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tfjern
12-16-2009, 07:23 AM
I've checked the help file and BibleWorks forum for an answer to a simple WLM question, but to no avail, so I am asking for help here.

I would like to generate in BibleWorks 8.0 a word list that will include both all the Greek words (in BGT: 57711 total) and all their lemmas (in BGM: 15505 total), and then export it as one two-columned file. This would result in a lot of lemma repetitions, of course. Be that as it may, it would be nice to be able to compile such a list, for teaching purposes, if anything.

Mark Eddy
12-16-2009, 11:42 PM
I think that all you need to do is open the Word List Manager, click on "Load or Generate Word List" with BGT as your search version and the default range of Gen. 1:1-Rev. 22:21 with and asterisk on the "Filter Words using" line. Click "Create List", and you will get a list in order of occurance of 53077 words (I don't know why it differs from the number you gave). Then click on "Secondary Word List" at the bottom left of the WLM, and repeat the process, except use BGM as your search version. You'll come up with 15286 words. Again, I don't know why there is a discrepancy between this and the number you gave. You can then save this verse list.
I don't know where you wish to export it, but if you click on the WLM "File" you will see two options: "Export to RTF file" and "Export to Text file." One of those should help you. But this seems to save just one of the two lists at a time, not both in separate columns.
There is also a Help button on the WLM which might help you along.
Mark Eddy

tfjern
12-17-2009, 03:19 AM
Thanks, but that is already in the Help File, more or less.

To explain again (and probably this can't be done in BibleWorks 8.0 now, but hopefully it will be in future versions):

In Word List Manager, with BGT, you generate 57711 words (not the number quoted above).

In Word List Manager, with BGM, you generate 15505 words (again not the number quoted above). Go figure.

Is there some way to generate a word list that would consist of two columns, (1) all the Greek words (in BGT), (2) plus all their dictionary forms (in BGM)?

tfjern
12-17-2009, 07:04 AM
Thanks, Bob, but that procedure would take almost forever to complete. It is strange that this feature (simply compiling a list of Greek words with their dictionary forms) is not available as an option.

Maybe Mike could be persuaded to perform his programming wizardry to add this as an option to WLM. Or perhaps somebody out there could come up with a workaround.

MGVH
12-17-2009, 10:33 AM
This isn't going to automate the collection of the data you want into the 2 columned table, but the info is actually already collated and embedded into BW8.
In the Analysis tab, if you right click anywhere, you will have the option to:
Choose Lemma/Form Usage Statistics > Choose the 2 options (you will have to repeat this step twice to select both) for including the complete Greek lemma usage info.
Once you have done that, whenever you hover over a Greek word in the Browse window, at the very bottom of the analysis tab, you will get every form used of that lemma. See the graphic below.
Now... how do you pull all that info together without doing it one word at a time.
(...OTOH, I'm not sure this project should be high on the priority list of the BW8 folks...)

Adelphos
12-17-2009, 04:44 PM
Have you tried the Report Generator for this task? It seems to me that the RG would be the way to go for this.

ISalzman
12-17-2009, 05:07 PM
Have you tried the Report Generator for this task? It seems to me that the RG would be the way to go for this.

Hey Scott, where do you access the Report Generator, by the way?

Of a somewhat related issue, I had someone in my congregation ask me yesterday about Jesus' challenge to his disciples to keep his commandments (John 15). Specifically, they asked me, "What are Jesus commandments?" I answered with the usual suspects. But later, I thought it would be interesting to isolate all of Jesus' commandments in the gospels. I figured on the following procedure. One would have to do a Command Line search of all the imperative verbs in the Gospels. Then one would have to sift through all the imperatives looking specifically for those which came from the lips of Jesus. Then, of those, you would want to look for the imperatives that were addressed to his disciples (for example, you wouldn't want to include his command to the demons to leave the herd of swine). Finally, you would want to ferret out the commands that were intended to be regularly heeded on an ongoing basis as opposed to those that were merely situational. For example, you wouldn't want to include his command to the disciples to bring him the donkey upon which he would ride into Jerusalem at the Triumphal Entry. That was a one time, situational command. A study of this type would yield all of his commandments. But it would be time consuming. But I've started with the search. As I have time, I'm going to delete all the verses with imperatives uttered by individuals other than Jesus. Then I will get rid of all the innocuous imperatives that were not intended to be timeless. Eventually, I want to have a list of all the commands of Jesus in the Gospels. It will be interesting to see the distribution and which particular commands were the most frequent. For example, in Mt 7, Jesus says "Seek..., Ask...., Knock." Obviously, those three all relate to prayer. Jesus just restated much like we do when we want to make a strong point or be emphatic. We commonly tell those who are desirous of starting a business the thing that is important: "Location..location..location!"

