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MBD
07-20-2009, 06:43 PM
Are any of the Jewish commentaries available on line?
Michael

Adelphos
07-20-2009, 06:47 PM
Are any of the Jewish commentaries available on line?

You can try this for starters --

http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/TalmudMap/Maimonides.html

And Davka, though it costs, has an array of stuff. For example, I have Rashi, as well as others, from Davka --

http://www.davka.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

SCSaunders
07-21-2009, 04:15 PM
.... And Davka, though it costs, has an array of stuff. For example, I have Rashi, as well as others, from Davka --

http://www.davka.com/cgi-bin/index.cgiThis has some cool stuff. I remember when you posted this a while back. It seems like their inventory has grown, possibly. Mostly, I looked at the Hebrew word processor last time, which might be why I don't remember these other offerings.

http://www.davka.com/Images/boxshots/tqasehudbox.gif (http://www.davka.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?product=344#)
Wouldn't mind my daughters saturating themselves in this game.

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 04:44 PM
I keep reading all these posts about people having problems with Hebrew and MS Word and I just say, too bad, it's your own fault, because I have mentioned many times how utterly effortless it is to type Hebrew, Hebrew/English, English/Hebrew, import Hebrew, et cetera, et cetera into Davka Writer.

Yes, Davka has proprietary fonts, but they also have good unicode support, so you have to make changes very rarely.

If people are determined to suffer with MS Word and Hebrew, so be it, but I can do in seconds in Davka what it somtimes takes fifteen minutes or a half hour to do in MS Word.

BigJayOneill
07-21-2009, 05:34 PM
The great Rashi's commentary on the Torah (5 books), who often notes other classic commentary, can be found here (http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash/+KwwBmespKRXeptwwwxFqwqFqwmFqwnFqrtnDn5o5hzmxwww/article.html) and here (http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading_cdo/aid/36232/showrashi/true).

Also, there are a few Rabbinic works in Google books.

SCSaunders
07-21-2009, 06:34 PM
I keep reading all these posts about people having problems with Hebrew and MS Word and I just say, too bad, it's your own fault, because I have mentioned many times how utterly effortless it is to type Hebrew, Hebrew/English, English/Hebrew, import Hebrew, et cetera, et cetera into Davka Writer. ....I can only speak for myself. On the one hand, you've sold me. On the other hand, I can't at this time afford Davka. As usual, it comes down to the "bottom line." $$$$$$$

I looked at this word processor when you mentioned in the past, because I wanted to practice writing in Hebrew. My Greek professor @ DTS mentioned one time, that a great way to learn the Koine Greek is to start writing it in.

This seems logical. I would practice my Biblical Hebrew in the same way, by writing letters or notes or whattheheckever, referencing the library of grammars and lexicons in BW. I tried this in MS Word. I tried this in the BW Editor. I lost my sanctification every single time. Thank God for 1 John 1:9.

But, in viewing Davka right after you mentioned it in the past, it seemed the far and away better choice. The far and away better choice, but for the "bottom line." $$$$$$$$$$

I'd still like to practice my Hebrew this way. I'd like to practice it using Davka. I just can't see, at this point, forking the funds over. That's all.

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 07:19 PM
Well, yes, it does cost money, but it's really pretty cheap, and once you get used to simply hitting alt+/ to type Hebrew smack in the middle of an English sentence, and have everything line up perfectly and automatically, and then hit alt+/ again to switch back to English, and then again to Hebrew, plus so many other features, it sure beats dorking around with MS Word in trying to get just one sentence right, which you can hardly ever do anyway.

Michael Hanel
07-21-2009, 07:28 PM
Well, yes, it does cost money, but it's really pretty cheap, and once you get used to simply hitting alt+/ to type Hebrew smack in the middle of an English sentence, and have everything line up perfectly and automatically, and then hit alt+/ again to switch back to English, and then again to Hebrew, plus so many other features, it sure beats dorking around with MS Word in trying to get just one sentence right, which you can hardly ever do anyway.

Have no fear, all those Hebrew/English problems will be solved in Word 2010!!!

tee hee hee... :D

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 07:30 PM
Notice this simple output...

http://www.lamblion.net/image_dump/davka_hebrew_type.jpg

I typed the above in Davka straight through by simply toggling language with alt+/.

I did not have to do ANYTHING other than type. Davka formatted EVERYTHING automatically. And that's just ONE of the easy features of Davka.

And no, I do not work for Davka or have any fiduciary interest in them whatsoever. They do, of course, have some fiduciary interest in me, being that they've got some of my money. :cool:

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 07:56 PM
By the way, Davka, if anyone from Davka happens to be reading this thread, your business would probably expand by at LEAST a factor of 10 if you would make your fonts public. Yes, there is already good unicode support, but you people are missing the boat in a major, major way by keeping all of your fonts proprietary.

ISalzman
07-21-2009, 09:30 PM
Notice this simple output...

http://www.lamblion.net/image_dump/davka_hebrew_type.jpg

I typed the above in Davka straight through by simply toggling language with alt+/.

