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toph
01-17-2009, 09:39 AM
I'm all happy about the inclusion of Schaff's Early Church Fathers in BW. I still seem to have a little navigational problem, however.

Take, for instance, 1Ki 17:11, where a reference to Sermons shows up. I can of course click on it, be transported to a footnote, and then, via the link, to the actual sermon text. I'm just wondering: Whose sermon? This link drops me right into the middle of Schaff's immense work and, since the table of contents on the left hand of the help window does not synchronize automatically (did I miss an option for this somewhere), I have no clue where exactly I am.

So how do I find out whose sermon I am reading here?

toph
01-17-2009, 09:53 AM
I found a workaround, for now at least (still don't think that's the correct way):

Right-clicking in Schaff's text, I choose properties and find out that the internal URL to that text is mk:@MSITStore:c:\programme\bibleworks%208\database s\ecf.chm::/npnf212-001.htm#ha177.

I'm most interested in the last part, npnf212-001.htm. I figure "npnf2" is for "Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, series 2." Checking the table of contents again, I find "NPNF2-12 Leo the Great, Gregory the Great." And, indeed, under "Leo the Great", I find my way back to the "Sermons" page I started out from. So now I know who was the preacher.

My wife also suggested another way: Enter the found sermon text in Google and find out who's the author. But both ways somehow beat the purpose of having Bibleworks, don't they?

Michael Hanel
01-17-2009, 10:00 AM
I'm all happy about the inclusion of Schaff's Early Church Fathers in BW. I still seem to have a little navigational problem, however.

Take, for instance, 1Ki 17:11, where a reference to Sermons shows up. I can of course click on it, be transported to a footnote, and then, via the link, to the actual sermon text. I'm just wondering: Whose sermon? This link drops me right into the middle of Schaff's immense work and, since the table of contents on the left hand of the help window does not synchronize automatically (did I miss an option for this somewhere), I have no clue where exactly I am.

So how do I find out whose sermon I am reading here?


Sounds like something to submit to them, so that it can be improved. There should be a better way to identify the proper text. Meanwhile, this is the best workaround I can think of for now. Highlight a select portion of the text near where you're working and copy it. For instance I copied "The holy widow of Sarepta discovered" and then on the left margin of the HTML module, click the Search tab and search for that string. That will bring up the right place. It's found in Leo's Sermons.

toph
01-17-2009, 10:17 AM
Highlight a select portion of the text near where you're working and copy it. For instance I copied "The holy widow of Sarepta discovered" and then on the left margin of the HTML module, click the Search tab and search for that string. That will bring up the right place. It's found in Leo's Sermons.

Of course, I can do this. But the page I find is the same page I started from. It's simply titled "Sermons", has no indication that they are Leo's and nowhere I can see where this page is located in the page tree -- so I have no means to go e.g. up one level and discover that this is filed under Leo the Great.

Michael Hanel
01-17-2009, 10:36 AM
Of course, I can do this. But the page I find is the same page I started from. It's simply titled "Sermons", has no indication that they are Leo's and nowhere I can see where this page is located in the page tree -- so I have no means to go e.g. up one level and discover that this is filed under Leo the Great.

On my computer, after I search in the HTML file and click on Sermons, I then click the Contents tab in the HTML. The tree is open to the right place. (Sorry I skipped that last part).

toph
01-17-2009, 11:20 AM
You're right: After searching, the tree does synchronize.

I'll submit a feature request for some improvement, but I fear already that this really is a shortcoming of the Windows help system and might not be fixable by the BW guys.

Michael Hanel
01-17-2009, 11:53 AM
You're right: After searching, the tree does synchronize.

I'll submit a feature request for some improvement, but I fear already that this really is a shortcoming of the Windows help system and might not be fixable by the BW guys.

Well regardless of whether it is a problem in the Windows Help System (not sure on that), they can tweak the titles so that you wouldn't see just "Sermons" but something like "Leo the Great: Sermons" or "PNF vol (whatever): Sermons." So I'm not sure on what level it can be fixed and made more clear, but there definitely is some room for improvement on this one.

toph
01-17-2009, 01:59 PM
Just submitted a bug report.