At any rate, I may do a sermon series on the commands of Jesus one day. All this to ask, "Would the Report Generator be able to tell me the frequency of the different imperatives of Jesus?

Dale A. Brueggemann
12-17-2009, 05:26 PM
I thought it would be interesting to isolate all of Jesus' commandments in the gospels.

See John Piper, What Jesus Demands from the World (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1581348452/ref=s9_simp_gw_s0_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0811DKJQ6WJ93QMZF9E2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846). Piper wrote this after asking the same question. He saw Jesus claiming "all authority in heaven and on earth" and then telling his disciples to go, "...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded" (Matt 28:18,19). So he went through the Gospels and noted about 500 relevant imperatives, which he then digested into about 30 categories to produce the 15-chapter book on this.

Maybe you'll find his book interesting reading. I haven't read the book, though he was with us at Tyndale House while he was writing it, so we heard his thinking and ideas at coffee and tea breaks from time to time.

ISalzman
12-17-2009, 06:02 PM
See John Piper, What Jesus Demands from the World (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1581348452/ref=s9_simp_gw_s0_p14_t1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0811DKJQ6WJ93QMZF9E2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846). Piper wrote this after asking the same question. He saw Jesus claiming "all authority in heaven and on earth" and then telling his disciples to go, "...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded" (Matt 28:18,19). So he went through the Gospels and noted about 500 relevant imperatives, which he then digested into about 30 categories to produce the 15-chapter book on this.

Maybe you'll find his book interesting reading. I haven't read the book, though he was with us at Tyndale House while he was writing it, so we heard his thinking and ideas at coffee and tea breaks from time to time.

Sounds like it would be a pretty interesting book. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to save it to my Wish list at Amazon. I'm funny in this way though. If I'm preparing a study or sermon and I know someone else has done a sermon or study on the same passage or topic, I won't look at their work until I'm pretty much finished with my own. I don't want someone else's work to influence my own; atleast not until I've done and exhausted most of my own thinking on the passage or subject.

As an example, several years ago, I believe it was PreachingToday.com that offered the full text of a Haddon Robinson sermon as a free download. It was on the Martha and Mary passage in Luke 10. The title of Haddon's sermon was "Don't just do something; sit there!" I thought the title was ingenious so, naturally, I downloaded it. But I never read it; it was sitting in a folder on my PC. Then several months ago, I was moved to preach on the passage myself. But I refused to look at Haddon's sermon though I had the full text of it on my PC. In fact, when I opened up Haddon's sermon for the first time was when I got home from my congregation after I had preached my message. I must say that I braced myself before reading Robinson's sermon fearing that I might find something that would provoke me to say exasperatedly, "Oh, if only I had seen that or said that!" With all due respect for Haddon's greatness as an homiletician, in all frankness, there was nothing I would have changed about my sermon even if I had read his sermon before I preached my own. And that's not to take anything away from his sermon or, in any way, to commend mine.

tfjern
12-17-2009, 09:14 PM
Thanks a lot, Senior Members, for cluttering up what was, I thought, I sincere question about the WLM.

Adelphos
12-17-2009, 09:22 PM
It is strange that this feature (simply compiling a list of Greek words with their dictionary forms) is not available as an option.

The Report Generator does exactly this. Various format options are also available in the RG.

tfjern
12-17-2009, 10:59 PM
Adelphos, you were not one of the forum-abusing Senior Members I was referring to; they were the ones carrying on the irrelevant book discussion, above.

The Report Generator does give both Greek words and dictionary forms, but 1) you would have to generate a massive report for the entire LXX/NT, and 2) dump the results into a, say, MS Excel spreadsheet to delete all the repetitions / duplications.

One of the posters above commented that this two-columned word list is probably not a priority item on BibleWork's roadmap. Well, if not, it should be. It would be handy not only to be able to generate a list of, say, Greeks words in a particular version, but also include the dictionary forms of these Greek words.

Adelphos
12-17-2009, 11:17 PM
It would be handy not only to be able to generate a list of, say, Greeks words in a particular version, but also include the dictionary forms of these Greek words.

