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View Full Version : A Hindrance to Phrase Searches



ISalzman
03-08-2010, 04:32 PM
All,

I wanted to find every occurrence for the Hebrew phrase "Yom tov." (Sorry, no Hebrew fonts seem to be available in the updated Forums.) A Command Line search for the phrase returns only one hit (1 Samuel 25:8). The problem is that the phrase actually occurs two other times. However, since the other two occurrences of the phrase are prefixed by a coordinating vav (or waw, as some may prefer), they don't return as hits. This fact is severely limiting. Is there a way that this hindrance can be overcome? Grateful for any insight.

It strikes me that a phrase search should not be disabled on account of the presence of a coordinating vav (or an inseparable preposition, for that matter!). The prefixed vav or preposition does not alter the fact or presence of the phrase. BibleWorks should be intuitive enough to pick up on this. This hindrance undermines the power and potential of the program to execute phrase searches with accurate results. Not trying to gripe here, but these are just my reflections and perceptions.

Adelphos
03-08-2010, 04:51 PM
It strikes me that a phrase search should not be disabled on account of the presence of a coordinating vav...

It's not. You can use one or more ? to replicate one or more characters, or you can use the * to match all. In your case you would prefix one of those two marker(s) to your phrase, depending on exactly how you want to refine it.

ISalzman
03-08-2010, 05:29 PM
It's not. You can use one or more ? to replicate one or more characters, or you can use the * to match all. In your case you would prefix one of those two marker(s) to your phrase, depending on exactly how you want to refine it.

Thanks. What if the entire phrase were pluralized? In other words, what would I do if I wanted to search for every occurrence of the phrase whether singular (Yom Tov) or plural (Yamim Tovim)? Is this a phrase search that could be executed from the CL?

Adelphos
03-08-2010, 05:33 PM
Thanks. What if the entire phrase were pluralized? In other words, what would I do if I wanted to search for every occurrence of the phrase whether singular (Yom Tov) or plural (Yamim Tovim)? Is this a phrase search that could be executed from the CL?

Without even breaking a sweat. I would suggest that you click on the GREEN Tools menu below the CL and then select Command Line Examples.

ISalzman
03-08-2010, 05:44 PM
Without even breaking a sweat. I would suggest that you click on the GREEN Tools menu below the CL and then select Command Line Examples.

Okay. Thanks Scott.

MBushell
03-08-2010, 09:23 PM
All,

I wanted to find every occurrence for the Hebrew phrase "Yom tov." (Sorry, no Hebrew fonts seem to be available in the updated Forums.) A Command Line search for the phrase returns only one hit (1 Samuel 25:8). The problem is that the phrase actually occurs two other times. However, since the other two occurrences of the phrase are prefixed by a coordinating vav (or waw, as some may prefer), they don't return as hits. This fact is severely limiting. Is there a way that this hindrance can be overcome? Grateful for any insight.

I would do a phrase search using lemmas. i.e. user WTM instead of WTT.
Mike

ISalzman
03-08-2010, 10:07 PM
I would do a phrase search using lemmas. i.e. user WTM instead of WTT.
Mike

Yes, thanks Mike. I thought of that afterwards. I know that would work. I'm just trying to avoid the extra steps and having to insert all the additional codes.

bkMitchell
03-09-2010, 12:33 AM
I'm just trying to avoid the extra steps and having to insert all the additional codes.

Okay, then here is what I'd do:
(a) Open the WTM
(b) go to 1 Samuel 25:28
(c) In WTM Highlight
יוֹם@ncmsa+SxxxExHaNxZyRx טוֹב@amsa+SxxxExHaNxZ0Rx

(d) Right Click on your mouse
(e)Then choose the 'search for Phrase' option
(f) admire the 5 hits you receive

Or you could simply type in the phrase you want to look for and using Adelphos' suggestion you could use the * in place of all the other codes. This would also work too in WTM. You can keep WTT as you display(reading) version and use the WTM as the search version.

Grace and Peace

Glenn Weaver
03-09-2010, 09:09 AM
Hi Irving,

I almost never run any searches over text versions when there is a companion morphology version. The real searching power is in the morph versions. They are much more flexible. With the popup Command Line Morph Helper, I don't have to memorize the codes. And I don't have to enter any codes at all if I want to search on a lemma, since not adding any codes means " @*", or "all codes". (In Hebrew you will probably want to at least specify noun or verb in the codes, though.)

It is fine to search on the text versions if you wish, but as you found out, there are so many word form variations to take into account that it becomes difficult to find all the relevant hits.

