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MadSammyboy
04-16-2009, 04:06 AM
Hello... I'm a Dallas Seminary student, and I've had BW7 for about a year. I like it fine, but the only training I've ever had was an 'intro to BW' course one of my profs gave. Anyhow, that's been enough, but I'm in my second-year for Hebrew and Greek, so I'm starting to realize I really don't know much about the advanced features of the program. I find I'm going back to using Logos for everything because I really don't know how to use the BW tools very well.

Anyhow, so I'm trying to do a search on a particular Hebrew word in a particular stem (any tense) when it's collocated with another particular construction (I hope that made sense). Can't figure out how to do it in the command line, so I'm trying to figure out this GSE. Is this the right tool for something like this? I can't make heads or tails of the GSE; I keep trying to add words to the little search boxes, but it won't let me type the words in (I switch my keyboard to Hebrew, and I just get little tick-marks no matter what I type); I can't cut and paste words in from the WTT text or from HALOT, because it'll paste the right words, but when I press 'run query', it comes back with something like "there are no instances of ____", but the word it says it can't find is totally NOT the word I'm searching for... really weird.

Anyhow, sorry for rambling. I'm not asking anyone to tell me how to do this particular task (though if you could, that's be awesome)- I'm just trying to find a resource that will walk me through how to get proficient with the GSE. All I can seem to find are sites where people show how to do particular tasks, but the lesson files are .qf files, and I have no idea what those are or how to use them (and apparently, neither does Google).

Sorry for this long, unfocused post. I'd like to learn to how to use this software; it wasn't cheap, and I keep hearing all this great stuff about it, but I don't know how to use it. Is there a resource online that will walk me through all the functions and features? I can't find anything straightforward.

Anyhow, thanks for reading this, and thanks in advance for any help. Sorry for the long post.

spitzerpl
04-16-2009, 06:25 AM
I did not see anywhere in your post where you mentioned checking the help file, so that would be my first suggestion. I have found that Bibleworks has done an amazing job providing a very usable help file. To save you time trying to find it through the Help menu option open up the GSE, place your curser over the window and hit F1. You can do this with any other tool in BW as well. My guess is that you need to double click on the little box you are trying to type into.

arggem
04-16-2009, 06:30 AM
Hi MadSammyboy!! Welcome to the BW forums!

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but when you have something typed in the Command Line, if you click on the "crossed tools" icon to the right of the CL (before executing the command, of course), it opens a drop-down box, the first option of which is the GSE.

Clicking the GSE option transfers what you have in the CL to the GSE. One of the best was, then, to learn the GSE is to type in commands that you do understand, then study them in the GSE.

The CL can do some amazinging complex searches in itself, so you can learn quite abit this way. Of course, the GSE can do exceedingly abundantly more than the CL, so there are some things you can't learn this way, but it's a start.

I can't help you with your specific question, so feel free to post back. The more specific your question, the more likely you are to get specific help.

Happy GSEing!

Greg Ward
04-16-2009, 07:21 AM
Ways to learn about the Graphical Search Enginge:
-Help file (mentioned above).
-Videos. I think BW7 had one. I'm not finding one in BW8 at the moment.
-Examples. Load some of the examples included with Bibleworks. Write a search on the CL and send it to the GSE (mentioned above.) Also look at http://bibleworks.oldinthenew.org/?page_id=214 for a number of other searches created by users.

MadSammyboy, if you post more specific information or even attach the GSE file you've started, someone here may be able to guide you through it.

MadSammyboy
04-16-2009, 12:12 PM
Hey, guys, thanks for the warm welcome. I also appreciate your advice so far.

As to the help file, I did consult it, but I found it... well, let's just say I didn't find it astoundingly helpful; I may just need to spend more time with it.

As to the videos, if I remember right, BW came with a DVD when I bought it, but I don't know what I've done with it.

The command line suggestion was very helpful, and I'm going to work with that some over the weekend- thanks for it.

I did check out the part of the forum where others had posted their searches, but couldn't find a lot that helped me- that doesn't mean it wasn't there, though.