Unless I am greatly misunderstanding you, you can do exactly that in the RG.

Have you experimented with all the options in the RG?

If I understand what you are attempting, I have in the past done exactly what you are talking about. Yes, you will have to paste one of the reports into one column, and another into a second column, but that is only a few second's work.

tfjern
12-18-2009, 12:34 AM
Adelphos, apparently there is a misunderstanding of some kind.

Briefly, again, a word list generated in the WLM, as you know, consists of all the words in a particular version. In BGT, for example, it would include all the Greeks words in LXX/NT. In BGM, it would include all the words (as dictionary forms). Obviously, BGT includes many more words. Then how can these two columns be merged / matched? The key word is matched, not mixed, joined, combined, etc. All Greek words should be matched with their dictionary forms, hence the need for two columns, or separated by tabs, or whatever.

Therefore, (sigh) what I need is a list of all the Greek words in e.g. BGT (first column) and their dictionary forms (second column) -- in the same row. That would involve a repetition of many dictionary forms, but that is what I need, pure and simple. I don't know how I could express this more clearly.

Dale A. Brueggemann
12-18-2009, 02:39 AM
If I'm preparing a study or sermon and I know someone else has done a sermon or study on the same passage or topic, I won't look at their work until I'm pretty much finished with my own.

A good idea, so we don't just end up repeating each other and becoming habitual virtual plagiarists to boot. Besides, sermon preparation is feeding time for the preacher too.

tfjern
12-18-2009, 04:17 AM
Why don't you take your non-BibleWorks discussion somewhere else? A little respect for forum etiquette, please.

Dale A. Brueggemann
12-18-2009, 04:30 AM
Why don't you take your non-BibleWorks discussion somewhere else? A little respect for forum etiquette, please.

Sorry. Bad form on my part.

bkMitchell
12-18-2009, 09:18 AM
Hey tfjern,

I am pretty sure that Adelphos understood you notice he states:

Yes, you will have to paste one of the reports into one column, and another into a second column, but that is only a few second's work.

So, basically the answer to your question is: No.
Currently there is no way export directly into a two column format all the Greek vocabulary of a selected text with English glosses.

What Adelphos has suggested will work, but you'll have to arrange and match the columns yourself.

tfjern
12-18-2009, 09:18 AM
Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Thanks. It would be nice to be able to generate a word list of a particular Greek version(s) done the two-columned way you have so kindly illustrated, above.

B. Taylor has published a similar compilation but only for LXX vocabulary ("An Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint," 2nd ed.). I know, some may question the wisdom of going through all this trouble ("just hover your cursor over the Greek words to get all the lexicon information you could possibly want"), but it would be nice to be able to compile a personal lexicon, say in an MS Excel spreadsheet, with updated definitions, and the like. And yes, there is a need for the first column, for reasons I won't go into here.

Such a feature / option in WLM is not available yet in BibleWorks 8.0, apparently. A tweaking of WLM would be all that is needed to include this option. Maybe some day it will be, if enough people ask for it, but I won't hold my breath.

bkMitchell
12-18-2009, 09:24 AM
Such a feature / option in WLM is not available yet in BibleWorks 8.0, apparently. A tweaking of WLM would be all that is needed to include this option. Maybe some day it will be, if enough people ask for it, but I won't hold my breath.

So, then let's start asking! I'd like a feature like that, too.

Adelphos
12-18-2009, 02:15 PM
Maybe I'm still not understanding, but the following is a screen shot of a two-column analysis from the Report Generator with Ephesians 1:1 as the range. Note: I have simply used the KJV SCR as my Biblical text and Analysis text respectively, and the ONLY box I have checked is Include Morphological Analysis.

Also note that I had to copy/paste NOTHING at all --

http://www.lamblion.net/image_dump/two_column_morph.jpg

MGVH
12-18-2009, 03:20 PM
Report generator is way to go...
It may take some time, but you can set your range to the whole Bible. (I just used Mark 1.1-16 as a trial.)
Don't include any lexicons. Don't include any Biblical Text.
ONLY check "Global Lemma Usage Summary (Grk)"
See the graphic below.
The file generated is also shown. Not the two column deal, but this is well-organized for what you seem to want.

bkMitchell
12-18-2009, 08:25 PM
...Note: I have simply used the KJV SCR as my Biblical text and Analysis text respectively, and the ONLY box I have checked is Include Morphological Analysis.
Also note that I had to copy/paste NOTHING at all --

Well, I stand corrected! This does appear to be what tfjern was requesting. It's two columned and it has both the dictionary forms and textual forms with analysis. Only, one box to check to. So, it's simple enough.