I did not have to do ANYTHING other than type. Davka formatted EVERYTHING automatically. And that's just ONE of the easy features of Davka.

And no, I do not work for Davka or have any fiduciary interest in them whatsoever. They do, of course, have some fiduciary interest in me, being that they've got some of my money. :cool:

I have Davka and a lot of their add-on modules. It is a great word processor. And one of the greatest features is that you are able to export to a pdf document from within the program. But that's not why I'm writing Adelphos. I'm posting to encourage you to watch your "final mem!" "Shalom" needs a "final mem."

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 09:50 PM
I have Davka and a lot of their add-on modules. It is a great word processor. And one of the greatest features is that you are able to export to a pdf document from within the program. But that's not why I'm writing Adelphos. I'm posting to encourage you to watch your "final mem!" "Shalom" needs a "final mem."

I know it does, but I was just typing an example and I didn't want to pull up the keyboard to find the final mem, as I haven't used Davak in a couple of months, so I have to refamiliarize myself with the keyboard again whenever I use it.

ISalzman
07-21-2009, 09:57 PM
I know it does, but I was just typing an example and I didn't want to pull up the keyboard to find the final mem, as I haven't used Davak in a couple of months, so I have to refamiliarize myself with the keyboard again whenever I use it.

No problem. I was just giving you a hard time. ;)

By the way, DavkaWriter actually has an onscreen virtual keyboard, which you can activate from the view menu. That way, if you ever don't remember where a letter is on the keyboard, the virtual keyboard shows you where it is. I actually type with the virtual keyboard by clicking my mouse on the letters and the vowels there. Also, you can order keyboard stickers directly from Davka. Or, a Hebrew/English keyboard is also available from them.

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 10:05 PM
By the way, DavkaWriter actually has an onscreen virtual keyboard, which you can activate from the view menu.

Actually, it's easier to activate the keyboard by right-clicking on the status bar at the bottom, at least for me. I ususally use the Vilna font, as opposed to the David default font, and you can check the mark on the keyboard to also display in any font you're using.

Once I start using it for a few moments it all comes back to me, but if I lay off for a month or two I always have to type a little bit to get reacquainted, and it gets confusing switching back and forth between Davka and BW, because although I like the Israeli keyboard better, I don't use it with BW because it doesn't seem to work right at times, at least the last time I was doing some searches.

But all in all, it would take a lot of doing to mimic the sentence I typed above in MS Word, whereas it took me all of about ten seconds or so in Davka.

ISalzman
07-21-2009, 10:15 PM
Actually, it's easier to activate the keyboard by right-clicking on the status bar at the bottom, at least for me. I ususally use the Vilna font, as opposed to the David default font, and you can check the mark on the keyboard to also display in any font you're using.

Once I start using it for a few moments it all comes back to me, but if I lay off for a month or two I always have to type a little bit to get reacquainted, and it gets confusing switching back and forth between Davka and BW, because although I like the Israeli keyboard better, I don't use it with BW because it doesn't seem to work right at times, at least the last time I was doing some searches.

But all in all, it would take a lot of doing to mimic the sentence I typed above in MS Word, whereas it took me all of about ten seconds or so in Davka.

Vilna is a nice font. If I'm creating a booklet or program, which I've done on several occasions, I usually use the 'Siddur' font. It's a nice clean font. easy on the eye to read.

By the way, have you ever visited the website "Milon Morfix?' it is a Hebrew dictionary. You can type a word in DavkaWriter, and copy it to 'Milon Morfix.' Then you hit the translate button and it will give you a gloss and dictionary definition for the word. While the lexicons in BibleWorks will also do that for you, the lexicons in BW only index biblical words (i.e., words found in the Bible). Milon Morfix has the translation of all Hebrew words (biblical, modern Hebrew, Literary terms, words from rabbinic texts, etc.).

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 10:17 PM
By the way, have you ever visited the website "Milon Morfix?' it is a Hebrew dictionary. You can type a word in DavkaWriter, and copy it to 'Milon Morfix.' Then you hit the translate button and it will give you a gloss and dictionary definition for the word. While the lexicons in BibleWorks will also do that for you, the lexicons in BW only index biblical words (i.e., words found in the Bible). Milon Morfix has the translation of all Hebrew words (biblical, modern Hebrew, Literary terms, words from rabbinic texts, etc.).

Are you aware that Davka also has a translate feature?

ISalzman
07-21-2009, 10:33 PM
Are you aware that Davka also has a translate feature?

I believe you need to purchase that as an add-on module, right? But, if memory serves me correctly, I think the Davka 'Translate' feature is rather limited. It's very akin to the MS Word internal dictionary. It's not meant to be exhaustive. With Milon Morfix, I have never had the system return a "no definition for word listed" message. It always seems to find the correct definition regardless of whether you've got the lemma/lexical form or not.

