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kzitsch
02-13-2009, 04:37 PM
I hope this is the appropriate place to post this. If it is not please write it off to a "newbie." My question is this: Is there any way of obtaining Ginsburg's text as a module for Bibleworks. I love my Bibleworks, but there is a void in in it as I see it without this text. May I say without meaning to impose my values on anyone else, I use the Textus Receptus as my "base text" in which I work off of for textual criticism and other exegesis. This is a conscience issue for me. In the N.T., I can use the "Text Comparison" tool to inform myself of variations between the texts as I research. I have nothing like that for the OT. By way of total disclosure, I know I could use the books (I have one), but I don't have the experience (nor the time to learn) textual apparatuses. It is so much easier just to set the comparison tool that notifies me if some additional research is needed. I know there has been some talk on these threads about the massorah, and although that would be tremendous to have, I would just be satisfied to have Ginburg's text. Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

MWMiles
02-14-2009, 01:27 PM
post removed

kzitsch
02-14-2009, 05:59 PM
You can download the entire 4 volume set of the work that you're looking for in TIF format from various links in this thread:

http://bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3370

It is not available in BibleWorks format. If you'd like it to be in BibleWorks format, then you can use the tools that BibleWorks supplies to make it so. I personally have moved over to Linux and only use Linux applications and tools, so my interest no longer lies in making it a BibleWorks module. Making it a Linux based Bible study tool is more where I'm at now. This would be a lot simpler to add to BibleWorks than the Massorah would be.

Have fun,
Mike
I sense in the back of that "have fun" a wicked little chuckle :)

When you talk about things such as linux, you are talking way above my league. But I appreciate the response anyway. I have a PDF file that I obtained online with the set in it; it is just hard to jump back and forth between it and Bibleworks. It would be so much easier if it were a module. I have read some of the instruction about the version database compiler (I am actually creating my own version mildly revising the King James), but understanding how to get Greek and Hebrew into it with my understanding and the resources that I have at my disposal (or the lack thereof) seems to be beyond me.

I may at some point in time after I get a few projects off my desk take a crack at it (maybe a few aeons from now), but in the meantime I turn my Bibleworks on every day hoping that somebody offers this. What a day of celebration that will be. Having Bibleworks then will be like, well, being in paradise.

But one can only hope :D

kzitsch
02-18-2009, 01:19 PM
Okay, I have given this some time and it truly must be that there is no one working on this for Bibleworks. Since this seems to be only a trainwreck for me, it seems I may be the one that needs to make a contribution here.

Can some one give me some direction on what I will need to have and to consider as I try to do this. It will be piecemeal (as I go). Perhaps I can even compile bits of texts little by little as I am preparing to study and preach on particular OT Scriptures. For example: Presently I am preaching through the book of Exodus highlighting law and Gospel. I could be doing some of this compilation now.

I would really appreciate it if someone out there could tell me what I need in the way of software. I have Note Tab Pro (I use it to compile my own English version), I have an HTML help file program. Is it necessary to have a Hebrew Word Processor? Maybe I already have everything that I need.

Also: What are the important considerations as far as this right to left business? Does this present itself as an insurmountable obstacle?

Is there a Ginsburg text file out there that someone has (or online) with copy-able text (I have a PDF file obtained online that does not permit you to copy text-I guess you can't copy scans). I would be glad to work toward making this available for Bibleworks, and myself too. But I will need some kind soul out there give me some direction, at least initially, pointing me in the right direction.

Thank you
Pastor Ken Zitsch Jr.

Nathan
10-15-2009, 06:22 AM
I wanted to thank you for the link to the thread where I could download the 4 volume set :) and just that I've been looking for Public Liability Insurance (http://www.publicliabilityinsurance.org.uk/) for a while and haven't found where else i can get it.

Thank you so much and I shall spend however long it takes me to download it :)

ISalzman
10-15-2009, 11:13 AM
Okay, I have given this some time and it truly must be that there is no one working on this for Bibleworks. Since this seems to be only a trainwreck for me, it seems I may be the one that needs to make a contribution here.

Can some one give me some direction on what I will need to have and to consider as I try to do this. It will be piecemeal (as I go). Perhaps I can even compile bits of texts little by little as I am preparing to study and preach on particular OT Scriptures. For example: Presently I am preaching through the book of Exodus highlighting law and Gospel. I could be doing some of this compilation now.

