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kitwalker
08-22-2010, 07:36 AM
The other day I was reading the ESV and spotted in 1 Samuel 13:1 that the translators have chosen to use three dots to represent the uncertainty in the original texts.


Saul was... years old when he began to reign, and he reigned... and two years over Israel. (1Sa 13:1 ESV)I was kind of blown away that they would do that. I mean how are you meant to read that kind of translation aloud in church or memorise it? So I was interested as to how many times the translators chose to do it.

But I can't seem to work out how to do the search in Bibleworks because both times in 1 Samuel 13:1 the '...' is joined to the previous word. Any suggestions?

Adelphos
08-22-2010, 03:26 PM
I couldn't find a way to do this search from within BW, so I exported the ESV to an RTF file using BW's "export" feature. I then loaded the RTF file into Word and searched on "..."

As it turns out, this instance in 1 Samuel is the only one.

Michael Hanel
08-22-2010, 07:51 PM
The other day I was reading the ESV and spotted in 1 Samuel 13:1 that the translators have chosen to use three dots to represent the uncertainty in the original texts.

I was kind of blown away that they would do that. I mean how are you meant to read that kind of translation aloud in church or memorise it? So I was interested as to how many times the translators chose to do it.

But I can't seem to work out how to do the search in Bibleworks because both times in 1 Samuel 13:1 the '...' is joined to the previous word. Any suggestions?

I have not done punctuation searches of my own, but I do know that you can do them, but you have to use the GSE. If you open it, I think there are examples of punctuation searches that perhaps you can modify. Otherwise search the forums, I believe others have talked about this in the past as well.

ISalzman
08-22-2010, 07:59 PM
I wonder if it would be searchable if the '...' weren't appended to the previous word. It strikes me that something like this ought to be searchable in BW. Scott, your method was definitely resourceful. Kudos to you. But, intuitively, we shouldn't have to export something from BW in order to search on it. Even in the case of unusual characters such as these (i.e., '...'), BW ought to have a means for searching on them.

Adelphos
08-22-2010, 09:46 PM
I considered doing a punctuation search but I didn't want to mess with the GSE.

It took all of about 30 seconds to export the text to an RTF and then find it in Word. Literally.

Also, while I agree that as much as possible should be searchable, yet the capability of BW to export bible versions should not be overlooked, IMO. So that if you can't do it one way in BW, you can almost always do it another way. I think that's pretty commendable.

bkMitchell
08-23-2010, 10:00 PM
"...if you can't do it one way in BW, you can almost always do it another way. I think that's pretty commendable."-Adelphos

That, is probable Bibleworks most salient point!

Bibleworks rarely locks it's users into one way of executing a search or doing anything else. For me, there is a thrill of discovery in figuring out ways to manipulate the command line and GSE/ASE to run more complex queries. With a little bit of cognitive elbow grease(time and effort) Bible Works is capable of answering inquiries that necessitate a very high level of sophistication.



Below is 'an' example of a Punctuation search in this case for the "?" mark:


Punctuation Searches

First,

1) Go to the menu: Search > Set Search Limits
2) Choose the Limit the Search using a custom search range
3) In the box labeled range enter Job
4) Choose the OK button

Second,

1) Go to the menu: Search > Advanced Search Engine
2) Choose from the menu: File > Open
3) Open the file: PUNCTN.QF
4) Left mouse click on the box all words agree
5) Press the delete button, and click on the yes button

Third,
1) Choose from the Advanced Search Engine menu: Queries > properties
2) Choose the flag tab
3) Check the box so that cross verse boundries is checked
4) Click on the OK button

Fourth,
1) Double left mouse click on box labeled exactly 0
2) Choose required at the bottom
3) Check the box custom punctuation
4) Put a ? the box and nothing else
5) Choose the ok button
6) Choose the Go button

Note: If you see the first word highlighted, it is because the previous verse ended with a ?



Grace and Peace

kitwalker
08-24-2010, 01:02 AM
I couldn't find a way to do this search from within BW, so I exported the ESV to an RTF file using BW's "export" feature. I then loaded the RTF file into Word and searched on "..."

As it turns out, this instance in 1 Samuel is the only one.

Good one! I should have thought of that, considering the query (...) is pretty unusual.

Also glad to know it is pretty rare in the translation. But still, for me it would definitely be a factor against placing ESV bibles in church pews.

Thanks again.

Adelphos
08-24-2010, 11:57 AM
Also glad to know it is pretty rare in the translation. But still, for me it would definitely be a factor against placing ESV bibles in church pews.

Fully agreed. This move by the ESV in this verse has to be one of the biggest bone-headed moves in the entire history of Bible translation. I am sure they have a "reason" for it, but whatever "reason" they have for it, it is a bone-headed reason through and through, so much so, that it might just be THE biggest bone-headed move in the entire history of Bible translation.