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 10:43 PM
I believe you need to purchase that as an add-on module, right? But, if memory serves me correctly, I think the Davka 'Translate' feature is rather limited. It's very akin to the MS Word internal dictionary. It's not meant to be exhaustive. With Milon Morfix, I have never had the system return a "no definition for word listed" message. It always seems to find the correct definition regardless of whether you've got the lemma/lexical form or not.

How about posting the link you're talking about.

And no, it's not an add-on. It comes standard with Davka Writer, and it gives a lot of definitions for both biblical and modern Hebrew and English words. It's the A~a button on the toolbar. Although it's not meant to be a comprehensive dictionary, I think you will find it covers a great many words.

ISalzman
07-21-2009, 10:51 PM
How about posting the link you're talking about.

And no, it's not an add-on. It comes standard with Davka Writer, and it gives a lot of definitions for both biblical and modern Hebrew and English words. It's the A~a button on the toolbar. Although it's not meant to be a comprehensive dictionary, I think you will find it covers a great many words.

Hmmm, okay, I'll have to check it out. The 'Translate' feature, I mean!

The website I referred to is: http://milon.morfix.co.il/

ISalzman
07-21-2009, 10:59 PM
How about posting the link you're talking about.

And no, it's not an add-on. It comes standard with Davka Writer, and it gives a lot of definitions for both biblical and modern Hebrew and English words. It's the A~a button on the toolbar. Although it's not meant to be a comprehensive dictionary, I think you will find it covers a great many words.

Hey, just tried the 'Translate' feature in DavkaWriter. It's pretty decent. Thanks for the heads up! It's not Milon Morfix, but it's good for what it was created to be!

Adelphos
07-21-2009, 11:03 PM
Well, I just did a short exploration, but from what I can tell, Davka's translator will certainly meet most people's needs, and it's a lot faster than the net, and you don't have to type anything or copy and paste anything.

In fact, all you have to do is highlight a word and then click on the translate button and viola! And Davka gives a whole range of defintions and options for each word.

SCSaunders
07-22-2009, 06:11 AM
Well, yes, it does cost money, but it's really pretty cheap, and once you get used to simply hitting alt+/ to type Hebrew smack in the middle of an English sentence, and have everything line up perfectly and automatically, and then hit alt+/ again to switch back to English, and then again to Hebrew, plus so many other features, it sure beats dorking around with MS Word in trying to get just one sentence right, which you can hardly ever do anyway.I've read this entire thread to date, many posts over the evening it seems. I'm definitely starting to feel a compulsion to add Davka to my software repertoire. Plus, God will tell you, I hate "dorking around with MS Word," I honestly hate it. That's no lie. I can be a dork at times; but that's a personal choice I make. When Bill Gates applications force me to dork ..... Ooooooh! That starts one of my sphincters a'puckerin'!

MGVH
07-22-2009, 10:04 PM
Nota Bene (http://www.notabene.com/) still is the best for handling Roman, Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, etc. It even takes care of final forms (both Hebrew and sigma in Greek) automatically. I don't, however, particularly like its system of dealing w/ accents and vowels, but it is usable.
The best option in Word is using Tavultesoft Keyman (http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/?tsxa=quuvoj). US$19 gets you two keyboards.

ISalzman
07-22-2009, 10:11 PM
Nota Bene (http://www.notabene.com/) still is the best for handling Roman, Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, etc. It even takes care of final forms (both Hebrew and sigma in Greek) automatically. I don't, however, particularly like its system of dealing w/ accents and vowels, but it is usable.
The best option in Word is using Tavultesoft Keyman (http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/?tsxa=quuvoj). US$19 gets you two keyboards.

If you'll allow me the liberty of asking, with what synod is the Lutheran Seminary in Gettysburg affiliated (Missouri, Wisconsin, etc.)?

Adelphos
07-22-2009, 10:14 PM
Nota Bene (http://www.notabene.com/) still is the best for handling Roman, Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, etc. It even takes care of final forms (both Hebrew and sigma in Greek) automatically. I don't, however, particularly like its system of dealing w/ accents and vowels, but it is usable.
The best option in Word is using Tavultesoft Keyman (http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/?tsxa=quuvoj). US$19 gets you two keyboards.

Does Nota Bene auto-format, say, Hebrew in the middle of an English sentence, or vice versa? That is, can I just type along in English, hit a toggle key, then type Hebrew, have it auto-formated in right-to-left, then hit the toggle key again and go back to English?

ISalzman
07-22-2009, 10:19 PM
DavkaWriter handles the Hebrew accents and vowels perfectly. It is, keep in mind, a Hebrew word processor first and foremost. Nothing handles Hebrew better. Although, there is one other Hebrew word processor on the market from Israel called 'Dagesh.' I used it years ago and it was quite good too. But that was a number of years and computers ago. I know they still make the product, but I haven't used it anytime recently. So I couldn't assess its strengths and weaknesses as compared to DavkaWriter.

MGVH
07-23-2009, 09:18 AM
The Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg (http://www.ltsg.edu) is ELCA.