P.S.
The KJV & SCR respectably are a good choice, and a much better choice than others that could have been made. Historically, it does reflect how Christians have been understanding the text.

tfjern
12-18-2009, 09:12 PM
Report Generator does NOT produce two columns, as is obvious from the screenshot. Of course, using a macro in MS Word or the like one could fiddle with the Report Generated data (been there, done that), but why suffer this time-consuming tediousness?

As I said before, Mike could easily tweak WLM to generate two columns for irritating people like myself who could use such a "print-out."

Adelphos
12-18-2009, 09:26 PM
Report Generator does NOT produce two columns, as is obvious from the screenshot.

Do you wear glasses? Do you have them on???

tfjern
12-18-2009, 10:42 PM
The suggestion made by MGVH worked relatively well for Jud - Rev, though it took some time. I'll give it a try for Gen - Rev in BGT (LXX/NT). We'll see if BibleWorks can handle such a heavy output.

Adelphos
12-18-2009, 11:02 PM
Well, I was just replying to your assertion that there weren't two columns, when there plainly are two columns.

If you simply want a list of ALL the Greek words in BGT in one column, and a second column with the lexical form, that would entail a great deal of work, as I see it. Every time the word O (masc article) occurred in ANY of its forms, they would have to be accounted for, and then the lexical "O" for each of those forms would have to be listed to the right of it, and so on for all the forms in the BGT.

In fact, the Report Generator does this extremely well for a selected range, and it breaks it down verse by verse, which you apparently don't care about.

I just don't know how complicated your request would be from a programming standpoint, but it sounds like it could be a bear.

tfjern
12-19-2009, 01:17 AM
Well, it took almost two hours (on a computer with a lot of power), but with the Report Generator, using BGT and the options as MGVT's suggested, a usable output was generated. The next step will be to add / affix the lemmas to each Greek word, which can be done via a macro. Bobvenem, where do you get this 30 seconds?

Below is a sample (just one lemma) of what I need for the entire list of all Greek words in BGT (five columns, yes, we can see that), but which can't be done YET in BibleWorks (of the entire version, that is):

1. ἁγναί annfpn 1 ἁγνός
2. ἁγνά ananpn 1 ἁγνός
3. ἁγνά annnpn 3 ἁγνός
4. ἁγνάς anafpn 2 ἁγνός
5. ἁγνή annfsn 2 ἁγνός

etc.

However, some of the lemmas include other Greeks words, obviously a bug or BibleWorks limitation. E.g.,

BGM Usage summary for LEMMA ἀγαθός (all codes):

1. ἄριστος annmss (adjective normal nominative masculine singular superlative ) 1
2. ἀγαθαί annfpn (adjective normal nominative feminine plural no degree ) 3
3. ἀγαθά ananpn (adjective normal accusative neuter plural no degree ) 99
etc.
29. ἀγαθώτερος annmsc (adjective normal nominative masculine singular comparative ) 1
30. ἀρίστων angmps (adjective normal genitive masculine plural superlative ) 1
31. βελτίους anafpc (adjective normal accusative feminine plural comparative ) 1
32. βελτίους annmpc (adjective normal nominative masculine plural comparative ) 2
etc.
42. βέλτιστα ananps (adjective normal accusative neuter plural superlative ) 2
43. κρατίστας anafps (adjective normal accusative feminine plural superlative ) 1
44. κρατίσταις andfps (adjective normal dative feminine plural superlative ) 1

Michael Hanel
12-19-2009, 10:01 AM
However, some of the lemmas include other Greeks words, obviously a bug or BibleWorks limitation. E.g.,



Lemmas are standard dictionary entry words. BibleWorks tags texts by giving lemmas. Those different words are all from the same lemma. Just like in English you don't properly look up "better" under "better" you look it up under "good". In other words, you're calling it a bug or error when it's a misunderstanding on your part of what you're getting I think. I wouldn't consider it a bug at all, it's exactly what it's supposed to be. Those words are all from the same lemma.

tfjern
12-19-2009, 11:59 AM
In B. Taylor's "Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint," κρατίστας is in the κρείσσων entry (and 5309 in the LEH Lexicon), though it is, as you said, the comp. of ἀγαθός. This is true for the others, though I wish BibleWorks had followed LEH.

