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11-18-2009, 01:42 PM
This a thread for Iriving or anyone else who wants to give a few examples of gematria.

ISalzman
11-18-2009, 02:00 PM
This a thread for Iriving or anyone else who wants to give a few examples of gematria.

Thanks Scott. I'll have to think about this one and get back to you on it later. Word play on names would be the easier question.

jimofbentley
11-18-2009, 09:50 PM
Although I personally have no great interest in Gematria, there is an interesting article in wikipedia which gives an overview of what it is, means, and its purpose.

It also provides a large number of reference works, further reading, and other websites.

As I said, I have no great interest in the topic, but if others do, this might be a place to start.

Sansom48
11-19-2009, 10:34 AM
I read the article on gematria from Wikipedia. Even though there are plenty of sources mentioned I think I have an immediate reaction to not trust Wikipedia. Anyway, Isalzman, brought up the point of David, and the genealogies in Matthew, I found this very interesting, but accepting the article as honest, how do we know that, how do we know which method was used, I know that there was the "Absolute Value" method that was discussed, is that the one. It sounded as if there were so many different forms and ways to get these numbers that the possibilities for making a word a certain number are endless. I may be misunderstanding, I have never read much into this topic so I don't know much.

11-19-2009, 11:20 AM
Anyway, Isalzman, brought up the point of David, and the genealogies in Matthew, I found this very interesting...

This is why I brought up the thread. I found that particular scheme somewhat interesting.

It sounded as if there were so many different forms and ways to get these numbers that the possibilities for making a word a certain number are endless. I may be misunderstanding, I have never read much into this topic so I don't know much.

This is why gematria cannot be trusted. You can come up with almost anything you want to come up with.

Better to stick with the plain meaning of the Scripture and let the Holy Spirit be the teacher. As Spurgeon correctly stated --

"He has learned nothing aright who has not been under the direct tuition of the Holy Ghost." C. H. Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol XXX, Receiving The Holy Ghost

MWMiles
11-22-2009, 09:21 PM
Thanks Scott. I'll have to think about this one and get back to you on it later. Word play on names would be the easier question.

Word play on names is a good way to give an example of gematria.

In Genesis 17:5 Father changes Abram's name from Abram to Abraham. In Genesis 17:15 Father changed Sarai's name to Sarah. What happened here? Both of these people had an He added to their names. In gematria He is 5, it being the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Five in gematria signifies grace. So Father added unmerited favor or grace to Abraham and Sarah and HE signified it by changing their names.

There are LOTS of examples of gematria in the Bible, just as many Hebrew acrostics have deeper meanings.

If you are interested in Biblical gematria, then a couple of good books to read are Number in Scripture by E.W. Bullinger and Biblical Mathematics by Ed. F. Vallowe.

This is a VERY interesting aspect of Bible studies and if Father uses gematria then it might be a good idea to pay attention to it.

bobvenem
11-23-2009, 10:17 AM
Aside from an arbitrary assignment, how did "five" become "grace?" Is it because "five" means "grace," or is it because in this instance where the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is added to Abram and Sarai it commemorated an act of grace on the Lord's part?

More broadly, does the symbol simply commemorate the thing being signified, or does it actually add to the thing? To the extent that it is the former, to that extent gematria appears worthwhile. Beyond that, I fear it become magic.

Joshua Luna
11-23-2009, 01:50 PM
And when did He become Five? And what of different alphabetic sequences found in the Bible?

MWMiles
11-23-2009, 05:11 PM
The number 5 was assigned the meaning "grace" by Father.

Just as the number 18 was assigned the meaning "bondage" and the number 40 was assigned the meaning "probation", and the number 17 was assigned the meaning "victory".

I'm not here trying to prove anything to anybody. You can choose to ignore these pearls all day long if you wish to. I choose not to ignore them and in return I am blessed.

Numbers have spiritual assignments. Just as "left" and "right" have spiritual assignments. Why do you think that Jesus told His disciples to fish out of the right side of the boat? Do you think that Father is obtuse to there being left-wing minded people and right-wing minded people?