MGVH
07-23-2009, 09:29 AM
Yes, Nota Bene (NB) does everything on the fly. CTRL-SHFT G to switch to Greek, CTRL-SHFT H to Hebrew, CTRL-SHFT R back to Roman. Left/right is handled perfectly. The one thing you have to get used to is hitting F6 to access all the vowels/accents, and then hit the character to get what you want.
Do check out the NB Lingua page (http://www.notabene.com/brochures/lingua.html). In addition to Roman, Hebrew, Greek, Cyrillic, it also supports Syriac, Akkadian, Ugaritic, Coptic, Arabic, etc. NB is also a great company run by fine people.
Getting NB Lingua will cost at least $300, but that also includes their excellent bibliographical and textbase modules.
I will acknowledge that I've mostly switched to MSWord for most of my daily stuff and have been using Zotero now to accumulate bibliographical info, but for a heavy duty project with lots of language and footnoting and adherence to style manual conventions, NB is better. NB's native format is RTF, and they do import/export to DOC.

ISalzman
07-23-2009, 10:46 AM
The Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg (http://www.ltsg.edu) is ELCA.

Thanks. Nice area around Gettysburg, Chambersberg, Shippenville, etc. How far would you guys be from the Hagerstown, MD area?

Adelphos
07-23-2009, 12:31 PM
Yes, Nota Bene (NB) does everything on the fly. CTRL-SHFT G to switch to Greek, CTRL-SHFT H to Hebrew, CTRL-SHFT R back to Roman. Left/right is handled perfectly. The one thing you have to get used to is hitting F6 to access all the vowels/accents, and then hit the character to get what you want.

It does appear that NB is the best all-around tool. If I actually needed it, I'd cough up the bucks for it, but I don't need it.

I do need the Hebrew, and as Irving said, I think Davka is unequaled for strictly Hebrew, but that's what they specialize in.

I would think that anybody who is doing serious work with languages which they needed to publish, such as for a Ph.D., or for peer journals, would find NB indispensable.

ISalzman
07-23-2009, 12:43 PM
It does appear that NB is the best all-around tool. If I actually needed it, I'd cough up the bucks for it, but I don't need it.

I do need the Hebrew, and as Irving said, I think Davka is unequaled for strictly Hebrew, but that's what they specialize in.

I would think that anybody who is doing serious work with languages which they needed to publish, such as for a Ph.D., or for peer journals, would find NB indispensable.

Good analysis there, Scott! And, with that, it is almost time for lunch!

bkMitchell
09-05-2009, 11:14 AM
Are any of the Jewish commentaries available on line?
Michael
Yes! Here are a few sites of interest:
(1)http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/
(2)http://www.hebrewbooks.org/
(3)http://www.seforimonline.org/
(4)http://www.karaim.net/

If, you want to save time searching for good texts it might be better to spend a little money on a digital library.

(1)Judaic Bookshelf - Master Library
Powerful Digital Research and Study Resource
ISBN: 1-931711-53-4

(2)Bar Ilan Classic Library
ISBN: 1-931711-27-5 (expensive but very good)


(3)Tanach Plus (this is by far the cheapest of the three and it has the Rishonim(Rashi, Ibn Ezra, the Rambam, and the other Torah giants)

Powerful Digital Research and Study ResourceSummary of Texts Included:
Bible & 24 traditional Commentariesראשונים, Mishna & Commentary, 613 Mitzvah Database + links to actual Bible source for the Mitzvah, Talmud & Commentary, Midrash Aggada, Midrash Halacha, Kaballa, Halacha, Daily Prayer, Sabbath Prayer, Holiday Prayer...
ISBN: 1-931711-66-6

Grace and Peace,
bkMitchell

Adelphos
09-05-2009, 08:41 PM
bkMitchell,

I notice that one of your links is to a Karaite site. The Karaites at one time believed that the points are original/contemporary with either Moses or Ezra. Do they still believe this? It seems from reading Wikipedia and other sites that they still do. I'm just curious, if you happen to know.

bkMitchell
09-06-2009, 08:05 AM
bkMitchell,

I notice that one of your links is to a Karaite site. The Karaites at one time believed that the points are original/contemporary with either Moses or Ezra. Do they still believe this? It seems from reading Wikipedia and other sites that they still do. I'm just curious, if you happen to know.

Adelphos,

the simple answer is yes. The Karaites still believe the Torah as well as all the rest of the Hebrew Bible including it's correct pronunciation was revealed, and is inspired and prefect. Some take it so seriously that they pronounce YHVH as it is written in the massoretic texts.

You will notice that when the ultra-orthodox attack the reform Judaism they sometimes claim the Karaites have more in common with orthodoxy than the reform. The reason for this Karaites believe Torah was given at Sinai while some reforms and conservative Jews accept the documentary theory.

The longer answer is:
It does appear that traditionally the Karaites ,like everyone else, believed that the vowel points (Nikkudot) and their accents(Te'amim) Or at least their exact phonetic values were dictated to Moses from heaven( it is probably the later that most accept today).

