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Ben Spackman
04-29-2009, 12:05 PM
According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary entry for the Johannine Comma, Luther's 1545 translation did not include it, but it was later added in by editors after Luther's death.

But when you open L45 in BW, it reads, "Denn drei sind, die da zeugen im Himmel: der Vater, das Wort und der Heilige Geist; und diese drei sind eins" which clearly DOES include it.

Which of the following resolves this?

a) ABD is wrong, and Luther's 1545 DID include the Johannine Comma text
b) ABD is right, and BW's 1545 Luther text is not the original 1545 Luther text.
c) Something else?

Apparently, other versions claiming to be the 1545 Luther aren't.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/links10.html

Adelphos
04-29-2009, 04:00 PM
According to the Anchor Bible Dictionary entry for the Johannine Comma, Luther's 1545 translation did not include it, but it was later added in by editors after Luther's death.

That is my understanding, i.e., that it was added later. The reason for this, which is only speculative, is that Luther ultimately considered the passage to be genuine, but since the first two editions of Erasmus did not contain it, he left it out of his own translation. It could very well be that Luther intended to include it in a later translation since the third edtion of Erasmus included it, and since also Tyndale and others had included it without reservation in their translations. But as I said, this is just speculation.

Adelphos
04-29-2009, 04:05 PM
Oh, by the way, with regard to the link you posted, I can verify that the printed edition of the 1545 Luther Bibel DOES contain the Comma, so the assertion in the above link that Michael Bolsinger just arbitrarily added it to his electronic text is vacuous.

Ben Spackman
04-29-2009, 04:21 PM
So, the 1545 did include it, or it was added later? (I get a different answer from your two posts...)

Adelphos
04-29-2009, 04:37 PM
So, the 1545 did include it, or it was added later? (I get a different answer from your two posts...)

As I said, I heard that the original 1545 Luther did not contain it, and that it was added later by Luther's editors. However, Luther was working off the earlier editions of Erasmus which also did not contain it, and other evidence came to light after this, so it is not clear -- at least from what I know about it -- how Luther viewed this at his death.

What is clear is that those who followed Luther, i.e., Tyndale, Calvin, Beza, Stephens, et cetera, all considered the passage genuine.

Adelphos
04-29-2009, 04:41 PM
My second post dealt with the charge that Bolsinger just arbitrarily -- i.e., on his own authority -- added the Comma to his electronic text.

He didn't. The printed edition of the 1545 Luther Bibel contains the Comma. Bolsinger was following the printed edtion, not his own authority.

Dan Witte
05-01-2009, 10:41 AM
Regardless of what has ended up in some printed editions of Luther's 1545 version of 1 John (and admitting that sometimes Luther revised his opinions over the years), Luther himself said in his 1527 lectures on 1 John in Wittenberg about the Johannine Comma, "It is added by some ignoramus."

Details: http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1448

Adelphos
05-01-2009, 12:27 PM
Regardless of what has ended up in some printed editions of Luther's 1545 version of 1 John (and admitting that sometimes Luther revised his opinions over the years), Luther himself said in his 1527 lectures on 1 John in Wittenberg about the Johannine Comma, "It is added by some ignoramus."

Yes, Luther was famous for his "rhetorical flourishes" and his changing status on various issues, including his dislike of the book of James.

At the end of the day, however, Luther's opinion is not the benchmark of the witness of the Holy Ghost.

SCSaunders
05-01-2009, 03:52 PM
... Luther himself said in his 1527 lectures on 1 John in Wittenberg about the Johannine Comma, "It is added by some ignoramus."Hilarious!