The specific thing I was trying to do last night, when I freaked out and joined this forum (ha, ha), was find every instance of a piel stem for דנר collocated with על לנ. I don't know if that makes any more sense than what I typed... I'm going to play aroound with the help file and the CL stuff that was mentioned here, though... in any event, thanks so much for your interest. I look forward to using this forum, and even to contributing instead of just asking dumb questions. Thanks, y'all!

Ben Spackman
04-16-2009, 12:26 PM
What's the actual construction you're looking for? We can provide it for you, and you can "reverse engineer" so to speak, and figure things out that way. I do that a lot with things like HTML and applescript and so on...

MGVH
04-16-2009, 01:37 PM
You wrote:
"...I keep trying to add words to the little search boxes, but it won't let me type the words in (I switch my keyboard to Hebrew, and I just get little tick-marks no matter what I type);"
That may be your problem. If you indicate that you are working with a Hebrew text base (eg, WTM or WTT), BW is smart enough to know you are wanting Hebrew. Ie, DO NOT switch your keyboard to Hebrew (using Windows). Just type and it should be in Hebrew.
Again, this may not be your problem, and that's very different...

Greg Ward
04-16-2009, 06:40 PM
I did the following command line search and only came up with one verse hit. Is the what you were trying to find?
(Download the file. You can right click on the command line and choose Load Command Line.) To see what it looks like as a GSE query, use the command line Tools button to open the GSE.
(This is in BW8. Should be similar in BW7.)

Edit....Sorry, saved command line did not attach. Type on the command line. wtmENTER (Make wtm your search version.) .dbrEND@vp* [l lbENTER

Mark Eddy
04-16-2009, 11:40 PM
Others have answered most of your questions, but there are a few left. So I'll try to answer them

I can't cut and paste words in from the WTT text or from HALOT, because it'll paste the right words, but when I press 'run query', it comes back with something like "there are no instances of ____", but the word it says it can't find is totally NOT the word I'm searching for... really weird.
If you copy and paste into the GSE you end up with the vowel points and accents. Those are not allowed in a WTM search. They can be used only in WTT. That may be part of the problem. You also have to make sure that your word box (W) contains the same version as you wish to search. E.g. if you paste a Hebrew word into a word box which is using a non-Hebrew search version, BW will automatically change the word you copied into the other language.

All I can seem to find are sites where people show how to do particular tasks, but the lesson files are .qf files, and I have no idea what those are or how to use them (and apparently, neither does Google).
.qf files are "query files" for the GSE. You may copy someone else's query file and (using "My Computer") place it in your BW7 "ASE" folder (the Graphic Search Engine used to be called the Advanced Search Engine, thus the different abbreviation). Then from within BW once you have opened the GSE, click on the folder button (or "File" and "Open"), and you will see a list of all the queries which are in your ASE folder (some come automatically with BW). Click on one to open it, and you can see how a query is set up. After you set up a query of your own (or modify one of the pre-loaded quieries), BW allows you to save it (as a .qf file in the ASE folder), so that you can come back to it and use it at a later time.
I hope this helps you understand the GSE a little more.
Mark Eddy

Glenn Weaver
04-17-2009, 10:21 AM
There are a number of resources that can help you to use the GSE. Some of these have already been mentioned.

--In the Help file are chapters 20 through 23. These chapters discuss the components of the GSE and provide step-by-step examples for how to use the GSE.

--Beginning with a search on the Command Line, then opening the GSE, is a great way to see how the GSE constructs a search.

--There are two Classroom Tips that show how to use the GSE. They don't cover everything, but they may be of help to you. To view these Classroom Tips, go to the BibleWorks website, select Resources for . . , then select Professors and Teachers, then select Tip 1.12 and Tip 1.16.

It may take a little bit of time to figure out the ins and outs of the GSE. Be patient, and work at it little by little. Working carefully through the Help file chaptes on the GSE will be of great help.

The GSE is a very powerful tool. It is extremely flexible so that it can accomplish the searches you want to perform. The cost of this power is that it takes a little bit of effort on your part to understand how to use the GSE. But once you know how it works and what it will do, then you will not find it to be difficult to use.

In the meantime, keep coming back to the BibleWorks forums with questions. The forum folks are very good at helping people use the tools in BibleWorks. Failing that, you can also contact our Customer Service people. The contact information is given in the link in my signature file.