The former point of view is illustrated here by a:
“12th century Byzantine Karaite Jehuda Haddassi, actually included the knowledge of Hebrew grammar and its specific categories among his ten principles of faith: '[One must Know] the nature of its [the Bible] language, its conjugations, explanation, path, reading, pronunciation, intonation, vowels, vocalization of the past and the future, masdar, infinitive, imperative, simple, and derived stem, intransitive verbs, absolute and construct state, passive participle, Muf'al and Nif'al, and so one.' “(Hebrew study from Ezra to Ben-Yehuda page 165; the Knowledge of Hebrew among early Karaites, and it's use in Karaite legal contracts Judith Olszoy-Schlanger).

However, the later point of view might be imagined that the modern Karaite would still have to account for the various non-tiberian systems. M.H. Goshen-Gottstein concluded the Palestinian pointing “is basically similar to the ancestor of the Ben-Asher and Ben-Naphtali traditions, even though it uses a different graphic system.”(the history of the Hebrew Language Angel Saenz-Badillos page 93)
In other words despite the various ancient vowel notation systems that have come to our attention all seem to indicate one common pronunciation or at least similar pronunciations. Therefore, the various pointing traditions rarely bother the Karaites because they of the common belief that all represent they same thing.

Obviously the Tiberian Massoretic tradition and one close to that of the so called second rabbinic Bible(not the commentaries of course) is the one in which many Karaites a lined themselves with. An example of this union can be pointed out by the fact that Karaites rarely dealt with matters of the correct pointing, as they believed the Massoretic treaties were the court of jury on such matters. Here is one example of that:
“The Diqduq(grammar) of Ibn Nuh is closely allied in many ways to the work of the Masoretes and some of the Hebrew terms of the Diqduq can be found also in the Hebrew work of the massoretic literature dating from the before the tenth century. The fact that there is very little treatment of pronunciation in the Diqduq is likely to reflect the intention of Ibn Nuh that his work would complement Masoretic treatises on the reading tradition. “(Hebrew Scholarship and the Medieval World edited by Nicholas de Lange Early eastern traditions of Hebrew grammar Page 83)

If Ben Asher and Ben Naphtali were Karaites this would account for their cantankerous debates on those vowel points despite that fact that their systems were very, very, close. After all Naphtali's teacher was probably Asher father or grandfather!

Each believed he was passing on the revealed massorah from Sinai and that the other must be mistaken. It is highly, doubtful that either believed he was creating or introducing something new. If that had been the case the other surely would have pointed it out for attack.

Grace and Peace,
bk.Mitchell

Adelphos
09-06-2009, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation. This is in line with what I had read, and that is also what I had mentioned in another thread about the pronounciation of the Tetragrammaton, although to the best of my knowledge that is not confined to the Karaites.

bkMitchell
09-06-2009, 10:04 PM
Thanks for the detailed explanation. This is in line with what I had read, and that is also what I had mentioned in another thread about the pronounciation of the Tetragrammaton, although to the best of my knowledge that is not confined to the Karaites.

No, problem.
I'll take a look at that tread, soon.

ISalzman
09-08-2009, 09:59 PM
Adelphos,

the simple answer is yes. The Karaites still believe the Torah as well as all the rest of the Hebrew Bible including it's correct pronunciation was revealed, and is inspired and prefect. Some take it so seriously that they pronounce YHVH as it is written in the massoretic texts.

You will notice that when the ultra-orthodox attack the reform Judaism they sometimes claim the Karaites have more in common with orthodoxy than the reform. The reason for this Karaites believe Torah was given at Sinai while some reforms and conservative Jews accept the documentary theory.

The longer answer is:
It does appear that traditionally the Karaites ,like everyone else, believed that the vowel points (Nikkudot) and their accents(Te'amim) Or at least their exact phonetic values were dictated to Moses from heaven( it is probably the later that most accept today).

The former point of view is illustrated here by a:
“12th century Byzantine Karaite Jehuda Haddassi, actually included the knowledge of Hebrew grammar and its specific categories among his ten principles of faith: '[One must Know] the nature of its [the Bible] language, its conjugations, explanation, path, reading, pronunciation, intonation, vowels, vocalization of the past and the future, masdar, infinitive, imperative, simple, and derived stem, intransitive verbs, absolute and construct state, passive participle, Muf'al and Nif'al, and so one.' “(Hebrew study from Ezra to Ben-Yehuda page 165; the Knowledge of Hebrew among early Karaites, and it's use in Karaite legal contracts Judith Olszoy-Schlanger).

However, the later point of view might be imagined that the modern Karaite would still have to account for the various non-tiberian systems. M.H. Goshen-Gottstein concluded the Palestinian pointing “is basically similar to the ancestor of the Ben-Asher and Ben-Naphtali traditions, even though it uses a different graphic system.”(the history of the Hebrew Language Angel Saenz-Badillos page 93)
In other words despite the various ancient vowel notation systems that have come to our attention all seem to indicate one common pronunciation or at least similar pronunciations. Therefore, the various pointing traditions rarely bother the Karaites because they of the common belief that all represent they same thing.