Maybe this isn't a bug either: when generating a report for BGT Gen - Rev, many of the lemma entries (e.g., ἄγω) are repeated (and the resulting file if saved as RTF is almost 40 megabytes!). Maybe there a pattern here, too, one that I am missing. Or it could be because the task was too large for BibleWorks to handle. As I said above, it took almost two hours to generate.

Adelphos
12-19-2009, 12:07 PM
Well, I'll give you my two cents and then leave it there. At least we've shown some of the capabilities of the RG in this thread.

And perhaps Mike will add a new feature(s) to the RG based on this discussion, however, I'm not sure he really needs to, as the RG is already a very powerful tool. In any case...

If you're trying to learn Greek, then compartmentalizing is far and away the best path to choose. Thus, you take a single book of the Bible, such as Colossians, or what-have-you, and then have the RG produce whatever format you have assigned in the RG options, then you master the words for that book. And so on.

I don't know if learning Greek is your motivation for this, but if it is, this is INFINITELY better than trying to learn an alphabetized list of the entire BGT.

Michael Hanel
12-19-2009, 12:09 PM
In B. Taylor's "Analytical Lexicon to the Septuagint," κρατίστας is in the κρείσσων entry (and 5309 in the LEH Lexicon), though it is, as you said, the comp. of ἀγαθός. This is true for the others, though I wish BibleWorks had followed LEH.

Well right, you can also find more elementary lexica that have irregular verb entries as their own line in the lexicon, but again they properly belong under "default" dictionary form which has come to be the pres. indic. act. 1 sg. form. It is a matter of convention to be sure, but I don't think BibleWorks is unusual here, but I don't have all the other Bible programs to compare with.


Maybe this isn't a bug either: when generating a report for BGT Gen - Rev, many of the lemma entries (e.g., ἄγω) are repeated (and the resulting file if saved as RTF is almost 40 megabytes!). Maybe there a pattern here, too, one that I am missing. Or it could be because the task was too large for BibleWorks to handle. As I said above, it took almost two hours to generate.


I think the problem comes down to the fact that BibleWorks is not equipped to do exactly what you wanted it to do. What this report generator is doing is a way to get to what you want, but it's not totally what you're looking for. In essence BibleWorks is exporting a load of data, so it is going to take time. As you pointed out, this kind of data is enough to fill books, I imagine it would take a bit of time.

Precha1
12-19-2009, 04:26 PM
If you're trying to learn Greek, then compartmentalizing is far and away the best path to choose. Thus, you take a single book of the Bible, such as Colossians, or what-have-you, and then have the RG produce whatever format you have assigned in the RG options, then you master the words for that book. And so on.

This is a great suggestion for learning Greek or Hebrew particularly when used with the flash card module with the vocabulary limited to a particular book and / or chapters.

I must admit, I had not thought about using the RG in this way. Thanks.

Greg Ward
12-20-2009, 05:54 PM
This whole discussion sounds like BW should invent the "do what I'm thinking" key. One click of the keyboard, and presto, the program executes the command I'm thinking. (This is an advancement over the "do what I say" key.) :)
Oh how many times I've sat in front of a program looking for the key....:D

tfjern
12-20-2009, 07:06 PM
To repeat my original and extremely simple request: it would be nice to be able to export a file containing all the Greek words in BGT, with their lemmas attached (which would obviously include duplicates) in two columns.

Further posts on this thread would be beating a dead horse. This option is not present in BibleWorks, maybe someday it will. It's time to move on to other more fruitful threads.

No "do what I'm thinking" here, whatever that is supposed to mean (and please, don't explain).

Greg Ward
01-12-2010, 05:51 PM
tjfern,
Is what you want a print version of an analytical lexicon? There are number of them out there. BW does have Fridberg's NT Analytical Lexicon. Open the Lexicon Browser and look at it there.

tfjern
01-16-2010, 07:41 AM
:eek: Holy Moses! They have actually produced analytical lexicons -- in print? Well, you learn something new every day. Now I can finally throw away all my electronic lexicons. And BW8 has Friberg's NT Analytical Lexicon? How could I have missed that, too? Embarrassing!

I have fiddled around and found a way, albeit a little laborious, to get BW8 to produce a three-column file (Lemma, Parsing, and Greek form) that can be dumped into an Excel spreadsheet. Very useful for Greek study -- OBVIOUSLY!