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aaylnx
04-07-2009, 07:02 PM
I have a question regarding the context tab in BW8.

I am looking at the song of Hannah in 1 Sam 2. The word "horn" (qof resh nun) appears in Hebrew in v. 1 and 10. The only difference between this word in v. 1 and 10 is that in v. 1 it the 1st person pronominal suffix is attached at the end. Otherwise, it is the same word. The context tab, however, treats these as two different words.

My question is this: Is this the normal way the context tab works, or is this a mistake? It seems to make no difference wether I look at the text using WTT or WTM. I hope this is an error in this particular text rather than the default behavior of the context tab. Otherwise, it would seem to limit the usefulness of the context tab.

Thanks,

Adam York

Mark Eddy
04-07-2009, 07:54 PM
QeReN is the same "lemma" for both verses, but the "word" is different, because it has a different spelling. This is as in English, when BibleWorks searches for the "word" "horn" it would not find the word "horns" because it is a different "word" even though it is the same root (and would be listed in a dictionary under the same entry).
BibleWorks allows both "lemma" searches (for roots) and "word" searches for exact forms. So, since the context tab lists all the "words" in a context, it does (currently) list each word separately, even if they are the same lemma. If you would prefer the context tab to show "lemmas" when your search version is a morphology version (such as WTM), you can ask other users if they agree, and (if so), ask the programmers to make the change. Since the two different "words" display next to each other in the context window, it should be fairly easy to see that the "lemma" appears twice in this chapter. It would be harder to see this for a verb, for example, which might have a hiphil and a qal in the chapter, but the hiphil would be alphabetically under the letter "heh" and the qal would display where the first root letters comes in the alphabet. So your concern may have merit.
Mark Eddy

aaylnx
04-07-2009, 11:33 PM
Mark,

Thank you for your reply. Since you confirm that it is the BW default to treat these two instances as two different words, yes I would like to propose to the developers that this should be changed or at least changeable by users.

It would be more useful to users if they could take a quick look at the context tab and see that there are two instances of the same word (even though one of these may have an additional pronominal suffix affixed to it).

You are correct that in the case of QeReN it is fairly easy to scroll down the context tab and see the connection. Nevertheless, given the purpose of the context tab, it seems much more reasonable to assume that you should see a 2 by QeReN (at least in WTM) rather than see two instances of two different forms. As you point out, there is even more of a need to default to this behavior in the case of verbs where you might not make a connection by just scrolling down the list.

Additionaly, let me say that the Phrase Matching Tool and the Related Verses Tool also seems to see QeReN as two different words. To the developers, let me say that I think it would be much more useful to have some way of doing a more grammatically neutral search within these tools. Can any developer weigh in?

Thanks,

Adam York


QeReN is the same "lemma" for both verses, but the "word" is different, because it has a different spelling. This is as in English, when BibleWorks searches for the "word" "horn" it would not find the word "horns" because it is a different "word" even though it is the same root (and would be listed in a dictionary under the same entry).
BibleWorks allows both "lemma" searches (for roots) and "word" searches for exact forms. So, since the context tab lists all the "words" in a context, it does (currently) list each word separately, even if they are the same lemma. If you would prefer the context tab to show "lemmas" when your search version is a morphology version (such as WTM), you can ask other users if they agree, and (if so), ask the programmers to make the change. Since the two different "words" display next to each other in the context window, it should be fairly easy to see that the "lemma" appears twice in this chapter. It would be harder to see this for a verb, for example, which might have a hiphil and a qal in the chapter, but the hiphil would be alphabetically under the letter "heh" and the qal would display where the first root letters comes in the alphabet. So your concern may have merit.
Mark Eddy

Ben Spackman
04-07-2009, 11:53 PM
Actually, when I look at the Related Verses tool, it highlights QRN in both, recognizing it as the same word.

Soxfan23
04-08-2009, 01:13 AM
I agree with aaylnx. When I look at the context tab, I would rather see how many times the lemma occurs as opposed to how many times a specific word form occurs. I think this would be the most helpful. Then you could say, "hesed is used 5 times in this pericope" and not worry about counting the different forms, because it may have the 3ms pronominal suffix or be in construct or something.

At least in WTM/BNM or something it should just have how many times the lemma occurs. For me in my studies, it makes it almost useless just to have word forms. It is quicker for me to run a lemma search within search parameters if that's the case. The context tab should make the lemma search unnecessary.

aaylnx
04-08-2009, 11:43 AM
Actually, when I look at the Related Verses tool, it highlights QRN in both, recognizing it as the same word.

I went back and looked at this again and you are correct - at least when you use WTM. The instances of QeReN are only differentiated as two different words in the context tab and it seems to make no difference whether you use WTT or WTM.

Interestingly, if I use the word list manager to created a list of words from 1Sam 2:1-10 ordered by frequency (searching WTM not WTT), then QeReN is listed only once - as one word. That's nice, but I thought the whole point of the context tab was to allow users to quickly see frequency patterns which would otherwise only be available through the word list manager.

I'd like to ask the developers to either change the default behavior of the context tab or to allow an option for words to be displayed by lemma only.