Obviously the Tiberian Massoretic tradition and one close to that of the so called second rabbinic Bible(not the commentaries of course) is the one in which many Karaites a lined themselves with. An example of this union can be pointed out by the fact that Karaites rarely dealt with matters of the correct pointing, as they believed the Massoretic treaties were the court of jury on such matters. Here is one example of that:
“The Diqduq(grammar) of Ibn Nuh is closely allied in many ways to the work of the Masoretes and some of the Hebrew terms of the Diqduq can be found also in the Hebrew work of the massoretic literature dating from the before the tenth century. The fact that there is very little treatment of pronunciation in the Diqduq is likely to reflect the intention of Ibn Nuh that his work would complement Masoretic treatises on the reading tradition. “(Hebrew Scholarship and the Medieval World edited by Nicholas de Lange Early eastern traditions of Hebrew grammar Page 83)

If Ben Asher and Ben Naphtali were Karaites this would account for their cantankerous debates on those vowel points despite that fact that their systems were very, very, close. After all Naphtali's teacher was probably Asher father or grandfather!

Each believed he was passing on the revealed massorah from Sinai and that the other must be mistaken. It is highly, doubtful that either believed he was creating or introducing something new. If that had been the case the other surely would have pointed it out for attack.

Grace and Peace,
bk.Mitchell






Hey bk, I definitely recommend a larger point for your font. I would read your post with interest ... if I could actually read such such a small typeset! :(

ISalzman
09-08-2009, 10:06 PM
Yes! Here are a few sites of interest:
(1)http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/
(2)http://www.hebrewbooks.org/
(3)http://www.seforimonline.org/
(4)http://www.karaim.net/

If, you want to save time searching for good texts it might be better to spend a little money on a digital library.

(1)Judaic Bookshelf - Master Library
Powerful Digital Research and Study Resource
ISBN: 1-931711-53-4

(2)Bar Ilan Classic Library
ISBN: 1-931711-27-5 (expensive but very good)


(3)Tanach Plus (this is by far the cheapest of the three and it has the Rishonim(Rashi, Ibn Ezra, the Rambam, and the other Torah giants)

Powerful Digital Research and Study ResourceSummary of Texts Included:
Bible & 24 traditional Commentariesראשונים, Mishna & Commentary, 613 Mitzvah Database + links to actual Bible source for the Mitzvah, Talmud & Commentary, Midrash Aggada, Midrash Halacha, Kaballa, Halacha, Daily Prayer, Sabbath Prayer, Holiday Prayer...
ISBN: 1-931711-66-6

Grace and Peace,
bkMitchell



Good recommendations, all of them. I drooled when I first saw the contents of the Bar Ilan Classic Library. (I actually studied at Bar Ilan for a year...many, many years ago!) It is an extremely expensive collection however. I have so far resisted the urge. And my finances preclude my giving in to the urge anyway! By the way, I believe they only have original language texts and nothing in (English) translation. Am I correct? Do any of your recommendations above come with English translations?

Chesed VeShalom,
Irving

Jim Wert
09-08-2009, 10:31 PM
Hey bk, I definitely recommend a larger point for your font. I would read your post with interest ... if I could actually read such such a small typeset! :(

I think it is standard in web browsers (at least it works in Firefox and MS Internet Explorer) that Control + or Control - will increase or decrease image size (including print). Just keep repeating the action until you get something you can see comfortably. And when you are done, and have lost all sense of what the default size is, Control zero will retrieve it for you.

Yes, Toronto is a very nice city. I grew up in Lebanon & Lancaster counties in Pennsylvania, went to college in the Shenandoah valley of Virginia, so I do miss the vertical component that just ain't in southern Ontario's landscape (well, there is the Niagara escarpment, but there's not too much of it). I came here to do my alternate service 40+ years ago, and liked it enough that I stayed (the fact that I found my wife here is part of the liking). My children have certainly enjoyed growing up in such a multicultural place. For quite a few years they thought that gyros and Greek spinach and cheese pies were the standard fast foods.

--Jim

ISalzman
09-08-2009, 10:42 PM
I think it is standard in web browsers (at least it works in Firefox and MS Internet Explorer) that Control + or Control - will increase or decrease image size (including print). Just keep repeating the action until you get something you can see comfortably. And when you are done, and have lost all sense of what the default size is, Control zero will retrieve it for you.

Thanks for the tip, Jim!

Yes, Toronto is a very nice city. I grew up in Lebanon & Lancaster counties in Pennsylvania, went to college in the Shenandoah valley of Virginia, so I do miss the vertical component that just ain't in southern Ontario's landscape (well, there is the Niagara escarpment, but there's not too much of it). I came here to do my alternate service 40+ years ago, and liked it enough that I stayed (the fact that I found my wife here is part of the liking). My children have certainly enjoyed growing up in such a multicultural place. For quite a few years they thought that gyros and Greek spinach and cheese pies were the standard fast foods.