I would really appreciate it if someone out there could tell me what I need in the way of software. I have Note Tab Pro (I use it to compile my own English version), I have an HTML help file program. Is it necessary to have a Hebrew Word Processor? Maybe I already have everything that I need.

Also: What are the important considerations as far as this right to left business? Does this present itself as an insurmountable obstacle?

Is there a Ginsburg text file out there that someone has (or online) with copy-able text (I have a PDF file obtained online that does not permit you to copy text-I guess you can't copy scans). I would be glad to work toward making this available for Bibleworks, and myself too. But I will need some kind soul out there give me some direction, at least initially, pointing me in the right direction.

Thank you
Pastor Ken Zitsch Jr.

Hey Ken,

Do you have a link to the website where you can download the pdf version of Ginsburg? I'd be grateful for that.

PS - Where's Lanse, by the way? I worked for a gospel mission organization once for 14 years. During that time, I spoke in 700+ churches, many of which were in PA. I crisscrossed that state so much, there are few places I haven't heard of, but Lanse is one of them.

bkMitchell
10-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Hey Ken,

Do you have a link to the website where you can download the pdf version of Ginsburg? I'd be grateful for that.

I am not Ken, but yes/ken (in heb.) I know you and anyone else can download the Ginsburg's Massorah at http://www.seforimonline.org
(http://www.seforimonline.org)
And, on that same site here is a page with the various volumes of Ginsburg's Massorah for download (link) (http://www.seforimonline.org/seforimdb/index.php?table_name=seforim_database&page=0&function=search&execute_search=1)

Enjoy

ISalzman
10-15-2009, 12:13 PM
I am not Ken, but yes/ken (in heb.)

Oh man, Brian; with that little pun, you're really hit a new לֹא
!:)

I know you and anyone else can download the Ginsburg's Massorah at http://www.seforimonline.org
(http://www.seforimonline.org)
And, on that same site here is a page with the various volumes of Ginsburg's Massorah for download (link) (http://www.seforimonline.org/seforimdb/index.php?table_name=seforim_database&page=0&function=search&execute_search=1)

Enjoy[/QUOTE]

Thanks Brian. Blessings in יֵשׁוּעַ
,

Irving

kzitsch
10-16-2009, 02:00 AM
Irving:

There is a very good copy of Ginsburg's Hebrew text at this web address:

www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf (http://www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf)


You must wait a few moments until the download is complete after clicking on that link. Afterwards, click on file and save it to your hard drive.

I had ordered a pdf (scanned) copy from some guy overseas, but then I found this and it is a whole lot cleaner and copy-able. I hope it is useful to you.

I have seen a few places where Ginsburg's Massorah is presented online for download. I would love to sit down and read his Introduction (online also). It seems as though that would open up the Massorah for me. I am very ignorant of it, and unfortunately time does not permit me to study and try to learn it at this point.

I hope that someday after I complete my doctoral work that I might be able to find a way just to get the Massoretico-Critical Edition into Bibleworks. I understand that will mean doing the morphological version also. That will be alot of work. I would love to have it there just for text comparison reasons however. Not being a competent textual critic, just using the text comparison tool can be extremely beneficial for isolating the issues for further study. Sometimes just a little more information on a passage can really open it up for exposition.

Lanse is a little village about 30 mins west of State College on Interstate 80. It is about 15 miles north of the borough of Philipsburg. Thank you for asking.

ISalzman
10-16-2009, 11:00 AM
Irving:

There is a very good copy of Ginsburg's Hebrew text at this web address:

www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf (http://www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf)


You must wait a few moments until the download is complete after clicking on that link. Afterwards, click on file and save it to your hard drive.

I had ordered a pdf (scanned) copy from some guy overseas, but then I found this and it is a whole lot cleaner and copy-able. I hope it is useful to you.

Thanks so much for the link, Ken!


I have seen a few places where Ginsburg's Massorah is presented online for download. I would love to sit down and read his Introduction (online also). It seems as though that would open up the Massorah for me. I am very ignorant of it, and unfortunately time does not permit me to study and try to learn it at this point.

I hope that someday after I complete my doctoral work that I might be able to find a way just to get the Massoretico-Critical Edition into Bibleworks. I understand that will mean doing the morphological version also. That will be alot of work. I would love to have it there just for text comparison reasons however. Not being a competent textual critic, just using the text comparison tool can be extremely beneficial for isolating the issues for further study. Sometimes just a little more information on a passage can really open it up for exposition.