After some further research, I found out that the Microsoft HTML Help Control that BW uses requires unique page titles for TOC auto-syncing to work. Schaff has a lot of duplicate page titles, which probably explains why the TOC doesn't sync there, but does on other modules.

Now we just have to hope for a quick fix from those fantastic programmers!

Comet
01-20-2009, 06:23 PM
They might have provided fully qualified titles in the individual html pages.

For example, a page with the above mentioned property npnf212-001.htm#ha177 could be titled something like:

Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers > Series 2 > Volume 12 > Leo the Great, Gregory the Great > Leo the Great > Sermons > Sermon Title

Although the actual hierarchy is different, see http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0622.htm for the general principal.

I am a bit surprised that they let it ship this way. Perhaps BW acquired this module from dedicated hobbists who might have overlooked this and that there was not time to fix it for the BW8 release. I would think that we'd all have to admit that we'd prefer to have it this way than not at all.

Regardless, I am confident this will get fixed.

toph
01-21-2009, 02:20 AM
By now, I got an email from Glenn Weaver, confirming that this is an oversight and will be fixed shortly.

kitwalker
04-14-2009, 12:36 AM
By now, I got an email from Glenn Weaver, confirming that this is an oversight and will be fixed shortly.

Almost 3 months later of patient waiting and I still haven't seen this rectified, although I keep applying every patch released.

One of the reasons I upgraded was for this module but it has become a real nuisance not knowing who wrote the homily etc that I am referred to.

Any timeframe on when this will be fixed?

Adelphos
04-14-2009, 12:08 PM
One of the reasons I upgraded was for this module but it has become a real nuisance not knowing who wrote the homily etc that I am referred to.

It's not why I upgraded, but I do also find it frustrating. It's very difficult to find out who is saying what. I have to find the phrase in BW and then search for it in another program to find out who the author is. A fix would be stupendous.

Mark Eddy
04-14-2009, 10:11 PM
For what it's worth, I pointed out this problem last fall in beta testing. It will take a person manually to go through all the duplicates and give them separate names. There are also places where various works are split between two different headings. I'm sure that BW8 is prioritizing the fixes which need to be made. This is not so much a bug for the programmers as it is a job for the database compiler.
There are still a few databased from BW7 which have not been corrected (e.g. chapter divisions in Comfort and Barrett), probably because they are purchased and used less than others. But if someone offers to help Glenn out, maybe he'll accept it, and the project can be completed sooner. I can't hurt to ask.
Mark Eddy

Michael Hanel
04-14-2009, 10:23 PM
For what it's worth, I pointed out this problem last fall in beta testing. It will take a person manually to go through all the duplicates and give them separate names. There are also places where various works are split between two different headings. I'm sure that BW8 is prioritizing the fixes which need to be made. This is not so much a bug for the programmers as it is a job for the database compiler.
There are still a few databased from BW7 which have not been corrected (e.g. chapter divisions in Comfort and Barrett), probably because they are purchased and used less than others. But if someone offers to help Glenn out, maybe he'll accept it, and the project can be completed sooner. I can't hurt to ask.
Mark Eddy

From what I understand when I've emailed about this, a fix is in the works, I think they just want to get it right completely. The problem is that if they release this as a bug fix to be downloaded through the updater, the update is going to be a pretty big file (I think it's like 100 MB). Because of costs of bandwidth and such, you want to release it right all at once rather than release it multiple times. So I do know they are on it, but I do not know what their timeline is.

Adelphos
04-14-2009, 11:19 PM
From what I understand when I've emailed about this, a fix is in the works, I think they just want to get it right completely. The problem is that if they release this as a bug fix to be downloaded through the updater, the update is going to be a pretty big file (I think it's like 100 MB). Because of costs of bandwidth and such, you want to release it right all at once rather than release it multiple times. So I do know they are on it, but I do not know what their timeline is.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. It would be best to only have to download it once when it's complete.

