PDA

View Full Version : HCSB now available for Bibleworks



countach
07-29-2004, 11:19 AM
Instructions for installing HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible are here...

[link deleted -- Moderator]

The handling of cross-references and footnotes is not as cool as it could be (NASB style), but this is a quick hack, so good enough.


Hmm, I wonder what other versions people might want.....

jarcher
07-29-2004, 11:39 AM
Is this legal?

Peace,

Jeremy

countach
07-29-2004, 11:49 AM
Sure it is. All web browsers download web pages and cache them in a directory for later quick retrieval. Think of this program plus Bibleworks as a really funky, highly optimized web browser. Websites give you the implicit right to download their data on your own pc, but you can't redistribute it. So give people the program (aka, funky browser back-end), but don't give people the resulting data file.

tomc
07-29-2004, 12:30 PM
About This Book...

Holman Christian Standard Bible® Author Publisher Broadman & Holman Publishers
Nashville, TN
web: www.broadmanholman.com (http://www.broadmanholman.com/) Copyright Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved. Permissions Statement The text of the Holman Christian Standard Bible® may be quoted in any form (written, visual, audio or electronic) up to and inclusive of two-hundred-fifty (250) verses without the written permission of the publisher, provided that the verses do not account for more than 20 percent of the work in which they are quoted, and provided that a complete book of the Bible is not quoted.

When the Holman Christian Standard Bible® is quoted, one of the following credit lines must appear on the copyright or title page of the work.

Scripture quotations are taken from the Holman Christian Standard Bible®,
Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers. Used by permission.

or

Unless otherwise noted, Scripture quotations marked "HCSB" have been taken from the Holman Christian Standard Bible®,
Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers. Used by permission.

The twin traits of accuracy and readability make the Holman CSB® the new standard in Bible translations. For everyone who ever wanted a Bible dedicated equally to precise translation and reader-friendly English, the Holman CSB® is a victory. The HCSB® text retains the subtle meanings of original biblical languages but without being stilted, stuffy, or difficult to read. The result is a rendering of Scripture equally suited to serious Bible study and devotional reading. Work on the Holman Christian Standard Bible® began more than fifteen years ago and among more than 90 biblical scholars.

Updates about the Holman CSB® project are available by clicking here (http://www.broadmanholman.com/hcsb/default.asp).


---------------------------------


I think technically you are using more than 250 verses at once.

jarcher
07-29-2004, 01:47 PM
Although I am thankful for all your hard work on these and I could certainly use them, I agree. This may be pushing the limit on the license. I don't think I'm going to use them until we get a solid answer. I would hate for Holman to pull their translation from the web because people were downloading the data and putting it into other applications.

Peace,

Jeremy

d-man
07-29-2004, 05:13 PM
For a similar discussion see the argument over whether the Bible Import tool for e-Sword is legal at dnspad.com.

http://www.dnspad.com/engine/comment.php?dlid=2&PHPSESSID=8e9366d5bf8aa5ee3a5c8752be75a37e

I still am undecided, myself.

Joe Fleener
07-29-2004, 06:35 PM
For a similar discussion see the argument over whether the Bible Import tool for e-Sword is legal at dnspad.com.

http://www.dnspad.com/engine/comment.php?dlid=2&PHPSESSID=8e9366d5bf8aa5ee3a5c8752be75a37e

I still am undecided, myself.
Thank you for the link. What a very sad discussion.

It confirms my uncomfortable feeling with this technology. I was a systems engineer and programmer for 10 years, and am impressed with the technology that makes these things available, but "the laborer is worthy of his hire."

- "To Whom much is given much is required."

With all the new technology available and the electronic resources on the market it is very difficult for even the law to keep up, but let us all endeavor to stay "above reproach."

countach
07-29-2004, 09:39 PM
First of all, copyright conditions are not determined by the owner of the content, they are determined by the copyright laws in your respective countries. A copyright licence such as the one quoted above cannot increase the restrictions beyond what copyright law allows, it can only relax restrictions. So the "250 words" has no particular effect, unless a court by coincidence also thinks 250 words is somehow important. Remember, under the right conditions you can copy a work in its entirety as fair use. (e.g. Sony Betamax vs Universal Studios).

Secondly, there is such a thing as fair use. No copyright notice in the world can remove the legal doctrine of fair use. That's why you can video tape any program off TV that you like, even though the copyright holders don't want you to, and they went to court to try and stop you, but couldn't. Question: All of you who won't use this program - do you refuse to use your video too, because NBC or whoever doesn't like it? (They don't).

Thirdly, if this program is illegal, then web browsers are illegal too, because they do the exact same thing as this program does, they just present the data differently. They still store the whole lot on your disk, it's just that you would have to visit every page by hand in order to get in on your disk.

Fourthly, Google and other web spiders do this every day. They download entire web sites and dish it up again to everyone in the world. They are doing much more than this program does - not only do they copy and store the information, they mangle it, index it and they re-distribute it in a slightly different format. (Notice the "cache" links on every Google search). And they do all this without any permission from the copyright holders.

Fifthly, there are tons of programs out there for slurping down entire web sites, so that you can browse them off-line on laptop computers. This one just happens to re-format the data at the same time. And every company in the world has proxy servers that keep copys of recently accessed web sites.