Mark Eddy
03-09-2010, 09:45 AM
Welcome back, Glenn!
Just a reminder that it is good that BW can search both the text versions and the morphology versions (and can even have accent sensitive searches). There are times when you may want to find an exact phrase or even exact cantillation. Searching a morphology version in that case would show far too many hits. We just have to remember which kind of version is best for which kind of search.
Mark Eddy

ISalzman
03-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Brian and Glenn, thanks to you both for your very helpful suggestions. Your respective prescriptions both turned up the 5 hits. Glenn's is definitely the hands-on easier method though. I didn't realize how easy Lemma searches can be performed from the CL when the WTM (or a morphology version) is the search version. As Glenn indicated, all one need do is type the phrase with their lemmas and all forms automatically come back. That is great to know! It makes things a whole lot easier. Thanks again to you both!

Irving

bkMitchell
03-09-2010, 07:49 PM
...I didn't realize how easy Lemma searches can be performed from the CL when the WTM (or a morphology version) is the search version. As Glenn indicated, all one need do is type the phrase with their lemmas and all forms automatically come back. That is great to know! It makes things a whole lot easier...
Irving

When you installed Bibleworks8 there was an option to install videos and sound. If you have them installed do the following:

Under the Help menu click on Study Guides a pop-up menu with four categories should appear on your screen. Under the Analyzing Bible text category you should see searching the Greek and Hebrew text heading. Click on that, and a study guide will open, now scroll down that page till you see searching in Greek and Hebrew in boldface type. On the left hand side you should will see a computer monitor icon with a green arrow on it with a subtitle that reads click to play. Click on it and play and watch the video. That video may help to better illustrate and inform you on some of the methods for searching morphological databases in Bibleworks.

Providing that you have the videos installed there are a lot of other videos that may also prove helpful for you.

ISalzman
03-09-2010, 09:47 PM
When you installed Bibleworks8 there was an option to install videos and sound. If you have them installed do the following:

Under the Help menu click on Study Guides a pop-up menu with four categories should appear on your screen. Under the Analyzing Bible text category you should see searching the Greek and Hebrew text heading. Click on that, and a study guide will open, now scroll down that page till you see searching in Greek and Hebrew in boldface type. On the left hand side you should will see a computer monitor icon with a green arrow on it with a subtitle that reads click to play. Click on it and play and watch the video. That video may help to better illustrate and inform you on some of the methods for searching morphological databases in Bibleworks.

Providing that you have the videos installed there are a lot of other videos that may also prove helpful for you.

Thanks Brian. I watched it (I've got the videos installed). Good refresher, though there wasn't anything I didn't already know. And even had I watched this video even before I started this thread, I still would have had my original question. Remember that I was stymied when the first word in a phrase search was prefixed by a coordinating vav. The video didn't address that particular scenario. But the video is certainly helpful. Thanks again.

bkMitchell
03-09-2010, 10:10 PM
...even had I watched this video even before I started this thread, I still would have had my original question. Remember that I was stymied when the first word in a phrase search was prefixed by a coordinating vav. The video didn't address that particular scenario...

I guess the help files, and the videos could be clearer and re-written to deal with Hebrew specific searches. However, I think the study guides did address this concept or at least they tried to. The following was taken from the study guide:

There are two kinds of Greek and Hebrew versions. One is a text version, which looks the same as a printed Greek or Hebrew text. When you search on a text version, you must type the exact form of the word that you wish to find....

The second type of Greek or Hebrew text is a morphologically-tagged version. This version is not designed to be read, but searched. These morphologically-tagged versions have all the parsing information for each word. This morphological tagging allows you to search easily for specific word forms, parts of speech, or grammatical forms....


...Retype your search on the Command Line. Type the lemma XXXX followed by @, and then notice what the dropdown menu contains. On the list is an asterisk, the *. The * is a wildcard, which means that it can take the place of any or all characters. Perform the search for


.XXXX@*


and you will find every form of the word XXXX. The * wildcard enables you to search for every form of the lemma.


Grace and peace

ISalzman
03-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Thanks Brian.

bkMitchell
03-09-2010, 10:28 PM
Thanks Brian.

No, thank Bibleworks for having the forums.

Language be it written or spoken is finite and as such can never totally communicate to everyone the exact same message. That issue in conjunction with the fact that each of us: understands, hears, and experiences words differently based on our own backgrounds, educations, and ways of thinking can often foster misunderstandings.

That is what is so great about having forums, because one can get different(or same) answers communicated by different individuals in various ways. And, the odds are that at least one of the respondents will be able to bridge the gap.

ISalzman
03-09-2010, 10:44 PM
No, thank Bibleworks for having the forums.



And, of course, todah la'el, nachon?