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bfairchild
10-08-2009, 08:58 PM
I'm new to BW and trying to learn my way around. One thing I have been unable to do yet is search for a Hebrew verb root in WTM and then find out somewhere how many times the verb occurs in Qal, Niphal, etc. I know I could do individual searches of each stem, but is there a way to see it all broken down by stem? Thank you.

Adelphos
10-08-2009, 09:09 PM
I'm new to BW and trying to learn my way around. One thing I have been unable to do yet is search for a Hebrew verb root in WTM and then find out somewhere how many times the verb occurs in Qal, Niphal, etc. I know I could do individual searches of each stem, but is there a way to see it all broken down by stem? Thank you.

If you set your search version as WTM, you can specify on the CL (command line) whatever you want. For example, to find all Niphal verbs, you would type --

.*@vn*

You might want to set your search limits to a specific book or range.

If you want a particular verb, you would do something like --

.amr@vn*

The "amr" in the above would of course be in Hebrew, and in reverse order. That would give you all "amr" verbs in Niphal.

You may have to hit the Page-Up key or the END key to get the @ sign when typing in the WTM morphology on the CL.

If you click on the green "Tools" option under the CL and then choose "Command Line Examples" you can find many more examples for morphological searches.

bfairchild
10-08-2009, 09:28 PM
(Adelphos, thank you so much for your quick response. I have been able to do that, and the command line examples are very helpful.)

However, what I'm wondering is if there is a way to search for a root and then look at the statistics (ex. 40x in Qal, 25x in Piel, etc.) without having to individually search. I guess it'd be like the word statistics only instead of hits per chapter it would be hits per stem.

Is there anyway to find this without searching for each stem individually?

Thanks

Mark Eddy
10-08-2009, 09:45 PM
I'm new to BW and trying to learn my way around. One thing I have been unable to do yet is search for a Hebrew verb root in WTM and then find out somewhere how many times the verb occurs in Qal, Niphal, etc. I know I could do individual searches of each stem, but is there a way to see it all broken down by stem? Thank you.
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: Adelphos' method is the only one I know in order to have BibleWorks count the occurrences of the different forms of the verbs, namely that you have to search for each of the seven (sometimes more) types of verbs. There is no database in BW which tells you how many times a given verb is in Qal, Niphal, etc.
Another way to find this number for most verbs would be to place your cursor over a verb and look at the BDB entry in the Analysis Window. If there is a dagger in front of the lemma, that means that BDB lists all the occurrences of the verb. BDB will list all the occurrences by Qal, Niphal, etc. So you can count them for yourself (though sometimes the same verse may be listed under different glosses, if there is uncertainty about its meaning).
Warning: BDB and WTM do not always agree for all forms. Some forms can be e.g. either Qal or Hiphil. So counting the verses listed in BDB may vield a different number from searching in WTM. And scholars may disagree about whether BDB or WTM or neither of them is correct.
Mark Eddy

bfairchild
10-08-2009, 09:49 PM
Thank you, Mark. It seems like it would be a small thing to implement, but then I'm not a programmer. Maybe it'll come up in a future release. For now, I guess I'll do it the long way! (It's still better than living 500 years ago and doing it by hand ... by candlelight!)

Ben

ISalzman
10-08-2009, 10:23 PM
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: Adelphos' method is the only one I know in order to have BibleWorks count the occurrences of the different forms of the verbs, namely that you have to search for each of the seven (sometimes more) types of verbs. There is no database in BW which tells you how many times a given verb is in Qal, Niphal, etc.
Another way to find this number for most verbs would be to place your cursor over a verb and look at the BDB entry in the Analysis Window. If there is a dagger in front of the lemma, that means that BDB lists all the occurrences of the verb. BDB will list all the occurrences by Qal, Niphal, etc. So you can count them for yourself (though sometimes the same verse may be listed under different glosses, if there is uncertainty about its meaning).
Warning: BDB and WTM do not always agree for all forms. Some forms can be e.g. either Qal or Hiphil. So counting the verses listed in BDB may vield a different number from searching in WTM. And scholars may disagree about whether BDB or WTM or neither of them is correct.
Mark Eddy

Mark, do you know if any tool exists, outside of BW, that would give the statistics of verb occurrence by stem, whether in electronic bible software format or in good, old-fashioned print media?

