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ISalzman
11-06-2009, 05:24 PM
In my BW8 installation, Genesis 18:6 is missing in TNK. I just wanted to verify that I wasn't the only one experiencing this phenomenon. Grateful for any feedback. Thanks.

Adelphos
11-06-2009, 05:59 PM
In my BW8 installation, Genesis 18:6 is missing in TNK. I just wanted to verify that I wasn't the only one experiencing this phenomenon. Grateful for any feedback. Thanks.

It's mapped to the previous verse.

ISalzman
11-06-2009, 07:13 PM
It's mapped to the previous verse.

Alas, you are right in what you've pointed out. But it is mapped incorrectly in BW then. I checked my hardback print edition of the TNK (1985 JPS Tanakh) and, sure enough, their versification follows the MT exactly. BibleWorks TNK database shows nothing for Gen 18:6. While the content of the verse may have inadvertently been appended to Gen 18:5 in BW, this is in error. It would be good if this could be corrected in a future update patch.

Mark Eddy
11-06-2009, 09:03 PM
This is the sort of database error which needs to be reported to BW directly, not just to this forum. So I have reported it to them. Technically speaking it is not a verse "mapping" problem but a verse division problem. Somehow the electronic text of TNK which BW received failed to separate Gen 18:6 from verse 5.
Mark Eddy

ISalzman
11-06-2009, 09:29 PM
This is the sort of database error which needs to be reported to BW directly, not just to this forum. So I have reported it to them. Technically speaking it is not a verse "mapping" problem but a verse division problem. Somehow the electronic text of TNK which BW received failed to separate Gen 18:6 from verse 5.
Mark Eddy

Thanks Mark. I actually did fill out a web-based support request at the BibleWorks Support page. (But isn't there a separate place where users are encouraged to send in and note database errors? Somehow I thought there was a dedicated web submission form to report database errors.) Anyway, after I submitted the support request, I wondered if maybe the glitch was unique to me. That's when I decided to post on the forum to see if other BW users were also experiencing the same phenomenon (= Gen 18:6 missing in TNK). I think the correction needs to be made to the TNK database. Not that I'm a programmer, but I can't imagine that it would be too difficult a task to go in, make the change, and properly render Gen 18:6. Am I wrong here?

ISalzman
11-06-2009, 09:49 PM
PS - I just found, reading in one of Ed's posts in the FAQ section of the forum, that users should report database errors to the following e-mail address: dberrors@bibleworks.com. I will assume that my support form on the BW Support page will have sufficiently registered the database error with the BW tech team. But in the future, I will report any errors using the dedicated e-mail address provided above.

Mark Eddy
11-06-2009, 11:19 PM
Thanks Mark. I actually did fill out a web-based support request at the BibleWorks Support page. (But isn't there a separate place where users are encouraged to send in and note database errors? Somehow I thought there was a dedicated web submission form to report database errors.) ... I think the correction needs to be made to the TNK database. Not that I'm a programmer, but I can't imagine that it would be too difficult a task to go in, make the change, and properly render Gen 18:6. Am I wrong here?
The change would take about 10 seconds to make. I don't know how much it costs for all the BW users to download the patches. Sometimes the programmers save up lists of database corrections and make them all at once, so that we aren't updating databases every few days. But sometimes they correct individual errors and get them up right away.
I did report this to the dberrors@bibleworks.com e-mail address. So we'll see which sort of correction this one is. I am sure that it will be corrected sometime.
Mark Eddy

ISalzman
11-07-2009, 05:58 AM
The change would take about 10 seconds to make. I don't know how much it costs for all the BW users to download the patches. Sometimes the programmers save up lists of database corrections and make them all at once, so that we aren't updating databases every few days. But sometimes they correct individual errors and get them up right away.
I did report this to the dberrors@bibleworks.com e-mail address. So we'll see which sort of correction this one is. I am sure that it will be corrected sometime.
Mark Eddy

Thanks Mark. In my opinion, TNK is one of the more substantial OT versions, so hopefully, the correction will come soon.