Mike

11-23-2009, 05:29 PM
In Genesis 17:5 Father changes Abram's name from Abram to Abraham. In Genesis 17:15 Father changed Sarai's name to Sarah. What happened here? Both of these people had an He added to their names. In gematria He is 5, it being the fifth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Five in gematria signifies grace. So Father added unmerited favor or grace to Abraham and Sarah and HE signified it by changing their names.

Actually, it wasn't the Father who added the Hey, but the Pre-Incarnate Christ, the Eternal Word, who upholds all things by the word of his power, and who holds all power in heaven and earth. The New Testament makes it vividly clear that it is Jesus Christ who is primarily acting in the Old Testament, and who goes by the name Jehovah therein. John 12:37-41, ad infinitum.

Sansom48
11-23-2009, 11:23 PM
The number 5 was assigned the meaning "grace" by Father.

Just as the number 18 was assigned the meaning "bondage" and the number 40 was assigned the meaning "probation", and the number 17 was assigned the meaning "victory".

I'm not here trying to prove anything to anybody. You can choose to ignore these pearls all day long if you wish to. I choose not to ignore them and in return I am blessed.

Numbers have spiritual assignments. Just as "left" and "right" have spiritual assignments. Why do you think that Jesus told His disciples to fish out of the right side of the boat? Do you think that Father is obtuse to there being left-wing minded people and right-wing minded people?

Mike

I do not believe there is any doubt that numbers are significant in the Bible. However, I am just trying to understand the methodology and the reasoning behind it. I mean, why does the "he" stand for grace? is there a certain gematria system being used in this case? which one, and why is it better than the others? I know nothing of this and I am just trying to understand it.

jimofbentley
11-24-2009, 05:52 AM
Why do you think that Jesus told His disciples to fish out of the right side of the boat? Do you think that Father is obtuse to there being left-wing minded people and right-wing minded people?

Mike

Mike, surely you are not suggesting that because Jesus told the disciples to fish on the "right side of the boat" that Jesus was implying that we should only proclaim the Gospel to those on the political right? :eek:

Then again, if they are on "the right" then that means that they are not "in the boat". And in order for them to get "in the boat" they have to leave "the right" and be brought more to "the left" - but not to far to the "left" for then they would be out of the boat on the other side. Could this be a secret message from Jesus to warn us against the political and religious right? (I hope my mother doesn't read this!) :D

Of course, because there was nobody on the "left" of the boat, would this imply that everyone is to the "right" of Jesus and we all must turn drastically to the "left" in order to be "in the boat"?

Isn't it just easier to think that Jesus told them to put their nets on the right side of the boat because that is where the fish were, without trying to discover a "hidden meaning" within it?

This all reminds me of the speculations which have been made about the meaning of the 153 fish caught by the disciples (John 21:11). ;)

bobvenem
11-24-2009, 07:13 AM
To say nothing of left-handed people. Like Ehud, we are a tricksy lot.:cool:

But seriously...meaning was assigned to the numbers by divine fiat? I pal around with a group who think Bullinger's interpretive method is just short of divinely inspired. The problem is every name, number and place has a "spiritual" meaning which must be included in their expositions.

But when is a fish just a fish?

MWMiles
11-24-2009, 07:31 AM
Mike, surely you are not suggesting that because Jesus told the disciples to fish on the "right side of the boat" that Jesus was implying that we should only proclaim the Gospel to those on the political right? :eek:

Then again, if they are on "the right" then that means that they are not "in the boat". And in order for them to get "in the boat" they have to leave "the right" and be brought more to "the left" - but not to far to the "left" for then they would be out of the boat on the other side. Could this be a secret message from Jesus to warn us against the political and religious right? (I hope my mother doesn't read this!) :D

Of course, because there was nobody on the "left" of the boat, would this imply that everyone is to the "right" of Jesus and we all must turn drastically to the "left" in order to be "in the boat"?

Isn't it just easier to think that Jesus told them to put their nets on the right side of the boat because that is where the fish were, without trying to discover a "hidden meaning" within it?

This all reminds me of the speculations which have been made about the meaning of the 153 fish caught by the disciples (John 21:11). ;)

Let's just say the fishing is better on the right side of the boat.

MWMiles
11-24-2009, 07:44 AM
To say nothing of left-handed people. Like Ehud, we are a tricksy lot.:cool:

But seriously...meaning was assigned to the numbers by divine fiat? I pal around with a group who think Bullinger's interpretive method is just short of divinely inspired. The problem is every name, number and place has a "spiritual" meaning which must be included in their expositions.