--Jim

I'll take a gyro anytime! Aesthetically, Toronto is beautiful with all its parks and green spaces. The waterfront is fabulous. I also took my nine year old NJ son to the Hockey Hall of Fame downtown. He said to me afterwards, "Dad, this is one of the best days of my life!" And we even got to take in Niagara Falls. Spectacular. But I'm well familiar with Lancaster PA and the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, and they are great places too!

By the way, what did you mean by your "alternate service?"

Irving

bkMitchell
09-09-2009, 12:17 PM
By the way, I believe they only have original language texts and nothing in (English) translation. Am I correct? Do any of your recommendations above come with English translations?


Sorry, I do not think any of those offer an English other than maybe the interface. In book form it is much easier to find English Judaica, but the it seems everyone has rashi translations n English software, but usually not anyone else. Well, Soncino has the Talmud (http://jewishsoftware.com/products/Soncino_English_Tanach__Talmud_1215.asp?bhcd2=1252 511010) with English interface and translation, as well as their more expensive, Classic English Translation of: Tanach / Talmud / Zohar & Midrash Rabbah (http://jewishsoftware.com/products/Soncino_Classic_English_Talmud___Zohar___Midrash_1 214.asp) and Artscroll also offers a few CD roms.

Here are some free English sources on the net:
Go to Yiddishkeit.org (http://Yiddishkeit.org)click on their 'torah sources' link and you will find some English translations.

Chumash with Rashi (http://www.aish.com/jl/rg/48969836.html)

Rambam Sefer HaMitzvos (http://www.chassidus.com/general/daily-rambam/303.htm)


Public domain goodies:
Pentateuch with Vocalization, Accents, Masorah Magna and Ma (http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/mss/heb5702/index_eng.html)sorah Parva.



Haḳdamah gedolah ṿi-yeḳarah le-sefer Minḥat Shai ṿe-shaʻar ha-sefer ṿe-ḥatimat ha-ḥibur ... (1876) (http://www.archive.org/details/hadamahgedolahi00jellgoog)


The Massoreth ha-Massoreth of Elias Levita : being an exposition of the Massoretic notes on the Hebrew Bible; or, The ancient critical apparatus of the Old Testament in Hebrew (1867) (http://www.archive.org/details/themassorethhama00ashuuoft)
I am sorry I could not be of more help maybe we'll find something later. Or, maybe some BW users could help locate public domain Hebrew commentaries and have them translation and make user databases of both the original language texts and their translations.

Grace and peace,
BkMitchell

ISalzman
09-09-2009, 01:05 PM
Sorry, I do not think any of those offer an English other than maybe the interface. In book form it is much easier to find English Judaica, but the it seems everyone has rashi translations n English software, but usually not anyone else. Well, Soncino has the Talmud (http://jewishsoftware.com/products/Soncino_English_Tanach__Talmud_1215.asp?bhcd2=1252 511010) with English interface and translation, as well as their more expensive, Classic English Translation of: Tanach / Talmud / Zohar & Midrash Rabbah (http://jewishsoftware.com/products/Soncino_Classic_English_Talmud___Zohar___Midrash_1 214.asp) and Artscroll also offers a few CD roms.

Here are some free English sources on the net:
Go to Yiddishkeit.org (http://Yiddishkeit.org)click on their 'torah sources' link and you will find some English translations.

Chumash with Rashi (http://www.aish.com/jl/rg/48969836.html)

Rambam Sefer HaMitzvos (http://www.chassidus.com/general/daily-rambam/303.htm)


Public domain goodies:
Pentateuch with Vocalization, Accents, Masorah Magna and Ma (http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/mss/heb5702/index_eng.html)sorah Parva.



Haḳdamah gedolah ṿi-yeḳarah le-sefer Minḥat Shai ṿe-shaʻar ha-sefer ṿe-ḥatimat ha-ḥibur ... (1876) (http://www.archive.org/details/hadamahgedolahi00jellgoog)


The Massoreth ha-Massoreth of Elias Levita : being an exposition of the Massoretic notes on the Hebrew Bible; or, The ancient critical apparatus of the Old Testament in Hebrew (1867) (http://www.archive.org/details/themassorethhama00ashuuoft)
I am sorry I could not be of more help maybe we'll find something later. Or, maybe some BW users could help locate public domain Hebrew commentaries and have them translation and make user databases of both the original language texts and their translations.

Grace and peace,
BkMitchell


Bk, you've been very helpful, thanks! I have the Soncino Talmud. I'll check out some of the websites you recommend. Oops, now I am relying on your word(s)!:confused: Just when you told us not to, also!

bkMitchell
09-09-2009, 09:08 PM
Bk, you've been very helpful, thanks! I have the Soncino Talmud. I'll check out some of the websites you recommend. Oops, now I am relying on your word(s)!:confused: Just when you told us not to, also!