Mark Eddy
08-24-2010, 03:43 PM
1) This was NOT a move by the ESV. The ... were introduced in the RSV, and are included in the NRSV as well. The idea was adopted also by NAB, NJB, TNK, and JPS substituted -- .
The fact is that the Hebrew text, literally translated says: "Saul [was] a son of years," which normally is translated "Saul was years old." How many years? Nobody knows. The LXX totally omits the verse. So, you either conjecture (which the RSV elsewhere notoriously did), or you translate honestly, and let people know that we don't know how old Saul was, nor exactly how many years he reigned.

2) I'm sure that there are plenty of candidates for "THE biggest bone-headed move in the entire history of Bible translation." If this were not a BibleWorks forum, I could come up with many more theologically-significant misleading translations. But, to be hyperliteral, consider the "translation" "Calvary" in Luke 23:33 in KJV, etc. which in no way translates the meaning of the Greek KRANION, but puts an English ending on a Latin word. That, literally, is bone headed. Think about it. :)

Mark Eddy

Adelphos
08-24-2010, 05:35 PM
Well, I'm not going to get into a debate about it, but the Masora has a lot to say about things in the OT, which the translators of modern "bibles" have shown themselves completely ignorant of, but which the KJV translators were absolute masters of, which sheds much light on passages such as this, and also Calvary is a perfectly good translation of that verse in the KJV, just as Diana is in Acts, when one actually understands all of the factors that go into it.

Notice that I didn't bring up the version issue. I was simply commenting on this one factor within the ESV translation. You notified me that other "bibles" did this as well, and that would have been good enough. I was not making an issue of the version debate.

But since you saw it necessary to do so, I will now briefly explain, and then I'll be done with it.

In short, the Jesus who indwells me doesn't indwell those who are aware of the distinctions and who yet accept the removal of "God" in 1 Timothy 3:16, or the removal of "which is in heaven" in John 3:13, or the removal of "by Jesus Christ" in Ephesians 3:9, and all the other verses that disparage the glory of Jesus Christ, as the Holy Spirit HIMSELF INFALLLIBLY TESTFIES to those who are indwelt by him, at least the Holy Spirit, and thus the Jesus, who indwells me.

Succinctly put, those who disagree with me are simply not indwelt by the same Jesus I am indwelt by. I happen to know this for a fact, because the Jesus who indwells me has borne witness to me EMPHATICALLY on the matter. And I do mean EMPHATICALLY, as he does to ALL that are indwelt by the Jesus I am indwelt by.

Therefore, either me or them is FATALLY -- and I do mean FATALLY -- deceived. Either I am indwelt by a false Jesus, or they are.

It's that simple, and just so there's no misunderstanding about it, before I ever studied the issue at all, MANY years ago when I was FIRST made aware of the issue, and was shown the distinction in 1 Tiimothy 3:16, the Jesus who indwells me -- that is, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Christ who indwells me, the SAME Jesus Christ who personally introduced himself to me and indwelt me and made me a new creature on Easter Sunday, April 22, 1973 when I was alone in my bedroom at about eleven o'clock in the moring reading the book of Mattew in the King James Bible -- indeed, the VERY SAME JESUS bore EMPHATIC INSTANTANEOUS WITNESS to me that the Traditional Text was true in this verse and that the Critical Text was false. And the same with the other verses.

And as I said, that was the FIRST time I was ever even made aware of the issue, and before I had ever collated the first manuscript, or read the first book on the subject.

Moreover, the Jesus who indwells me does the EXACT SAME for ALL who are indwelt by the Jesus I am indwelt by and who have been made aware of the distinction.

So one of us -- either me or them -- is FATALLY deceived.

Notice I am not directly asserting that another person is saved or not, or making any personal attacks on any single person, but rather, I am putting myself in the same box.

That is, I am saying that the Jesus who indwells me speaks to me, as he does with ALL whom he truly indwells, a la John 10 and other passages, and therefore you or anybody else are perfectly welcome to accuse me of being indwelt by a false Jesus.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. It wouldn't be the first time.

Nevertheless, I know whom I have believed, thus let everyone know of a certaintity that the Jesus who indwells me does not indwell those who are aware of the disctinctions and who yet accept the Critical Text.

So again, one of us is indwelt by a false Jesus, and thus one of us -- either me or them -- is FATALLY deceived.

And if the Jesus who indwells me is the true Jesus, I won't have to retract a single, solitary syllable of what I've just written come judgment day.

Jim Wert
08-24-2010, 07:59 PM
I composed the following before seeing Mark Eddy's learned contribution. I decided to submit it anyway; it might add a bit of information. For example, JPS, published well before the RSV, has a long dash to indicate the missing age of Saul.