Mark Eddy
10-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Others will have to chime in about other software. I use brand X only for non-biblical theological study. When I'm studying the Bible, I use BibleWorks.
The closest thing I know in printed sources to telling you how many of each Qal, Niphal, etc. there are for each verb is Lisowsky's Kondordanz zum Hebraeishen Alten Testament. (Don't worry about the German title, glosses are also listed in English and Latin.) Lisowsky lists all occurrences of every verb in the Hebrew (and Aramaic) Bible, divided into the various categories. He does not count them. You have to do the counting yourself. (If a word occurs twice or more in a single verse, Lisowsky has a separate line for each occurrence, making it easy to count.)
Of course, for the process of exegesis the exact number of times a word is Qal versus Piel or Hiphil does not really matter very much. Just looking at the length of the lists for the various categories in Lisowsky (or BDB in BibleWorks) will give you the general idea of whether a verb is found predominantly in Qal or Niphal or Piel, etc. And for some verbs, some Piel's and Hiphil's have the same meanings as the Qal, so that there may be more differences of meaning between different Qal verses than there are between Qal and Hiphil. So this may be one reason why nobody has bothered to make a database for BibleWorks which gives such statistics. You know what they say about statistics: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." Better to read the Bible than to learn statistics about the Bible.
Mark Eddy

Adelphos
10-09-2009, 12:17 AM
Not to promote my own BOSS program out of hand, as it were, but BOSS is a great tool for keeping track of exactly these types of things. I just did a global search on the different verb conjugations in WTM, converted them over to WTT, then imported them into the WLM, where I saved each as a IEL file, i.e., "wtt_qal_verbs.iel", "wtt_niphal_verbs.iel", and so forth.

I then put each of these verb files, 7 or 8 or however many files you wanted to break it up into, in a Category File that I called Hebrew Verb Conjugations within the WLO in BOSS. Each file tells me how many words are in it, in this case how many verbs are in each heading, so I have instant access to all of this data.

IOW, my BOSS program is a perfect accessory for just this type of thing, and is partially what it was developed for in the first place. For example, I can open this Category file in BOSS and instantly see that there are 9770 Qal verbs in the WTT, and so on. I can also manipulate this data in numerous ways.

FWIW.

bfairchild
10-09-2009, 07:59 AM
Better to read the Bible than to learn statistics about the Bible.


Mark, I concur. This is more for an academic set of assignments than for edification. Thank you for the lead on the book.

Ben

bobvenem
10-09-2009, 09:42 AM
Mark, do you know if any tool exists, outside of BW, that would give the statistics of verb occurrence by stem, whether in electronic bible software format or in good, old-fashioned print media?

A cursory attempt in Logos (verbs in Ruth) also does not yield a breakdown by stem; IOW, it would have to be done for each stem, as in BW.

MBushell
10-09-2009, 12:10 PM
The easiest way to get at this information would be to use the Word List manager;

1. Set WTM as the search version
2. Right click on a word and choose to search for the lemma
3. Open the WLM (Tools button under command line)
4. Click on GenerateList
5. Select Words from Last Query
6. Make sure keep morph codes is selected
7. Click create list
8. From the Sort menu choose to sort alphabetically

This will give you a sorted list of the various parsings for the lemma.

We could probably add a feature to collapse the list and keep only N letters in the morph codes if that would be better, but this at least puts all the info at your finger tips.

Mike

ISalzman
10-09-2009, 12:27 PM
The easiest way to get at this information would be to use the Word List manager;

1. Set WTM as the search version
2. Right click on a word and choose to search for the lemma
3. Open the WLM (Tools button under command line)
4. Click on GenerateList
5. Select Words from Last Query
6. Make sure keep morph codes is selected
7. Click create list
8. From the Sort menu choose to sort alphabetically

This will give you a sorted list of the various parsings for the lemma.

We could probably add a feature to collapse the list and keep only N letters in the morph codes if that would be better, but this at least puts all the info at your finger tips.

Mike

Thanks Mike. One point of clarification though. What are "N letters?" Thanks.

By the way, for you or for anyone else that has previously chimed in on this thread (Scott, etc.), can these same procedures be used to find instances (and the numerical statistics) of the different tenses such as qatals, yiqtols, VaYYiqtols, Veqatals, Imperatives, Jussives, Cohortatives, etc.?

Adelphos
10-09-2009, 12:55 PM
By the way, for you or for anyone else that has previously chimed in on this thread (Scott, etc.), can these same procedures be used to find instances (and the numerical statistics) of the different tenses such as qatals, yiqtols, VaYYiqtols, Veqatals, Imperatives, Jussives, Cohortatives, etc.?

Yes, there are a multitude of ways to find out these things as long as you know what you want to really search for, such as a patah-hey ending for example, or whatever.

But the main thing is, BibleWorks is not a statistical generator, per se. Rather, it allows you to be very, very specific in what you want to search for, so there are innumerable possibilities.

You can't break BibleWorks, so the easiest thing to do if you want to know if BibleWorks can do something is to simply try it.

For example, to learn about Hebrew morphological searches, make WTM your search version and then type -- .*@ -- on the CL and look at all the options that pop up. Go through each and every one of those options, for each option opens up more options, and then that option opens more options again, and so forth and so on.

You can find out a whole lot about a program by pushing its envelope, and unlike mechanical devices, you can't break a software program by trial and error.

If you have a specific search in mind and can't figure out how to construct it, chances are that somebody here will know how to do it either on the CL or the GSE, but you have to know the specifics of what you actually want before you can begin.

ISalzman
10-09-2009, 01:08 PM
Yes, there are a multitude of ways to find out these things as long as you know what you want to really search for, such as a patah-hey ending for example, or whatever.