I know that "curiousity killed the cat," but, if you don't mind my asking, where are you doing your doctoral work and in what field of studies?


Lanse is a little village about 30 mins west of State College on Interstate 80. It is about 15 miles north of the borough of Philipsburg. Thank you for asking.

Must be beautiful out there. In my experience, when the leaves turn to Fall colors, there is no state more spectacular in its beauty than PA. On an East-West plane, would you be on roughly the same line as either Johnstown or Dubois?

ISalzman
10-16-2009, 12:42 PM
Irving:

There is a very good copy of Ginsburg's Hebrew text at this web address:

www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf (http://www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf)




Wow, Ken, what a great resource! Thanks for the heads up re the link. It is a terrific copy of the Ginsburg Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible. I've downloaded it. It's even got a key to the Hebrew abbreviations. This is Christmas (or Hanukkah) come early! I am in heaven. Well, ...almost! Thanks again, Ken. Blessings on your ministry. Brian (bkmitchell), if you want a great version of the Ginsburg Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, go to Ken's link above. You will not be sorry you did.

kzitsch
10-16-2009, 01:27 PM
Irving:

You are quite welcome. It gladdens my heart that I could be of assistance!

My study toward my doctorate is being done at Gordon-Conwell seminary. I am privileged to have Haddon Robinson overseeing my work in the track "The Preacher and the Message." It has firmed up within me the understanding that the work that we do proclaiming God's Word is the most important work to be done in this life.

Dubois is right up the Interstate from me about 28 miles. It is a beautiful area. But it is very impoverished and difficult as well. I have lived a few places in my life (Texas, Colorado, Virginia), but PA is in my blood. I just can't imagine living anywhere else. I would though were God to call me.

Happy Hanukkah

ISalzman
10-16-2009, 01:50 PM
Irving:

You are quite welcome. It gladdens my heart that I could be of assistance!

Well, that's two hearts (at least) that are gladdened today! I hope your congregation appreciates you!


My study toward my doctorate is being done at Gordon-Conwell seminary. I am privileged to have Haddon Robinson overseeing my work in the track "The Preacher and the Message." It has firmed up within me the understanding that the work that we do proclaiming God's Word is the most important work to be done in this life.

Great program. Robinson is still the master homiletician and craftsman, in my own humble opinion. I have a pastor friend here in NJ that received his doctorate last year, studying in the same track (at least, under Haddon and at Gordon-Conwell). And I couldn't agree with you more; there is no more sublime and consequential work that we do than proclaiming the word of God. Sacred task, awesome privilege!


Dubois is right up the Interstate from me about 28 miles. It is a beautiful area. But it is very impoverished and difficult as well. I have lived a few places in my life (Texas, Colorado, Virginia), but PA is in my blood. I just can't imagine living anywhere else. I would though were God to call me.

Happy Hanukkah

I will still never forget the day that I drove into Dubois (in the Winter of 1997-98, I believe). I had been scheduled to speak in a church there on a Sunday morning. Dubois was probably a five-six hour drive from where I was coming in NJ. So I started out the Saturday night before but I couldn't get any further along Interstate 80 than Berwick/Bloomsburg due to a tremendous snowstorm. Even the truckers were getting off the interstate. I was stranded in the middle of nowhere, but I was fortunate to find a motel and hunker in for the night. It was fortuitous; the driving was treacherous. I went to sleep intending to rise very early the next morning and praying that the storm would have passed sufficiently for me to be able to get to Dubois in time for their morning service (at which I was preaching). Thankfully, the storm eventually abated and the roads were passable enough that I was able to make it to my destination in time. But I will never forget driving into Dubois and seeing it nestled in the snowy mountains and backdrop. It was nothing short of sensational and beautiful. God's incredible creation and handiwork. Yes, PA definitely touches the heart. And I've never even lived there! People are down to earth too! I met so many great folks at all the churches I had opportunity to visit and minister in over the years.

Thanks for the Hanukkah wishes. What am I going to do for an encore when the real season and the genuine article arrives in December?

bkMitchell
12-27-2009, 07:25 AM
...
There is a very good copy of Ginsburg's Hebrew text at this web address:
www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf (http://www.d.hazaith.com/Scriptures/Bibles.org.uk/tnk.pdf)


Wow, thanks for the link. This Tanakh/Hebrew OT looks very much like the one sold by the Trinitarian Bible Society. They have have it combined with Franz Delitzsch's Hebrew NT and another edition with F. H. A. Scrivener's Textus Receptus of the NT.