MBushell
11-07-2009, 12:11 PM
This has been fixed and posted. Also found half a dozen other cases of missing or improperly indexed verses.
Have a blessed Lord's Day,
Mike

Jim Wert
11-07-2009, 06:19 PM
This has been fixed and posted. Also found half a dozen other cases of missing or improperly indexed verses.
Have a blessed Lord's Day,
Mike

I am trying very hard to be as courteous as I can in this entry, but I expect that, because I am addressing what to me is an important flaw in the way BW is maintained, any response I get will be defensive and/or condemning. Please surprise me.

In the two years that I have been following this forum I have noticed that the BW staff consistently say that the way to get issues addressed is by going through the help desk, not mentioning it on this forum. When someone on the forum complains about the quality of BW service, multiple members of the community jump down his throat, and at least one BW staff person submits a statement that being nasty will result in your issue not being addressed quickly. Nevertheless, these squeaky wheels do get addressed immediately. (If you need to refresh your memory, look back at the huge thread on "Why I will not get BibleWorks8", where someone who had had shoddy service from the help desk blew his top, and a bug that the staff didn't believe existed was fixed immediately, with of course the usual rhetoric that this was the way to not get your issue handled.)

Now I am of the persuasion that the squeaky wheel should not get the grease. I very much resent queue jumpers.

So when I discovered that TNK was missing the second half of Gen 2:4, which seemed to me an important thing, since that is the first place that YHWH occurs, I followed the rules. I notified BW of the problem, and told them why I thought it was particularly important. And waited eagerly for the fix. And the fix didn't happen. After about a year I sent a second notification of the error. This time I received an acknowlegement that my report had been received, but no update, so after another month I reported it again, with the comment that I this was the third time I was reporting it.

This time I received an email from Glenn Weaver saying:

"Thank you for sending to us the database error you found in the TNK. I assure you that we will correct this error in the text, but I cannot guarantee when we will be able to do so. Because of the huge amount of databases and program features we have to support, we gather database errors until such a time as we can direct our attention to database errors. Then we work on making all the corrections to that particular database. It is much more efficient for us to make the error corrections in this manner than if we corrected each error as they are made known to us. If we made each correction as it came in, we would be distracted from the other tasks before us, and the entire BibleWorks program would suffer for it.

So, please be patient with us. We will make the necessary corrections. And please keep sending to us any other database errors that you may find. I currently have about 8 total for the TNK version."

That was April 10, 2009. I must admit that I stopped reporting errors; my perception was that BW is not really interested in correcting databases unless a high-profile issue was raised. So I was delighted today to see that TNK was being addressed (in response to a problem with it being discussed in this thread). And Mike said that a number of missing verses were added, so I figured the backlog of TNK errors was no longer a backlog. I applied the updates and eagerly went to look at Gen 2:4 in TNK. The second half is still missing.

I appreciate the way BW keeps improving the program part of their product, though I am disconcerted by the lack of transparency. The fact is that what drives their to-do priorities appears to be the forum, even though they repeatedly say it isn't. Publishing their to-do list would be one way to reassure users that problems they have identified may be addressed.

As a programmer, I realize that it is much more fun to tinker with code than to correct databases. But you may be familiar with the old adage GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out). Which is why it seems to me that correcting known problems with the data bases should be at least as important as enhancing the program's functionality.
Yes, I recognize that BW spent an enormous amount of effort in making the Early Fathers much better. And I appreciate that, even though in my opinion it is a text of secondary importance. But the Focus is on the TEXT. And the error I have identified in the TNK text (even though it is a Jewish translation, it is still scripture to be Focused on) has yet to be addressed.

Despite all that I have said, I spend much more time with BW than my wife thinks I should, and I sing its praises at every opportunity.

Regards,
Jim

ISalzman
11-07-2009, 07:04 PM
This has been fixed and posted. Also found half a dozen other cases of missing or improperly indexed verses.
Have a blessed Lord's Day,
Mike

Thanks so much, Mike, for your and BibleWorks' meticulous attention and responsiveness to your customers. You guys are the best.