Don't worry about it. That saying(motto) has more to do with the study of the Torah/Bible than anything else. It's kind of like sola scriptura and
Ad Fontes. It's call to examine the Bible for ones' self and not to blindly accept every theory about it. There is a place for Rashi and other commentaries, but we can disagree with them when they are guilty of ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

ISalzman
09-09-2009, 09:19 PM
Don't worry about it. That saying(motto) has more to do with the study of the Torah/Bible than anything else. It's kind of like sola scriptura and
Ad Fontes. It's call to examine the Bible for ones' self and not to blindly accept every theory about it. There is a place for Rashi and other commentaries, but we can disagree with them when they are guilty of ignoring the plain meaning of the text.

Oh, I know, bk. I was just razzin' ya. We should be like those noble Bereans, shouldn't we? Speaking of Reb Shlomo ben Yitzchak (Rashi), he was quite something, wasn't he?

bkMitchell
09-09-2009, 09:48 PM
Oh, I know, bk. I was just razzin' ya. We should be like those noble Bereans, shouldn't we? Speaking of Reb Shlomo ben Yitzchak (Rashi), he was quite something, wasn't he?

Yeah, I think so too. That congergation in Veroia/Berea does serve as a great example.

As, for Rashi I think he was interesting and I think he deserves some respect. He taught his daughters talmud too or so they say. His grandson's in law didn't always agree with him about his interpretations on the chumash. Sadly, there are too many chumashim that have only Rashi or others commentaries that agree with him. The old Mikraot Gidolot editions are my favorite type of Chumash as they have different voices debating with each other rather than one authoritative guy. Artscroll's Jaffah edition made a step in the right direction by including more than Rashi and the Targum, but they still have yet to publish a true Mikraot Gidolot.

Grace and Peace,
bkMitchell

ISalzman
09-09-2009, 10:20 PM
Yeah, I think so too. That congergation in Veroia/Berea does serve as a great example.

As, for Rashi I think he was interesting and I think he deserves some respect. He taught his daughters talmud too or so they say. His grandson's in law didn't always agree with him about his interpretations on the chumash. Sadly, there are too many chumashim that have only Rashi or others commentaries that agree with him. The old Mikraot Gidolot editions are my favorite type of Chumash as they have different voices debating with each other rather than one authoritative guy. Artscroll's Jaffah edition made a step in the right direction by including more than Rashi and the Targum, but they still have yet to publish a true Mikraot Gidolot.

Grace and Peace,
bkMitchell

Does the Artscroll Jaffah edition come with the accompanying commentaries in English or only original language?

Vis-a-vis the differences between Rashi and his grandsons, they differed on how they thought phylacteries should be configured. The biblical passage where the practice of phylacteries is derived merely says "You shall bind them for a sign upon your hands, etc." But that is as about as minimal information as you could get. Rashi and his grandsons differed as to the proper constitution of phylacteries. Rashi's prescription eventually won out and became the "Halachah." But at the rabbinical academy (Yeshivah) of my youth, my peers would don the traditional phylacteries (tefillin) during the morning prayers. Upon the conclusion of the morning service, they would remove their tefillin, quickly put on a different pair of phylacteries which conformed to what Rashi's grandsons advocated, and they would then recite the shema, Dt 6:4ff. In this way, they had their bases covered in the case that Rashi were wrong. Talk about zeal, huh? I cannot help but be reminded of Paul's words about his contemporaries: "They have a zeal for God ..." (Rom. 10:2).

Jim Wert
09-10-2009, 03:15 PM
By the way, what did you mean by your "alternate service?"

Irving

Irving - I think I should have said alternative service. The short answer is that in 1968 my draft board accepted me as a Conscienteous Objector. I did my 2+ years sevice under Mennonite Central Committee, who sent me to Toronto to do said service with a community centre and Canadian Peace Research Insititute. (MCC provided for my living expenses, and an allowance of (if I remember correctly) $10 a month.

A longer, more general answer is here: http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A45407.html

--Jim

ISalzman
09-10-2009, 08:24 PM
Irving - I think I should have said alternative service. The short answer is that in 1968 my draft board accepted me as a Conscienteous Objector. I did my 2+ years sevice under Mennonite Central Committee, who sent me to Toronto to do said service with a community centre and Canadian Peace Research Insititute. (MCC provided for my living expenses, and an allowance of (if I remember correctly) $10 a month.

A longer, more general answer is here: http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A45407.html

--Jim

Thanks, Jim, for the explanation! Very interesting. I bet you probably had no idea that you'd end up staying in Toronto. Life is interesting in that way with all its surprise and unexpected turns and twists. Truth (or Life) is stranger than fiction, isn't it? Thanks for sharing your story, Jim.

Irving

bkMitchell
09-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Does the Artscroll Jaffah edition come with the accompanying commentaries in English or only original language?


No, sorry this one the link (http://www.bargainjudaica.com/product.asp?P_ID=2986&strPageHistory=related) is in Hebrew only.

ISalzman
09-11-2009, 10:35 AM
No, sorry this one the link (http://www.bargainjudaica.com/product.asp?P_ID=2986&strPageHistory=related) is in Hebrew only.

Thanks. Looks like a nice volume.