But when is a fish just a fish?

Bob, if you choose to think that there is no spritiual significance to numbers then you go on right ahead and do that. I'll even fight for your right to think any way that you want to as we live in a country that guarantees that freedom. We can still be friends if you can't see this. So you go on and think any way you want to about it and it's all good here. I'm 100% behind you being allowed to think anything you want to. Have at it.

MWMiles
11-24-2009, 08:02 AM
I do not believe there is any doubt that numbers are significant in the Bible. However, I am just trying to understand the methodology and the reasoning behind it. I mean, why does the "he" stand for grace? is there a certain gematria system being used in this case? which one, and why is it better than the others? I know nothing of this and I am just trying to understand it.

It's good, Chris, that you pointed out that there are different gematria systems. The one IN THE WORD is the one that you'd want to follow.

I found out about this by asking about it in prayer, keeping in mind Proverbs 1:7: The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Everything that I have picked up of any spiritual significance was showed to me by keeping Father in the equation. A man is not going to be able to open anyone's eyes to spiritual things. So pray about your desire to have this knowledge and to KNOW that it is factual to Him. Then go do your homework, keeping Him in the equation.

I know that you don't do this, but some people go into Bible study like they are dissecting a frog. They cut into it and they see all of the parts and that is the entire depth of their understanding. And that's all they're getting - because they left Him out of the equation.

I can sense that you already know that something is up with numbers. If you seek out this information prayerfully, I can guarantee that you'll get the picture.

And stay away from gematria systems that are not in the Word. There is a lot of negative information out there. The Kabbalah is not something that I'd consider being on the side of Light, but rather darkness.

If I can be of any other assistance, just PM me.

I might add that if you commence studies about this you'll come to find that 4 has the meaning of the earth, that 6 stands for man's sin and Satan's sin, 7 stands for spiritual completeness, 8 means new beginnings and so on. It is very interesting and I hope that you are blessed by studying it.

Mike

MWMiles
11-24-2009, 08:06 AM
Actually, it wasn't the Father who added the Hey, but the Pre-Incarnate Christ, the Eternal Word, who upholds all things by the word of his power, and who holds all power in heaven and earth. The New Testament makes it vividly clear that it is Jesus Christ who is primarily acting in the Old Testament, and who goes by the name Jehovah therein. John 12:37-41, ad infinitum.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

MWMiles
11-24-2009, 08:19 AM
And with that I end my participation in the discussion here on gematria.

It was indeed fun and interesting.

Mike

11-24-2009, 08:45 AM
I do not believe there is any doubt that numbers are significant in the Bible. However, I am just trying to understand the methodology and the reasoning behind it. I mean, why does the "he" stand for grace? is there a certain gematria system being used in this case? which one, and why is it better than the others? I know nothing of this and I am just trying to understand it.

The book by Bullinger, previously mentioned, is okay, but there is a better one, IMO, entitled Seeing Christ In The Tabernacle, by Ervin N. Hershberger.

I'm not sure it's still in print, but it is well worth having if you can get it, as it deals not only with numbers, but with the precious metals, stones, and so forth.

In any case, here is a list taken from page 13 of this book --

One = Unity
Two = Fellowship
Three = Trinity
Four = Earth
Five = Grace
Six = Man
Seven = Perfection
Eight = New Beginning
Nine = Spirit Fruit
Ten = Completeness
Eleven = Judgment
Twelve = Earthy government
Forty = Testing
Fifty = Year of Jubilee

You'd have to read the book to understand how the numbers are derived, but suffice it to say that no matter how you slice it, any numerical system is going to be subjective.

By subjective, that does not necessarily imply that it is incorrect, but that it is simply subjective, and indeed, much of the significance of the numbers can be taken directly from the Scritpure in many cases.