ISalzman
11-07-2009, 07:32 PM
And the error I have identified in the TNK text (even though it is a Jewish translation, it is still scripture to be Focused on) has yet to be addressed.

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Jim, I know this has been an emotionally-wrung post for you. While I read your post with great sympathy, I won't enter into the general tenor of the dialogue and issue, since nothing that I have ever experienced from BW could ever lead me to criticize them; I have only ever received sterling service from the company. And I can only rave about their superior product. I can honestly say that, without reservation, BW is the software application that gives me the most delight of any that I've ever used in life. Using BW is nothing short of pure joy and exhilaration because the wonderful bible study that it facilitates is nothing short of the same breathtaking delight. So I can't and won't enter into your criticism at this time, though I might sympathize with what you're feeling right now. (And I guess you've made me feel guilty for presumably being the "squeaky wheel" here. Not that I've in any way intended to vault ahead of you in the queue at all, mind you.)

But I did want to comment on something you said in your post. You qualified and possibly even detracted from the "worth" of the TNK version using the words "though it is a Jewish translation." You are certainly correct in asserting that TNK is a Jewish version. Yes, it is. And no one knows better than I that, in Christological passages and contexts, the TNK is going to follow a certain Jewish bias; namely, that Jesus is not the Messiah. I know that all too well; I have worked in Jewish ministry for 22+ years. When I present Messianic prophecies to Jewish people, I must frequently resort to the original Hebrew to show and prove that the OT does in fact point to Jesus. Many would not know it or see it from their biased versions and translations. It is not always easy having to go to the original Hebrew because, contrary to popular opinion, most Jewish people are illiterate when it comes to Hebrew and the Hebrew bible. But the Messianic shortcomings notwithstanding, the TNK version, in every other context presents itself as a superior English translation of the Hebrew bible. It is surely a phenomenal version and translation. The translation is a very good one. All this to say, the fact that the TNK is a Jewish version does not take away from the excellent quality of its translation in most contexts.

Jim Wert
11-07-2009, 09:51 PM
But I did want to comment on something you said in your post. You qualified and possibly even detracted from the "worth" of the TNK version using the words "though it is a Jewish translation."

I meant no disrespect. The reason I originally reported the one problem was because I value the JPS TNK more than most other translations. The Oxford Jewish Study Bible, which uses the JPS TNK, is my favorite Bible for studying the OT.

--Jim

ISalzman
11-07-2009, 10:37 PM
I meant no disrespect. The reason I originally reported the one problem was because I value the JPS TNK more than most other translations. The Oxford Jewish Study Bible, which uses the JPS TNK, is my favorite Bible for studying the OT.

--Jim

Hey Jim, no disrespect taken and no apology necessary. Honestly. But I so appreciate your humble attitude. Thanks for the sensitivity.

By the way, I too love the Oxford Jewish Study Bible. I think it goes largely unknown, but what a gold mine of a reference, huh? Do you know if it has ever been digitized and made part of any biblical software packages and/or libraries?

acheung
11-08-2009, 04:05 AM
By the way, I too love the Oxford Jewish Study Bible. I think it goes largely unknown, but what a gold mine of a reference, huh? Do you know if it has ever been digitized and made part of any biblical software packages and/or libraries?

The Jewish study bible is available in Accordance, which I used now and then (with a Mac emulator) to consult study bibles like it and the Catholic Study Bible and ESV study bible, etc., when I am too lazy to walk to the shelf to fetch the printed version. I wish BW8 can offer more reference works modules like those. I don't think BW need to have most of the logos resources, but many resources in Accordance seem well suited for BW.

Alex Cheung

Ben Spackman
11-08-2009, 03:49 PM
I've requested Study Bible notes before, particularly the Jewish Study Bible, and been told it's not likely, lying outside BW's purview. (On the other hand, the NET notes and forthcoming ESV notes don't seem to be for some reason.)

If you want it, request it!