Blessings,
Glenn

MadSammyboy
04-18-2009, 12:14 AM
Listen, everyone, thanks SO much for all of this information. I learned quite a few things I didn't know, but most importantly, you've given me new faith that the resources that are 'out there' can help me get more proficient with the tools.

Part of my frustration came from the fact that I can use a ton of different apps pretty proficiently, and I can't seem to 'jump in' and make BW do what I want it to do. I'm just going to have to trust that this tool is as powerful as everyone says it is, and that I didn't drop a few hunred bucks on a glorified electronic Bible. So I'll keep at it.

By the way, Greg Ward, I say the query you ran (thanks for doing that), and it wasn't what I needed, but I really appreciate you taking the time. If anyone's still interested, here were the instructions for the query I was trying to run, from my prof's assignment sheet:

"Study the use of the expression  דַּבְּרוּ עַל־לֵב elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. (Note: Isa
40:2 uses the imperatival form of the piel verb, but do not limit your search to
imperatives. Study all uses of the piel of דָּבָר followed by עַל־לֵב . My acCordance search
yields eight other examples of the idiom.)"

So that's what I was trying to do. I sort of pulled it off in Logos, but I know there has to be an easier way.

Anyhow, this isn't the last you'll see of me on this forum. Thanks again for all your interest and advice.

Don Johnson
04-18-2009, 01:40 AM
"Study the use of the expression  דַּבְּרוּ עַל־לֵב elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. (Note: Isa 40:2 uses the imperatival form of the piel verb, but do not limit your search to imperatives. Study all uses of the piel of דָּבָר followed by עַל־לֵב . My acCordance search yields eight other examples of the idiom.)"

I really don't know what I am doing with this, but I came up with two graphical queries, one which finds (I think) all instances of the two shorter words together. There are 16 verses in the OT where these occur. I added in all three words with dabar in the piel, and get 5 verses. I am attaching the two queries, I am sure this is not right if your professor got 8 occurrences, but perhaps someone can point us to where I am going wrong and it might be a help to you.

And I might learn something too!

Ben Spackman
04-18-2009, 08:18 AM
Heck, you don't even need the GSE for this :)

Download this command line.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/45431/speak.bwc

I threw in a *2 as well, meaning that any two words can appear after the verb before the prepositional phrase, and it caught one more example with a subject there (making 9 total).

Greg Ward
04-18-2009, 08:48 AM
"Study the use of the expression  דַּבְּרוּ עַל־לֵב elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. (Note: Isa
40:2 uses the imperatival form of the piel verb, but do not limit your search to
imperatives. Study all uses of the piel of דָּבָר followed by עַל־לֵב . My acCordance search
yields eight other examples of the idiom.)"

So that's what I was trying to do. I sort of pulled it off in Logos, but I know there has to be an easier way.

You're right, the command line will work for this. I've attached the CL (CL Search WRM phrace.bwc) file and the GSE file (SpeakComfortably WTM Phrase.qf) fot the professor's search. It is a quotation search. [The forum does not allow .bwc attachments. So save the files to /Program Files/BWx/ase and rename the .bwc without the .txt.]

But are there only 8 occurrrences? No. The phrase search was not a comprehensive approach.

Ben Spackman allowed one intervening word in the phrase (9 results). I chose to allow any number of words in the GSE (Speak_Comfortably_WTM.qf). There are 10 verses. Jer 19:5 has a different verb before bl-l[. So it can be eliminated. But, 2Ch 30:22 is a real hit. It has a proper noun after the verb. There seem to be 9, not 8.


Anyhow, this isn't the last you'll see of me on this forum. Thanks again for all your interest and advice.
Welcome. BW is a great and flexible tool.:)

Don Johnson, you had bl-l[ in the WTT (not WTM). Thus, your search did not find occurrences with pronominal suffixes.

Don Johnson
04-18-2009, 12:17 PM
Don Johnson, you had bl-l[ in the WTT (not WTM). Thus, your search did not find occurrences with pronominal suffixes.

Ah, OK, like I said, I don't know what I am doing with this. I unfortunately only took one year of Hebrew in seminary. Big, big, big mistake! So I rely heavily on Bibleworks for what little Hebrew I can do. And you can see the result!

Thanks for the pointer.