in the commentary itself because it has an index that you can show along the side to click to the right part of the commentary. Furthermore, the references are generally quite easy to figure out because in the Analysis window, you will have a reference followed by the name of the section that it is found in. For instance I am in Matthew 1:1 and see it has multiple references in the New Bible Commentary. One reference says in "Outline of Contents" 3 in "1:1-4:16 Introducing Jesus", one in "4:17-16:20 Public ministry in and around Galilee" etc. Maybe I don't know what each of those references is going to say about Mat 1:1, but I do at least have some idea where I'll be in the commentary.

Glenn Weaver
04-26-2011, 09:14 AM
Hi Kristofer,

Thank you for the suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

It is possible that you will want to have more than one program. No one program has all the resources that you might want to use. I have more than one program, though I use BibleWorks for almost everything. When I was in the pastorate I tended to spend a LOT more time in the text than I did in commentaries. With the great search features in BibleWorks, I spent time running searches and investigating the search results. This yielded a great amount of background information and wonderful illustrations. My messages were richer Biblically and I grew much more by doing the investigation than if I was reading commentaries. I looked at commentaries to check my conclusions and see if I was missing crucial information. There is a place for commentaries, but I have found that commentaries do not yield the same spiritual benefit as doing the investigative work in the text. And frequently the same things that the commentaries say are what I found by running searches in BibleWorks. (And sometimes running searches in BibleWorks corrected errors or missed information in the commentaries.)

Everyone studies differently, and changes in how they do their study, so your conclusions may not be the same as mine.

I suggest continuing to ask your questions on the forums. The folks on the forums are very helpful, and their different perspectives may provide a better answer than what Customer Service could provide. Questions about the 30-day return policy should be directed to Customer Service, though.

Blessings,
Glenn

Kristofer
04-27-2011, 06:21 AM
Thank you for all your help (most recently to Mr. Hanel and Mr. Weaver) and for the great answers. I am really looking forward to getting this program after I do more studies in Greek. I don't want to be distracted from doing the basics first.

I still am wondering though (sorry) whether you think it is a good idea to add an unabridged english dictionary that we could just click on an english word in a lexicon's definition or description and click on the english dictionary and it would take us right to it. I can always use my dictionary on my computer but I also liked that time-saving feature on e-sword. My english vocabulary has much to be desired, and I am kind of a double-checking freak. Even though I am pretty sure what an english word means, if it is really convenient I would like to just do a quick check on some words so I am sure I know what the greek or hebrew word means. And many times I just flat don't know what an english word means.:(

Glenn Weaver
04-27-2011, 08:18 AM
Hi Kristofer,

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to implement an English dictionary in the way you describe, but we will consider it.

Blessings,
Glenn

Michael Hanel
04-27-2011, 08:55 AM
Hi Kristofer,

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to implement an English dictionary in the way you describe, but we will consider it.

Blessings,
Glenn


Wouldn't the main problem with that be that it would not just have to be a dictionary but essentially be able to parse words in English? For instance if you right click "working" it would have to know to send you to the entry for "work." Maybe such programs exist, but it does sound kind of complicated.

Glenn Weaver
04-27-2011, 09:27 AM
Hi Michael,

Yes, you are correct in what it would have to do. It would function differently than the dictionaries currently function in BibleWorks. What we have to consider for any program addition such as this is 1) how difficult would it be to implement, and 2) is the effort worth the benefit to BibleWorks users.

If this is somethign that only a handful of people would use, then it probably isn't worth the effort. If this is something that would be a great benefit to a lot of people, then it probably would be worth it. We will have to consider the proposal and see if it meets the criteria for inclusion.

Blessings,
Glenn

MGVH
04-27-2011, 08:55 PM
Wouldn't the main problem with that be that it would not just have to be a dictionary but essentially be able to parse words in English? For instance if you right click "working" it would have to know to send you to the entry for "work." Maybe such programs exist, but it does sound kind of complicated.
Why not just use the External Link Manager to connect to an online dictionary? I've attached the setup you need below. Note that in the "Web page, File to open..." box you need to put:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/<dummy>
Give it a try on a word like "working," and you will see that it is smart enough to get you to the right word. Even an irregular English conjugation like go, went, gone works just fine. (Dictionary.com seems to work better than MerriamWebster online.) The only drawback is that I'm not always online, but that's becoming increasingly rare for everyone, I think.
859
You will also note that I have set up a link to Wikipedia (for what it's worth, and sometimes it's worth enough!). In any case, I'd rather the BW folks be working on something other than integrating an English dictionary.

Lee
04-27-2011, 11:02 PM
Thanks, Mark! Just set that up on my BW.

One quick question though--is there any way to get it to work with the analysis window, or can it only work with the browse window?

Glenn Weaver
04-28-2011, 08:31 AM
Hi Mark,

Your solution is wonderful--great thinking! However, the original poster actually wants to be able to use this for words in the Analysis Window, and there is currently no provision for the External Links Manager for words in the Analysis Window.

I agree with you that this would not be a top features in BibleWorks, but if it would be very easy to implement it might be worth doing. We will have to see what our talented programmers have to say about it.

Blessings,
Glenn

MGVH
04-28-2011, 10:54 AM
... and it's pretty slick that allows linking anywhere, but I have to get a bunch of grading done yet today. I hope to get a notice posted yet tonight... You will like!