MBushell
11-09-2009, 08:26 AM
"I am trying very hard to be as courteous as I can in this entry, but I expect that, because I am addressing what to me is an important flaw in the way BW is maintained, any response I get will be defensive and/or condemning. Please surprise me."

Jim,

The way that BibleWorks support works is very clear. It has been described to you many times and you seem to have a good grasp of the way it works. Our tech support team receives reports and does the best it can to assign priorities and see to it that problems get resolved in order of importance. The Forum is not an official support channel. We have said that many times, as you yourself have pointed out. Given these things I honestly do not understand your complaint. You have been dealt with according to well-established and public procedures. Your gripe seems to be that we occasionally respond to needs expressed indirectly outside of normal channels. What could possibly be wrong with that? "'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' (Mat 20:15 NAS) The logical result of your complaint would be that BibleWorks staff would have no interaction whatesoever with this Forum simply because it it unmonitored and unofficial. Even answering a simple question would be support outside of normal channels. Is that what you want? You say that you don't think that the squeaky wheel should get greased. Is that why you sent the same bug report to Glenn three times? Is that why you are repeating here the same complaint that you have offered before? Hmmmm. The fact of the matter is that Jesus didn't mind sqeaky wheels as long as the squeaking was done respectfully and in the right spirit (Luke 18:5). We don't mind squeaky wheels either as long as it is done in a spirit of humility and with a little compassion. Occasionally we even respond to outright gripes. Sometimes the priorities assigned by the support staff need tweaking. Wheels usually squeak because they need attention.

We have a small staff and mistakes are made. But that doesn't mean that there are "flaws in the way BW is maintained." We can't grease every squeak but we do the best we can. My staff has told me many times that they don't think I should respond to needs expressed in the forums because it encourages people to bypass normal channels. I have never agreed with that. I have felt that as long as the official policy is made very clear, there is nothing wrong with meeting needs occasionally outside of normal channels. It encourages people to use the Forums and functions as one way to say thanks to the many users who unselfishly spend their own time answering questions for newbies. But to be honest all you are doing is giving ammunition to my recalcitrant (but well-loved) staff. Your complaints will not change the way tech support works. The most they will do is force us to forbid staff participation in the Forums. I don't anticipate that but it seems to be what you want.

We will try, dear brother, to get the remaining TNK issues resolved today - not that we are responding to your squeaks or anything like that (smiley emoticon).

Mike

Michael Hanel
11-09-2009, 09:29 AM
It seems to me the heart of Jim's issue is he sent in errors of the TNK that were noted but not immediately fixed, whereas this most recent error was rather quickly resolved. Whether or not he's right to complain, it's easy to see why he did so.

That having been said, I follow other Bible software forums and other non-Bible software forums, and this phenomenon, of having official ways of contact and also having more un-official ways of contact is not unique to BibleWorks. Nor is it unique that requests/complaints on forums get more attention than ones sent via email. I don't think such action requires an apology from BibleWorks or any other company, it's rather normal human psychology (Remember the story of the persistent widow?).

That said (I say a lot I guess?), I still see why Jim can be upset. I can get upset too when I play by the rules and another doesn't and that person seems to get preference (this too is human psychology after all).

bobvenem
11-09-2009, 09:56 AM
If one is adventurous enough, BW allows the user to make his own corrections. It requires turning the "offending" version into a user database, but it is an option.

Which is more than can be said for the competition. :cool:

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 11:11 AM
The Jewish study bible is available in Accordance, which I used now and then (with a Mac emulator) to consult study bibles like it and the Catholic Study Bible and ESV study bible, etc., when I am too lazy to walk to the shelf to fetch the printed version. I wish BW8 can offer more reference works modules like those. I don't think BW need to have most of the logos resources, but many resources in Accordance seem well suited for BW.

Alex Cheung

Thanks Alex. Unfortunately, I don't use Accordance. But I agree with you; tools like the ESV Study Bible and the Oxford Jewish Study Bible would make for excellent resources within BibleWorks.

