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View Full Version : Stuttgart Elektronic Study Bible from the GBS, demo



wie
07-13-2004, 04:33 AM
A Powerpoint demo of the new Biblestudy programm SESB (Stuttgart Elektronic Study Bible) from the GBS can be downloaded at:

http://www.dbg.de/article.php?channel=S&article=418

Dan Phillips
07-13-2004, 09:59 AM
At first look, the morphological search looks much easier than in BW. And textual apparatus, yay.

But just the NIV and NRSV (see http://www.cybcity.com/bibchr/nrsv.html)? Ick. Brr-r-r-r!

Dan

Y2K2
08-28-2004, 11:33 AM
Greetings to all,

I just took a look at the SESB by Logos and the German Bible Society http://www.logos.com/products/details/1981 and it does look impressive.

The list price is $279.00 but I have found that by looking around via the internet especially you can usually find software (somewhere!) at lower than retail.

What I like about BW is that the quality is high and maintained so and the price is affordable. I think that says alot for the people at BW.

Shalom,

Roundtree.

Ewan MacLeod
08-28-2004, 03:48 PM
The list price is $279.00 but I have found that by looking around via the internet especially you can usually find software (somewhere!) at lower than retail.

What I like about BW is that the quality is high and maintained so and the price is affordable. I think that says alot for the people at BW.

Roundtree.
$279 when the only genuinely new feature is the BHS critical apparatus?! You can buy the BHS for $50 and get the apparatus free! I think it is a bit of a rip-off. I'll stick to BibleWorks...

mlanglois
11-25-2004, 04:26 PM
Yes, the real thing about SESB is the critical apparatus. I've not seen it anywhere else, and that's the reason why I still need to carry a BHS+NA with me...
But SESB is way too expensive. And I'm surprised that Bibleworks -- which is much more dedicated to textual study than Libronix -- does not feature this apparatus!
I would love to see this apparatus in Bibleworks. Maybe as a module? What do you think BW users?

Clint Yale
11-25-2004, 08:08 PM
Mike Bushell has tried to license this work, but the German Bible Society decided to go with Libronix. As I understand it they did it as a stand alone package. Due to licensing restrictions imposed by the German Bible Society. The folks at Logos contacted me regarding Tischendorf several years ago because of the limitations of being able to do anything with the data in the Critical apparatus in the Stuttgart Elektronic Texts. Bibleworks has been tirelessly trying to get this critical apparatus in their program. So far the German Bible Society has refused their request.

Clint Yale
Digital Tischendorf editor
Bellingham, WA

Y2K2
11-27-2004, 02:36 PM
Shalom,
It is true that the only real attractive that the SESB has is its apparatus. I'm not familiar with it so I cannot estimate it. I only hear its praises so I assume that its somehow more useful than that of the BHS. One point concerning the BHS in BW: I find the font used leaves a lot to be desired. I thought at first that there was something wrong with the settings of my new flat faced monitor.

Roundtree.

David Kummerow
11-28-2004, 07:20 PM
The true benifit of SESB is not just that we now have the critical apparatus in a Bible software package, but also that the program offers the opportunity of conducting phrase- and clause-level searches (eg I could do a search for all the hebrew verbless clauses which have 'anoki as subject; in the past I would have to conduct a search on all cluases containing 'anoki and then sift out all the verbal clauses). The program exploits the database of the Werkgroep Informatica (see http://www.th.vu.nl/~wiweb/const/).

However, I have heard reports that the logos software which underlies SESB has bug problems such that there are problems with the phrase and clause searches. Personally, I can't WAIT until BW also offers such searching ability, for this is really the next generation of possibilities for searching the biblical text. If only BW could also include the Werkgroep Informatica database. I hope they can in the future.

David Kummerow.

Charlie
11-29-2004, 04:13 PM
...One point concerning the BHS in BW: I find the font used leaves a lot to be desired. I thought at first that there was something wrong with the settings of my new flat faced monitor.

Roundtree.
Roundtree,
What is the problem you are having with the font? The only font display issues we've had reported in the past were caused by the Windows XP font smoothing bug (fixed in SP1) or problems with video drivers. If you can give me the details I'll help you figure out the cause.