1 Samuel 13:1 is an interesting example of how different translators deal with a difficult text -- Saul's age is missing in Hebrew, length of reign may be incomplete. The verse is absent in standard editions of LXX. BibleWorks makes it easy to check out how different translations handle it. ("d english" on the command line for all English versions; "d all" for the stout of heart).
As usual, the NET notes give a useful summary of the issue, and alternate resolutions.

The following is based on the English versions in BibleWorks, including some additions from the BW Blog. This is not exhaustive -- I'm trying to show some patterns.

KJV, NKJ, COVerdale 1535, Bishops 1568, Geneva 1599, Leeser, WEB all have something like "Saul reigned one year" for the first part of the verse, rather than taking it as Saul's age.
KJV, NKJ, ASV 1901, CJB, COV, WEB have something like "and when he had reigned two years over Israel" for the second part of the verse.

ASV has Saul's age as forty; NAS agrees; NAU says thirty.
CSB, ERV, GWN, NAU, NET, NIV, NLT all say Saul was thirty, and cite "A few late manuscripts of the Septuagint" (NIV)
CSB, GWN, NAU, NIV, NLT say he reigned for 42 years. NET says 40, NAS says 30.

CJB, DBY 1884, ESV, JPS 1917, NAB, NJB, NRS, RSV, TNK have a placeholder for Saul's missing age.

WYCliffe, DRA say Saul was one year old when he began to reign.

BBE, LXE omit the verse

YLT says "A son of a year is Saul in his reigning, yea, two years he hath reigned over Israel,"

Adelphos
08-24-2010, 08:07 PM
As I said, I'm through with here, but for anyone who might be interested, I've expanded my statement quite a bit and posted on my website if anyone wants to read it.

David Kummerow
08-24-2010, 08:53 PM
I was kind of blown away that they would do that.
Note that this is standard practice for some translations. The Swedish Bible of 2000 indicates untranslatability by three hyphens, ie [---]. I can't remember how many times it does this, but I remember it does this for words and phrases and even for entire verses in some instances.

Here's an article on the subject:

Åsberg, Christer. 2007. “The Translator and the Untranslatable: A Case of Horror Vacui.” The Bible Translator 58: 1-11. (http://www.ubs-translations.org/fileadmin/publications/tbt/technical/TBT_TP_Asberg_Jan_07.pdf)

Regards,
David.

haydnguy
09-02-2010, 07:39 AM
As I said, I'm through with here, but for anyone who might be interested, I've expanded my statement quite a bit and posted on my website if anyone wants to read it.

I'm not sure I WANT to know!!! :p

bkMitchell
09-28-2010, 06:13 PM
The Original question that started this Thread has now been successfully answered.


Question:

I can't seem to work out how to do the search in Bibleworks because both times in 1 Samuel 13:1 the '...' is joined to the previous word. Any suggestions?


Answer:

I was able to use this command line search: <~\.\.\.> to find the ellipsis in ESV 1Sa 13:1.
(see recent thread discussing this). I must admit that it took me longer to figure out how to do this than it took Adelphos to export the whole version and search in a word processor.

I found the description of Regular Expressions in BW help a little too cryptic for me to understand, found the Wikipedia article on said expressions to be helpful, gave me enough information to construct the above search.

--Jim

Yaku Lee
09-29-2010, 07:42 AM
But I can't seem to work out how to do the search in Bibleworks because both times in 1 Samuel 13:1 the '...' is joined to the previous word. Any suggestions?

I find that "regular expression search" is very handy for punctuation search. For the ESV search for "..." enter <~\.\.> or <~\.\.\.> on the CL, without the angle brackets, of course.

Another example with KJV as the search version. Enter <~\-\;> on the CL, and it will find you "--;" which occurs only once in Exo 32:32. You can experiment with other punctuations, e.g. <~\?> for "?" and so on. Remember to type only the characters inside the pair of angle brackets.

Regards.

Jim Wert
09-29-2010, 11:52 AM
Please be aware that when you use the copy feature of this forum it can change some of the characters copied. So if you want to use a search string someone has copied, you are safest to go back to the original post.
For example, in the post second previous to this one the copied search string displays like this:
"<~|.|.|.>" while the original string was "<~\.\.\.>"

--Jim

bkMitchell
10-01-2010, 08:29 PM
Please be aware that when you use the copy feature of this forum it can change some of the characters copied. So if you want to use a search string someone has copied, you are safest to go back to the original post.
For example, in the post second previous to this one the copied search string displays like this:
"<~|.|.|.>" while the original string was "<~\.\.\.>"

--Jim


Thanks Jim.
I have edited my post based on this.