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 11:34 AM
That said (I say a lot I guess?), I still see why Jim can be upset. I can get upset too when I play by the rules and another doesn't and that person seems to get preference (this too is human psychology after all).

Presumably, Michael, I am the "another" to whom you refer above, since it was my post about TNK missing Gen 18:6 that precipitated the fix. But to set the record straight, even though I have already done so above, I did fill out a support form pointing out the bug. Hence I do play by the rules. It was only after I went through the normal channels and procedures by filling out the support form that I decided to post the problem on the forum to verify that I was not unique in my experience of the missing verse. At any rate, I am very grateful that Mike issued the fix in as timely a manner as he did. And I am also sorry for any angst and frustration that this may have caused. I have nothing but the profoundest respect for Jim with whom I have corresponded on these forums before. And as was obvious in his post, he closed on words that were complimentary to BW. Jim Wert definitely does not fit the profile of an adversarial complainer. And, for Mike's part, he has just offered that the rest of the bugs in TNK will be addressed soon. That was very gracious on his part. Hopefully, God's shalom will have His way in our BibleWorks community and family. Sorry for any part that I might have had in anyone's frustrations as a result of all this.

Michael Hanel
11-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Irving, I don't think Jim was really upset with you nor were my comments specifically addressing this present issue. My comment is more towards his line "Now I am of the persuasion that the squeaky wheel should not get the grease. I very much resent queue jumpers." To which I say, I think everyone resents that, that's pretty normal. Yet squeaky wheels do get the grease. It doesn't negate "the system", but it is how things happen quite often.

Incidentally, after having lived in other places than the midwest (or the United States, actually), I realize that not everyone resents queue jumping; in some places if you actually wait in line and don't push and shove to get to the front, you'll never win out? I've heard one doesn't wait in line for the bus in India, one shoves oneself on the bus or one gets left behind. Fortunately things are a bit more amicable here.

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 11:57 AM
Incidentally, after having lived in other places than the midwest (or the United States, actually), I realize that not everyone resents queue jumping; in some places if you actually wait in line and don't push and shove to get to the front, you'll never win out? I've heard one doesn't wait in line for the bus in India, one shoves oneself on the bus or one gets left behind.

Sounds very much like the NYC metro area here! :)

Michael Hanel
11-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Sounds very much like the NYC metro area here! :)

One way I talk about the difference (which is purely subjective and my own) between midwesterners and the folks on the east coast is that midwesterners are passive-aggressive, but east coasters are aggressive-aggressive. However, this phenomenon usually also seems to function to a similar degree between rural and urban (i.e. Chicago is in the midwest, but functions closer to New York than it does to Any City, Illinois.

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 12:13 PM
One way I talk about the difference (which is purely subjective and my own) between midwesterners and the folks on the east coast is that midwesterners are passive-aggressive, but east coasters are aggressive-aggressive.

Yes. Another way of saying that is that, with New Yorkers (as the prototypical "East Coasters," if you will), what you see is what you get! They're pretty upfront with you. They won't mince words; they'll tell you exactly what they think and feel about you. In other words, they don't pull punches.

By contrast, years ago, I used to travel extensively to different parts of the country to speak in churches. Quite commonly, I was dispatched to the South. In the South, people, at least to your face, are quite refined and genteel. They won't say anything unkind to your face. But, as many southerners would explain to me, that didn't mean that they wouldn't assassinate your character behind your back. I don't mean to generalize, of course. Southerners know themselves better than I know them. I always loved traveling in the South and Southern hospitality. But this is what Southerners themselves would tell me about themselves. I was told repeatedly that Southern graciousness was a mere myth and facade. They often told me that it was no more than skin deep.

Sansom48
11-09-2009, 12:23 PM
In the South, people, at least to your face, are quite refined and genteel. They won't say anything unkind to your face. But, as many southerners would explain to me, that didn't mean that they wouldn't assassinate your character behind your back.