Y2K2
01-23-2005, 04:20 AM
Sorry not to have replied to your invitation to help. The clarity of the Hebrew font in BW6 is, on my PC, not good. The dalet looks like a resh and vice versa. If I am not familiar with a verbal root I can easily make a mistake. With other lettes the same is true, namely, the letters are not crisp. Take a look at Logos' BHS http://www.logos.com/hebrew/bhs and compare the font to that of BW6 for yourself.

Roundtree.

David Kummerow
01-23-2005, 06:28 PM
The German Bible Society now have an English wepage on the SESB package:

http://www.dbg.de/article.php?channel=3&article=546&PHPSESSID=968cbfd837ae5f882ae80a16a4672752

Personally, I really don't know what to do about this software, since I really need access to the WIVU database, but would prefer to use it in Bibleworks. However, upon emailling BW staff about whether they will be implementing the WIVU database into BW, I was told that this would not be happening. I was also told that BW works consistently towards offerring the best software for biblical languages. I take it that they may in the future work towards such a database themselves, since they won't be using the WIVU database itself. But since this database has been the result of something like 20 years of work, I don't like my chances. Besides, I need to be using the database now.

While I don't really like the thought of purchasing and using two lots of Bible software, I guess I am left with little choice. It seems like for those of us BW users who need access to the WIVU database we will have to resign ourselves to purchasing additional software.

I'll begin saving....

David Kummerow.

Joe Fleener
01-23-2005, 08:02 PM
I wouldn't hurt to email Westminster - The Hebrew Institure - Al Groves.

I have heard that some of the WIVU data will eventually end up in the Westminster Database. Not sure how much not sure of when - and of course all of this could just be plain false.

I would be interested in the answer - maybe I will email Al.


-------- 1/24/05 -------------

The word from Prof. Groves is that it is unlikely that the WIVU data will find its way into the Westminster database. However, this is still being discussed and the WHI (Westminster Hebrew Institute) is working on their own syntatical data.

Charlie
01-24-2005, 02:33 PM
Sorry not to have replied to your invitation to help. The clarity of the Hebrew font in BW6 is, on my PC, not good. The dalet looks like a resh and vice versa. If I am not familiar with a verbal root I can easily make a mistake. With other lettes the same is true, namely, the letters are not crisp. Take a look at Logos' BHS http://www.logos.com/hebrew/bhs and compare the font to that of BW6 for yourself.

Roundtree.

The BibleWorks fonts are extremely crisp true type fonts. It is up to your video driver to properly render the fonts on the screen. You can print them out on paper to see how the fonts should be rendered on your screen. They contain all of the information necessary to be rendered very crisp and clear. You should check to see if there is an updated driver for your video card and check your font smoothing options (there was a bug in the Windows XP font smooting pre-SP1).

Michael Hanel
01-24-2005, 05:05 PM
Another solution is to make the font size larger in the Options. I've found that helps me quite a bit when looking at all the little markings on letters. :eek:

mike

Y2K2
01-24-2005, 08:43 PM
Thank you Charlie. I will check on the driver for my video card. I also will perform the checks you mentioned.

In all, I am pleased to know that you estimate the fonts to render not fuzzy, but clear script.

Roundtree.

Joe Fleener
01-25-2005, 09:57 AM
The German Bible Society now have an English wepage on the SESB package:

http://www.dbg.de/article.php?channel=3&article=546&PHPSESSID=968cbfd837ae5f882ae80a16a4672752

Personally, I really don't know what to do about this software, since I really need access to the WIVU database, but would prefer to use it in Bibleworks... But since this database has been the result of something like 20 years of work, I don't like my chances. Besides, I need to be using the database now.

David Kummerow.

As an FYI, here are a couple of quotes from the SESB Manual. The program is limited (at least this is my understanding of this) in two ways:

1. Phrase and Clause searching is only available for Gen. - 2 Kings

"The following dialog contains options for searching for phrases (available for Gen. - 2 Kings)"

"The following dialog contains options for searching for clauses (available for Gen. - 2 Kings)"

- pg. 106

2. The interface being used in the current version of SESB does not allow you complete access to all that data that is available.

"The user interface presented in this software will be optimized by further development to give users access to all the important features of the Amsterdam Database."

- pg. 29

I have no idea what the future plans are for the SESB. If the present is any indication of the future, it is unlikely that the GBS will offer more data content and/or more software features for free to those who own the current version of SESB.

Michael Hanel
01-25-2005, 10:39 AM
As an FYI, here are a couple of quotes from the SESB Manual. The program is limited (at least this is my understanding of this) in two ways:


Way to read the fine print. Not that SESB wouldn't have some great information in it, but it may not be everything people want or as easy to use as one would like.