As for the whole "worker deserves his wages" argument. If that theory is legitimate here, then it would be perfectly ok to charge an entrance admission cover charge before you walk into church. I don't know anyone who thinks that is ok. I'm working on my own bible translation. I know how much work is involved. I will not be charging for it.

In summary, content holders have to expect legal fair use to be made of any content they distribute on the internet. For them to try and restrict the content further than copyright law allows would not be legal. Having decided to release something on the internet, if they wish to make more money they've got lots of options - distribute a version with Strongs numbers, better cross-references or whatever.

Joe Fleener
07-29-2004, 10:04 PM
Thank you for your thoughts.

At the end of the day each person must make their own choice. My intention was not to offend, but rather to express my "uncomfortable feeling." (Rom. 14:23)

countach
07-30-2004, 01:32 AM
I have moved the location of the program to here, and bundled them together...

[link deleted -- Moderator]

And added some more doco for the frequently asked questions.

I may try Wycliffe's version as the next one to tackle.

countach
07-30-2004, 01:34 AM
Oh yes, the first version of this had a bug with cookies and it may not have worked for you. If it did work, no problem the output will be the same.

Clinton Branscombe
07-30-2004, 10:13 AM
The NWT download worked great, but the HCSB seemed to proceed normally (listing books and chapters) but the resulting file was only 7K filled with many copies of the word "null." (Probably one for each book, but I did not count.)

Just thought you might like to know.

MBushell
07-30-2004, 10:42 AM
Instructions for installing HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible are here...
Hmm, I wonder what other versions people might want.....
Hi Mr, Countach (I didn't see your first name):

While I appreciate your desire to help BibleWorks users gain access to needed tools, we cannot as a company endorse the method. I have not gone to the web site where your program downloads the HCSB, but I believe this sort of practice to be a violation of at least the intent of the publisher. This is based on our own discussions with them regarding an HCSB license. While I would personally like to see all Bible versions distributed without charge, and think this in fact *should* be done, the publishers have often invested a lot of money in these projects and have a Biblical right to recoup those expenses so they can continue their work. We also believe that Christians are duty bound to obey the copyright laws and that failure to do so on a wide spread basis would do great harm to the cause of Christ in this world. In this case, just as a small example, the result could be the removal of the Holman Bible from the web as a free resource there. In a worse-case scenario it could even force us to remove the version compiler from BibleWorks or restrict its use. It would be sad if that happened.

I don't mean to start a long thread on this and probably will not respond to responses, but I do feel that we need to make our views on this matter crystal clear. It is our policy to do everything in our power to respect the labor of others and obey the copyright laws, as a matter of conscience and Biblical principle.

God bless,
Mike Bushell
BibleWorks,LLC

tomc
07-30-2004, 11:00 AM
countach-

The fact is that the HCSB charges a licensing fee in order to use it in full. I know, I have been trying to reach a deal with them to put it on my website.

The reason this is so important in the "Bible industry" is so they can keep up with who has an authorized copy of their work. They have just poured 1000's of hours into this translation and for it to end up on the web in a perverted form would be a shame and misrepresent them.

Now, I don't accuse you of wanting to change their text, but the fact is that if you provide a tool to pull a work off the web it could possibly provide a way for someone to change some key verses and redistribute it.

Sigrid
07-30-2004, 11:10 AM
MBushell wrote:
---
In this case, just as a small example, the result could be the removal of the Holman Bible from the web as a free resource there.
---

In my opinion, who makes a bible translation for earning mony is a follower of SaTaN !

I hope they will burn on fire!

The word of god has to be FREE!

greeting
sigrid

Joe Fleener
07-30-2004, 11:32 AM
In my opinion, who makes a bible translation for earning mony is a follower of SaTaN !

I hope they will burn on fire!


That may be your opinion, but your post is entirely inappropriate for this forum and in direct violation of the Posting Policy:


http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_posting_policy

"The forums exist to help BibleWorks users. For this reason, we encourage discussion, with only two restrictions:

1) Posts must be respectful to the other forum visitors. "Flames" directed at subscribers for no other reason than theological affiliation (i.e. Lutheran bashing, Catholic bashing, Reformed bashing, Liberal bashing, etc.) will not be tolerated. Discussion is allowed and encouraged; invective and railing is prohibited."

Sigrid
07-30-2004, 11:43 AM
1) Posts must be respectful to the other forum visitors.

Hi Joe,

are your sure that followers of sAtaN are visitors of this forum?

You don't have quoted my statement

"The word of god has to be FREE!"


Why?

greetings
sigrid:rolleyes:

MTan
07-30-2004, 11:51 AM
Hello BibleWorks Users,

Before posting tools such as this HCSB download tool, it would be courteous (and Biblical) first to secure permission from the owner of the affected website -- Holman/Lifeway in this case. If the affected website does not want their website to be used in such a way, we will respect that.

This thread is now waaay off topic. If you want to continue a discussion about copyrights, paying translators to produce Bible versions, etc., it needs to move to the "Non-BibleWorks Discussion" forum. If you choose to do so, remember the forum rules. Be respectful to one another. Violators will have to be suspended.

Please also remember that the way you decide to use the Version Database Compiler (VDC) is one that requires responsibility and wisdom. Abuse of the VDC could very well bring external pressures that force us to remove it entirely, and nobody wins when that happens.

Thanks.
Michael