Interestingly, enough Bibleworks has Scrivener's TR, and Delitzsch Hebrew NT, but not Ginsburg's Tanakh. To be fair none of the other commercial Bible Software companies have Ginsburg's Tanakh either.

Grace and Peace,
Brian

MWMiles
12-27-2009, 04:15 PM
It would be nice to have Ginsburg's O.T. included in BibleWorks but I'd be wondering where to put his notes. If the Matthew Henry Commentary was something that we as users could replace, I'd just as soon have Ginsburg's notes in that chunk of screen real estate.

bkMitchell
12-29-2009, 08:58 AM
It would be nice to have Ginsburg's O.T. included in BibleWorks but I'd be wondering where to put his notes. If the Matthew Henry Commentary was something that we as users could replace, I'd just as soon have Ginsburg's notes in that chunk of screen real estate.

Well, it is always possible select which resources one would like to have opened up in the resources summary window. Maybe, the notes could be set up like Tischendorf apparatus is for the NT?

MWMiles
12-29-2009, 09:12 AM
Well, it is always possible select which resources one would like to have opened up in the resources summary window. Maybe, the notes could be set up like Tischendorf apparatus is for the NT?

That would be nice! ;)

bkMitchell
12-29-2009, 07:26 PM
It would also be cool to have the מסורה גדולה וקטנה included in Bibleworks.

I guess it is easy enough to find the Masorah finalis and Sefer Oklah we-Oklah online in PDF and all that's in the public domain. If, I can learn more about ASCII / CCAT format maybe I could try to type that in and see how much work that'd be. If it could be typed in unicode that would speed up things.

MWMiles
12-30-2009, 05:04 AM
I have Frensdorff's Masorah Magna, which is not too hard to locate at a used book store, and his Das Buch Ochlah W'ochlah which was much harder to locate. I have trouble with the German, since I don't do German. :)

Wickes' Two Treatises on the Accentuation of the Old Testament is an interesting read as well.

I still want to lay my hands on some of works that Dr. James Price did on the syntax of the masoretic accents. I remember in the old days before he passed away running into him on the old BibleWorks forum. He was a gem of a guy and we had some interesting email conversations regarding this stuff.

bkMitchell
12-30-2009, 09:05 AM
I still want to lay my hands on some of works that Dr. James Price did on the syntax of the masoretic accents. I remember in the old days before he passed away running into him on the old BibleWorks forum.
You sure do have a nice collection of books on the subject.

So, Dr. James Price was on the BW forum? I am sure you did have some great discussions. You can find his book on syntax here(link). (http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=1419&pc=9) Have you read any of the works by Rav Mordechai Breuer(of blessed memory), Aaron Dotan, or Joshua R. Jacobson's Chanting the Hebrew Bible?

I guess we have gotten a little off topic but this is interesting and fun.

ISalzman
01-01-2010, 10:23 AM
So, Dr. James Price was on the BW forum? I am sure you did have some great discussions. You can find his book on syntax here(link). (http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=1419&pc=9)

Brian, that looks like a great book. But, at $119.95, ouch!


Have you read any of the works by Rav Mordechai Breuer(of blessed memory), Aaron Dotan, or Joshua R. Jacobson's Chanting the Hebrew Bible?

I've got Jacobson's book. Great resource.

You know, I was a Torah reader in several synagogues in my previous life (No, I don't believe in reincarnation; just a figure of speech). I was a 'Ba'al qore'' (Torah Reader) for 15 years from the age of 13 (Bar Mitzvah) until I was 28. The Massoretic accents are a lot of fun. I don't think most people realize the extent to which they help us in exegesis. There are verses whose sense would be rendered completely differently by translators were it not for the Massoretic accents. They are akin to our English punctuation. That said, I'm not arguing for their inspiration; clearly, only the consonantal text of the Hebrew Bible is inspired. Nevertheless, they are helpful for interpretation.

MWMiles
01-03-2010, 10:19 AM
You sure do have a nice collection of books on the subject.

So, Dr. James Price was on the BW forum? I am sure you did have some great discussions. You can find his book on syntax here(link). (http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=1419&pc=9) Have you read any of the works by Rav Mordechai Breuer(of blessed memory), Aaron Dotan, or Joshua R. Jacobson's Chanting the Hebrew Bible?

I guess we have gotten a little off topic but this is interesting and fun.