But as I stated at the outset, the only way to truly understand the Word of God, including any potential numerical significance, is by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. To quote Spurgeon once again --

"To be taught of the minister is nothing, but to be taught of the Lord is everything. It is only the Spirit of God who can engrave the truth upon the fleshy tablets of the heart... He that professes to be a believer, while he has never received the truth in the power of it, as sent home by the Spirit of light and fire, has need to begin again, and learn the first rudiments of the faith. He has learned nothing aright who has not been under the direct tuition of the Holy Ghost." C. H. Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol XXX, Receiving The Holy Ghost

11-24-2009, 11:16 AM
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

It doesn't say that the everlasting Father was born, but that he who was born shall be called the everlasting Father, for God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, and in Jesus Christ all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily, which, by the way, would be impossible were Jesus not an infinite being in his own right.

There are so many NT decrees about Jesus Christ being the main actor in the OT that it really boggles the mind as to how anyone could ever deny his deity. For example, in addition to the apostle John attributing Isaiah 6 directly to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit through the author of the book of Hebrews also attributes NUMEROUS Psalms to Jesus Christ, such as this one --

"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end." Psalm 102:25

Throughout the NT such declarations are made, showing that Jesus Christ is the main actor in the OT, and in addition to that, we have several indications where Jesus testifies of himself in the same manner, such as John 8:58, and so on.

In short, he who walked with Adam in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the day is he who walked across the Sea of Galilee some four thousand years later, and who walked the line bearing his own cross, and who rose from the dead bodily, and to whom all power in heaven and earth belongs.

bobvenem
11-25-2009, 05:59 AM
But the question remains: Is the meaning inherent in the object, or does the object acquire meaning through specific usage?

For example, in most studies of the Tabernacle, silver is said to stand for redemption. Is this because silver has been divinely imbued with redemptive meaning (or, as some suggest, power), or is it because silver was used as money for purchasing items, including people?

With all due respect to Mr. Miles, it's not a question of belief (even a cursory reading of the visionary portions of the Bible show numbers and objects have, within the vision's context, a meaning beyond the literal). My problem is with the assumption that meaning has been arbitrarily assigned by God, without any reference point for man to understand it.

The Holy Spirit illuminates so man can understand God's truth. However, without a shared frame of reference, that illumination would be both highly subjective (i.e., mine alone) and utterly incommunicable (i.e., I could not share that information with others in obedience to the Great Commission).

Consequently, a fish is just a fish, except when it isn't, at which point we should have a commonly held clue as to what it is. Without such an objective base, saving knowledge through the work of God's Spirit would become impossible.

On a separate note, how about them Vikings?

Michael Hanel
11-25-2009, 08:29 AM
Consequently, a fish is just a fish, except when it isn't, at which point we should have a commonly held clue as to what it is. Without such an objective base, saving knowledge through the work of God's Spirit would become impossible.

On a separate note, how about them Vikings?

Point one. I think that's really the point. I'll even grant that numbers can have that symbolism, but it's still another jump from that to saying that letters for numbers come to be the same thing, and still another jump to saying that that understanding is the magic key that brings understanding to such and such or even all passages.

Point two. The only thing better than the Vikings success is that it comes at the expense of the Packers. :D

11-25-2009, 10:00 AM
Numerology can quickly turn from being a holy endeavor to an unholy endeavor, which is why, generally speaking, it should be avoided.

However, we must pay particular attention to those things that have been revealed. For example, the number 17 is a significant number in scripture because God has ordered it so. Just go through the Scriptures and see what events have fallen on the 17th day.

But that, of course, is entirely different than trying to conjure up a meaning based on a numerical sequence.

In other words, following a number like 17 through the Scripture and nothing its significance can be a holy endeavor. Trying to conjure the meaning of various words and passages based on a numerical pattern is more akin to sorcery and witchcraft than to biblical exegesis.

bobvenem
11-25-2009, 12:28 PM
Thanks to both of you. To take it a step further, I am bothered by those who take an item (the number 17, say), follow and note the appearances in Scripture, draw a reasonable conclusion from that, and THEN apply that conclusion to every appearance of "17" (sort of an illegitimate totality transfer applied to symbols, if that makes sense).

Making "three" always mean "God" (for another example) is, at best, bad hermeneutics, but, sadly, it happens quite often in some circles.

P.S. The game in Green Bay was SWEEEEEET!

11-25-2009, 01:53 PM
I am bothered by those who take an item (the number 17, say), follow and note the appearances in Scripture, draw a reasonable conclusion from that, and THEN apply that conclusion to every appearance of "17" (sort of an illegitimate totality transfer applied to symbols, if that makes sense).