This is interesting. Many of my relatives are from the south, my grandmother lives in Mississippi, and my other grandmother did live in Texas. My grandmother that lived in Texas, I would say that this statement is absolutely true, this is not a reflection on the people of Texas, my grandmother just had "backstabbing" personality if you will. On the other hand, my grandmother that lives in Mississippi is of the personality that would never allow such talk to enter her presence and much of the people that I know from that area are the same way. My grandmother who lived in Texas, was originally from Missouri, while the the grandmother from Mississippi, is originally from there.

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 12:42 PM
This is interesting. Many of my relatives are from the south, my grandmother lives in Mississippi, and my other grandmother did live in Texas. My grandmother that lived in Texas, I would say that this statement is absolutely true, this is not a reflection on the people of Texas, my grandmother just had "backstabbing" personality if you will. On the other hand, my grandmother that lives in Mississippi is of the personality that would never allow such talk to enter her presence and much of the people that I know from that area are the same way. My grandmother who lived in Texas, was originally from Missouri, while the the grandmother from Mississippi, is originally from there.

I think we get ourselves into trouble when we begin generalizing. The truth is, there are good people everywhere and there are bad people everywhere. I meant to cast no aspersions on Southerners; I was merely recounting what many Southerners have told me about themselves. I, myself, wouldn't begin to make generalizing statements like that. The scriptures say that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and I believe it. I certainly know it from personal experience.

MBushell
11-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Irving,
For what it is worth, I took no offense at your original post. It was a reasonable question. Nor do I mind at all if someone wants to post a message to the forum when they think their bug reports aren't receiving the attention they deserve (as long as they do so respectfully). I am completely comfortable with the way things have been working.

But people need to realize the consequences of what they are asking for. If someone views responses by BibleWorks staff to questions not posed through our support lines as queue jumping, and they want that stopped, it means BibleWorks staff cannot participate at all in the forums. If these kinds of discussions pop up more and more that's what we'll have to do, but I would not be particularly happy to see that. I enjoy the contact with users, but maybe it just can't be made to work without offending some people. We'll see.

Mike

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Irving,
For what it is worth, I took no offense at your original post. It was a reasonable question. Nor do I mind at all if someone wants to post a message to the forum when they think their bug reports aren't receiving the attention they deserve (as long as they do so respectfully). I am completely comfortable with the way things have been working.

But people need to realize the consequences of what they are asking for. If someone views responses by BibleWorks staff to questions not posed through our support lines as queue jumping, and they want that stopped, it means BibleWorks staff cannot participate at all in the forums. If these kinds of discussions pop up more and more that's what we'll have to do, but I would not be particularly happy to see that. I enjoy the contact with users, but maybe it just can't be made to work without offending some people. We'll see.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I, for one, am grateful for your interactions with us users on these forums. (Same goes for the rest of the BW staff) I genuinely hope they won't have to be curtailed. But what you ask is perfectly reasonable. We all need to keep ourselves to a polite and respectful demeanor and tone.

Sansom48
11-09-2009, 12:58 PM
I think we get ourselves into trouble when we begin generalizing. The truth is, there are good people everywhere and there are bad people everywhere. I meant to cast no aspersions on Southerners; I was merely recounting what many Southerners have told me about themselves. I, myself, wouldn't begin to make generalizing statements like that. The scriptures say that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and I believe it. I certainly know it from personal experience.

I understood that you were generalizing, and to be honest, you are probably right in your generalization, I simply had never really thought of it, until you said something, and so whether helpful or not, I shared my ramblings about my grandparents.

ISalzman
11-09-2009, 01:01 PM
I understood that you were generalizing, and to be honest, you are probably right in your generalization, I simply had never really thought of it, until you said something, and so whether helpful or not, I shared my ramblings about my grandparents.

Not a problem at all, Chris! Your posts are only ever civil and kind. I couldn't imagine you having anything but nice grandmothers!

Jim Wert
11-13-2009, 08:33 PM
Thank you for the corrections to TNK.

--Jim

MBushell
11-13-2009, 10:54 PM
Hi Jim. You are welcome. Sorry it took so long.
Mike