I have Dotan's Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia here and he wrote the analytical table of contents and the list of identified sources and parallels in my print volumes of Ginsburg's Massorah. I have nothing by the other fellows here.

Thanks for the link to Dr. Price's work. I always mean to buy it but end up buying other things like groceries. :) If I remember right, Dr. Price has other works on the subject as well.

Another book that I have in my print library that is interesting is Israel Yeivin's Introduction to the Tiberian Massorah. I have the translation that E.J. Revell did on this work. I don't know if it is still in print or not and I've had my copy for a spell.

Gotta go help my GF with her computer... type at you later!

MWMiles
01-03-2010, 10:24 AM
Brian, that looks like a great book. But, at $119.95, ouch!



I've got Jacobson's book. Great resource.

You know, I was a Torah reader in several synagogues in my previous life (No, I don't believe in reincarnation; just a figure of speech). I was a 'Ba'al qore'' (Torah Reader) for 15 years from the age of 13 (Bar Mitzvah) until I was 28. The Massoretic accents are a lot of fun. I don't think most people realize the extent to which they help us in exegesis. There are verses whose sense would be rendered completely differently by translators were it not for the Massoretic accents. They are akin to our English punctuation. That said, I'm not arguing for their inspiration; clearly, only the consonantal text of the Hebrew Bible is inspired. Nevertheless, they are helpful for interpretation.

Amen to that about the Massorah aiding in interpretation. If more people realized this, then they would incorporate it in their Hebrew studies. And the people that did their Hebrew studies using the Massorah could pass along that info to the folks that don't study in Hebrew.

If I remember correctly, the Companion Bible by E.W. Bullinger made use of the Massorah that Ginsburg collated as did Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.

bkMitchell
01-04-2010, 11:15 PM
... I was a 'Ba'al qore'' (Torah Reader) for 15 years from the age of 13 (Bar Mitzvah) until I was 28. The Massoretic accents are a lot of fun. I don't think most people realize the extent to which they help us in exegesis...

Once a baal kriah always one. And you're right the Taamei HaMikra(accents) are of great importance for example that famous verse from Deuteronomy & the Passover Seder reads אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי either:



"A Syrian ready to perish was my father," (Deu 26:5 KJV)

"A wandering Aramean was my father"(Deu 26:5 JPS 1917)

"An Aramean tried to kill my father"(Seder)

All based on how one understand the accents. kind of interesting to say the least.



...Another book that I have in my print library that is interesting is Israel Yeivin's Introduction to the Tiberian Massorah. I have the translation that E.J. Revell did on this work. I don't know if it is still in print or not and I've had my copy for a spell.... type at you later!

Yeah, That book is still in selling:
Introduction to the Tiberian Masorah (Masoretic Studies) $39.95
at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Tiberian-Masorah-Masoretic-Studies/dp/089130374X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262571926&sr=8-1-spell)

ISalzman
01-05-2010, 12:35 PM
Once a baal kriah always one. And you're right the Taamei HaMikra(accents) are of great importance for example that famous verse from Deuteronomy & the Passover Seder reads אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי either:



"A Syrian ready to perish was my father," (Deu 26:5 KJV)

"A wandering Aramean was my father"(Deu 26:5 JPS 1917)

"An Aramean tried to kill my father"(Seder)

All based on how one understand the accents. kind of interesting to say the least.


Yes, very interesting. The Taamei HaMikra ("Trope" is my preferred term) group "'oved 'avi" together. Interesting though that JPS 1917 as well as JPS 1985 don't render the translation following the Trope.

Another interesting verse is Genesis 24:34. "And he said, "I am the servant of Abraham" (my translation). But, without the benefit of the vowel pointing and accents, the verse could, in theory, be translated: "And the servant said, "I am Abraham."" Of course, if he said that, he might have become the first person ever convicted of identity theft!

Kevin W. Woodruff
01-26-2010, 05:45 PM
I noticed this thread and saw that someone commented that James D. Price of Syntax of Massoretic Accents fame had passed away. This is not true. Dr. Price has a webpage at http://www.jamesdprice.com/

Kevin W. Woodruff

MWMiles
01-26-2010, 06:33 PM
I noticed this thread and saw that someone commented that James D. Price of Syntax of Massoretic Accents fame had passed away. This is not true. Dr. Price has a webpage at http://www.jamesdprice.com/

Kevin W. Woodruff

I thought that I read somewhere (besides here) on the internet that Dr. Price had passed away. I'm glad that he is still with us, and thank you Kevin, for letting us know.