Just as real estate is LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION, so is exegesis CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

bobvenem
11-25-2009, 03:03 PM
Truer word was never spoken. :cool:

BigJayOneill
11-25-2009, 06:00 PM
Gematria may be the stuffing; but solid hermeneutics should be the turkey! :)

In my view, a valid Gematria must be consistent with "clear" doctrines/ contexts. (I do not think that it should be utilized in order to establish a "new" concept or to change the plain meaning of a Text).

A Gematria concerning the power of repentance/ Yom Kippur, which limits the slanderous work of Satan:

Midrash Rabbah - Numbers XVIII:21
The numerical value of hassatan (Satan) is three hundred and sixty-four, -njvh = 5 + 300 + 9 + 50 == 364- corresponding to the number of days in the year (364) during which he has the power of slandering Israel, the Day of Atonement being excepted.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

11-25-2009, 08:19 PM
The numerical value of hassatan (Satan) is three hundred and sixty-four, -njvh = 5 + 300 + 9 + 50 == 364- corresponding to the number of days in the year (364) during which he has the power of slandering Israel, the Day of Atonement being excepted.

Now I see how this works!!!

Okay, I was born on the 13th. But it was also on a Friday, which is the 6th day. Thus, when you subtract 6 from 13, you get 7, the number of perfection.

I always KNEW I was perfect!

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes... gematria ROCKS!!!

bobvenem
11-25-2009, 11:11 PM
This has become 2 much 4 1 man 2 handle.

Happy Thanksgiving!

MWMiles
11-26-2009, 12:27 PM
Happy Thanksgiving to you all!

Mike

הוֹד֣וּ לַיהוָ֣ה כִּי־ט֑וֹב כִּ֖י לְעוֹלָ֣ם חַסְדּֽוֹ׃
(Psa 118:1 WTT)

MWMiles
12-28-2009, 05:42 PM
Since I have a very difficult time explaining the spiritual side of numbers in scripture, it appears, I thought that since Bullinger's work is in the public domain that I'd share a PDF file or two of it here for those that are interested.

Bullinger's work on Figures of Speech Used in the Bible is another good study resource by this scholar.

Here are links to two different PDF files for Numbers in Scripture:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jqwqljnceam/E.W.Bullinger -Number in scripture.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/jqwqljnceam/E.W.Bullinger%20-Number%20in%20scripture.pdf)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/unnlmdw2kmj/Number in Scripture.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/unnlmdw2kmj/Number%20in%20Scripture.pdf)

I want to apologize to Bob and anyone else that I may have been short with here. I don't have any excuse outside of being old and frazzled. :(

I hope that someone gets some enlightenment from this material in conjunction with their studies of the Word.

12-28-2009, 06:33 PM
Thanks for the links, Mike. I have the printed edition of Bullinger, but it's always nice to have the electronic edition for search puposes.

Precha1
12-29-2009, 06:52 AM
Thanks for the links, Mike. I have the printed edition of Bullinger, but it's always nice to have the electronic edition for search puposes.

I echo the thanks to Mike.

Adelphos, would you give me instructions as to how to search this pdf document? Do you have it saved in BW 8 or else where? I am clueless. Thanks.

bkMitchell
12-29-2009, 07:46 AM
Here is another interesting book on the subject published by Baker House:

Biblical Numerology: A Basic Study of the Use of Numbers in the Bible ISBN: 0801028132

12-29-2009, 10:59 AM
I echo the thanks to Mike.

Adelphos, would you give me instructions as to how to search this pdf document? Do you have it saved in BW 8 or else where? I am clueless. Thanks.

You save the pdf file into whatever folder you want. Then you open the pdf in Acrobat, then you choose Edit | Search or Shift-Ctrl-F and type in your search criteria.

Precha1
12-29-2009, 05:13 PM
You save the pdf file into whatever folder you want. Then you open the pdf in Acrobat, then you choose Edit | Search or Shift-Ctrl-F and type in your search criteria.

Thank you. What I learn via the forums is truly amazing and unlike any other forum I've ever participated in.

bobvenem
12-29-2009, 06:18 PM
No offence taken at all, Mr. Miles. Thanks for the link to Bullinger.