While there still is a big hubub about the WIVU, I must admit I'm still a little skeptical because in order to do this searching in phrases and clauses one must decide what is and isnt in a specific phrase or clause or how one will define a specific clause. Anyone who is worth their spit in exegesis knows that if it's something significant there probably is some level of ambiguity. Would it be exegesis if there wasn't?? ;) Anyway, I think people find out using the BW and similar morphologies that it's not perfect (there are still arguing points on how to say what something is anyway...), but it is still useful. However, the WIVU takes it up a notch and offers a lot more ambiguity. I'm just wondering how it'll hold out as a standard. It's far too early to jump on the bandwagon on this one I'm afraid.

Mike

Joe Fleener
01-25-2005, 10:50 AM
While there still is a big hubub about the WIVU, I must admit I'm still a little skeptical because in order to do this searching in phrases and clauses one must decide what is and isnt in a specific phrase or clause or how one will define a specific clause.
Mike

That is a horse of a different color!

I totally agree. The user base for this who really understand Hebrew phrases and clauses and really have the exegetical need to run these kinds of searches is quite small.

I am all for tools that truly aid exegesis. It makes me nervous to see software developed that takes away my privilege of doing the hard work (blood, sweat, tears and much prayer), by making exegetical decisions for me in their tagging schemes. Although it can be helpful to see others opinions - exegesis is still just plain hard work - and a lot of fun!

David Kummerow
01-25-2005, 04:55 PM
I agree also that there will always be dispute about certain linguistic matters, and this no doubt increases when one steps above "word" analysis. Nevertheless, the way the tagging is done in SESB is quite transparent (at least from what I gather from reading most of Talstra's publications from the last 20 years), so one should be able to read the same data through one's own linguistic grid.

My big question at the moment is how much of the WIVU database the program can utilise. Being able to limit my searches to direct speech would really save me time with my studies. If so, I could limit searches to direct speech to bring up cases where כי or ו begin the direct speech (now here we would need to interpret the data since the status of kÓ recitativum is debated; see Cynthia L. Miller, The Representation of Speech in Biblical Hebrew Narrative, 103-116). Or, since my research is on independent personal pronouns (IPPs), I could bring up cases where an IPP occurs as the subject of a verbal clause (or verbless) in direct speech, or the predicate of a verbal clasue (again, or verbless) in direct speech; and dito for narrative.

Personally, I think being able to conduct searches such as these can only add to exegesis and I can't see that it necessarily takes anything away.

And it's probably wishful thinking to desire an open-source database, but this would be really good because then if you disagree with some point you would then be able to make changes yourself!!

David Kummerow.

David Kummerow
02-03-2005, 05:15 PM
I received a review copy of SESB this week, and so I can now answer my questions posed in the previous post.

Regarding whether searches can be limited to direct speech or narrative, the answer is "no" for the current version, but it should be made available in the next. The database itself has such tagging for Gen-2 Kings, but the software cannot yet exploit it. The next version is supposedly going to encorporate Emdros, so that should be interesting.

Aparatuses are fully searchable, which is nice. The NA27 aparatus offers much more, though, including the ability to search on: manusripts (uncial, lectionary, papyrus, church fathers, etc); punctuation; transpositions; etc.

Na27 offers searching such as: morphology; instances where a morphological form is being used for a different function than the actual form (eg., Nominative "used as" Vocative); crasis; OT quote; text that is disputed, especially concerning its authenticity or its inclusion in a particular corpus; text that is considered to be a later addition to earlier manuscripts; a group of words which expresses a complete thought, generally indicated by major-stop punctuation.

BHS offers searching such as: part of speech; glosses (in a dictionary or lexicon, a brief explanation or definition of a word or phrase); lemmas; etc. Not us much stuff as NA, but then one also has the option to do the WIVU database searches, where searches can be conducted on the phrase- and clause-levels (although, as I said, without the option to narrow searches to direct speech etc yet).

David Kummerow.

David Kummerow
05-30-2005, 06:27 AM
My review of the SESB bible software has now been published for those interested. It has been published in the Scandinavian online journal SEE-J Hiphil:

http://www.see-j.net/hiphil

Articles are only able to be downloaded by subscribers--but subscription is free.

David Kummerow.