But the main thing is, BibleWorks is not a statistical generator, per se. Rather, it allows you to be very, very specific in what you want to search for, so there are innumerable possibilities.

You can't break BibleWorks, so the easiest thing to do if you want to know if BibleWorks can do something is to simply try it.

For example, to learn about Hebrew morphological searches, make WTM your search version and then type -- .*@ -- on the CL and look at all the options that pop up. Go through each and every one of those options, for each option opens up more options, and then that option opens more options again, and so forth and so on.

You can find out a whole lot about a program by pushing its envelope, and unlike mechanical devices, you can't break a software program by trial and error.

If you have a specific search in mind and can't figure out how to construct it, chances are that somebody here will know how to do it either on the CL or the GSE, but you have to know the specifics of what you actually want before you can begin.

Thanks, Scott.

MBushell
10-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Hi All,

I just posted a new exe that will permit you to do what was asked at the head of this topic. It adds a new option to the Word List Manager to permit you to set the number of codes kept when morpholohy lists are kept. If you are generating a WLM list for a verb, as outlined in my previous post for this thread, set the number at 2 and this will keep only the 'v' and the stem code. This will result in a list of all the stem occurrances and their frequency like this.

har@vq 1136
har@vn 101
har@vh 63
har@nc 14
har@vt 5
har@vo 4
har@vy 1

Mike

arggem
10-09-2009, 02:54 PM
17 hours from question being asked, to a new exe being posted with a new feature. Not a record actually, but pretty amazing anyhow.

bfairchild, welcome to the wonderful world of BibleWorks!!!

Oh, and Mike, thanks for your ministry and attentive ear to your users!

Adelphos
10-09-2009, 03:15 PM
So to get all the verb stems and their frequency in the Tanach I set my search version to WTM and typed --

.*@v*

waited for it to complete, then imported into the WLM as noted by Mike above, and presto chango!

That should satisfy a lot of people.

ISalzman
10-09-2009, 03:36 PM
Hi All,

I just posted a new exe that will permit you to do what was asked at the head of this topic. It adds a new option to the Word List Manager to permit you to set the number of codes kept when morpholohy lists are kept. If you are generating a WLM list for a verb, as outlined in my previous post for this thread, set the number at 2 and this will keep only the 'v' and the stem code. This will result in a list of all the stem occurrances and their frequency like this.

har@vq 1136
har@vn 101
har@vh 63
har@nc 14
har@vt 5
har@vo 4
har@vy 1

Mike

Mike, when you say, "set the number at 2," do you mean "type 2 in the box on the line in the WLM that says:
"Keep ___ Morph Codes?" Thanks.

ISalzman
10-09-2009, 03:42 PM
So to get all the verb stems and their frequency in the Tanach I set my search version to WTM and typed --

.*@v*

waited for it to complete, then imported into the WLM as noted by Mike above, and presto chango!

That should satisfy a lot of people.

Not so fast. I just executed the operation you suggested. All is not so hunky dory. If you sort the list created in WLM alphabetically, like I did, you'll find that there appear to be glitches. For example, if you go down the alphabetical list of verbs in the WLM, you will find verbs that begin with tzadi mixed in with verbs that begin with sin. I haven't looked at the list extensively, but that gaffe is just for starters. Any thoughts?

MBushell
10-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Mike, when you say, "set the number at 2," do you mean "type 2 in the box on the line in the WLM that says:
"Keep ___ Morph Codes?" Thanks.

Yep, that should do it.

ISalzman
10-09-2009, 05:40 PM
Yep, that should do it.

Thanks Mike.

MBushell
10-09-2009, 11:53 PM
Not so fast. I just executed the operation you suggested. All is not so hunky dory. If you sort the list created in WLM alphabetically, like I did, you'll find that there appear to be glitches. For example, if you go down the alphabetical list of verbs in the WLM, you will find verbs that begin with tzadi mixed in with verbs that begin with sin. I haven't looked at the list extensively, but that gaffe is just for starters. Any thoughts?

The sort order problem has been fixed and posted.
Mike

Adelphos
10-10-2009, 07:49 AM
The sort order problem has been fixed and posted.
Mike

Two things: 1, when I chose to update, the update itself did not actually show up in the dialog box, only the headings for Recommended and Optional Updates, but since I knew that an update was there, I clicked "Check All" and then applied it, and it updated properly. I don't know if this is specific to me, or if anyone else had this problem.

2. When I did a morph search using WTM on all nouns, i.e., -- .*@n" -- and then tried to import it into the WLM, the WLM gave me the error that Gen 1.0 didn't exist, or something like that. I don't remember the exact syntax. I have this problem before. The simple fix is to delete all of the verse references in the edit control and then redo the import, which works fine, but I thought you should know about this glitch as well.

ISalzman
10-10-2009, 08:28 AM
The sort order problem has been fixed and posted.
Mike

Thanks Mike! Just one other example that you guys are the best!