MBushell
04-15-2009, 10:25 AM
This problem has been fixed. But we are also at the same time converting the Greek to Unicode and we need to get it right. The files are too large to repost. The post will probably overload our server, especially now that we have update notifications, and we can't afford to do that very often.

For what it is worth, we are human beings, and like all human beings, we respond better to requests than complaints. I have stayed up until the wee hours of the morning, more times than I can count, to help out a single user who asked nicely for a bug fix or a new feature. Complaints seldom keep me up late.

Mike

Glenn Weaver
04-15-2009, 10:29 AM
We are working on the Early Church Fathers. The navigation is completed already. It addresses all of the concerns I have heard. The navigation is easy to use, and it is easy to see who wrote the different works. The text synchronizes with the Table of Contents. We also added 'Previous | Next' navigation at the bottom of each page, so it is easy to go from one page to the next.

We are currently converting the ECF Greek font so that it can use the new SBL Greek Unicode font. This is what is holding up the release of the module. Due to the size of the module, it has to be correct when we release it, as it will cost a bit for the bandwidth.

I know, it is frustrating. But it will be there as soon as we can make sure that it is done correctly. I'm sorry for the delay.

Adelphos
04-15-2009, 12:20 PM
I know, it is frustrating. But it will be there as soon as we can make sure that it is done correctly. I'm sorry for the delay.

It's not in the least bit frustrating when we know that you're working on it. I think some might have thought that the fix for this went by the wayside and had been forgotten.

It might be helpful for you or someone else from BW to post on this forum from time to time the current top priorities that are being addressed back in the shop. I don't mean spontaneous bug fixes and such, but the main gist of what's going on. Just a thought, FWIW.

Otherwise, I think everybody appreciates your hard work, and any time I can find a way to keep Bushell up late, I'm all for it. :rolleyes:

MBushell
04-15-2009, 02:00 PM
It's not in the least bit frustrating when we know that you're working on it. I think some might have thought that the fix for this went by the wayside and had been forgotten.

It might be helpful for you or someone else from BW to post on this forum from time to time the current top priorities that are being addressed back in the shop. I don't mean spontaneous bug fixes and such, but the main gist of what's going on. Just a thought, FWIW.

Otherwise, I think everybody appreciates your hard work, and any time I can find a way to keep Bushell up late, I'm all for it. :rolleyes:

OK, fair enough. Right now I am just working my way through miscellaneous fixes left over after the release. After that I will be switching most of my time to long-standing project to clean up some of our Greek New Testament databases and release some original transcriptions of NT manuscripts. I am hopeful that we will be able to release Vaticanus, SInaiticus, Alexandrinus and Bezae by the late Fall. We also have completely redone and very carefully proofed Westcott-Hort and Scrivener's texts in the wings. The ones we have now have way too many errors. The new ones should be essentially error free and by far the best electronic texts of these versions available. How's that for a teaser. Michael is working now on adding the ability in the RVT and PMT to find verses across versions. Glenn is working on Schaff and after that has a long list of new modules, like an Aramaic grammar for the base package and many more. So we are not twiddling our thumbs. We just can't do everything at once. Folks need to remember that BW is very complicated and we only have 2 programmers, and one inhouse content developer. We work really hard for our users and don't take any of you for granted, even if we can't do eveything that everyone wants - while keeping the price way down.

Mike

Michael Hanel
04-15-2009, 02:20 PM
So we are not twiddling our thumbs. We just can't do everything at once. Folks need to remember that BW is very complicated and we only have 2 programmers, and one inhouse content developer. We work really hard for our users and don't take any of you for granted, even if we can't do eveything that everyone wants - while keeping the price way down.

Mike

Very tantalizing! Forgive your users, for we too are human. Especially since many of your users are in the line of the ministry, it's easy to find an analogy. Just because many people only see their pastor on Sunday, doesn't mean that he just works that day and gets the rest of them off. If you've ever been a pastor, you'd know how much other "stuff" the rest of the week is filled with. Or if you're in academic work, just because you see your prof 2 or 3 times a week doesn't mean he sits in his office and plays solitaire. If you've ever had to prepare a class you'd know how demanding it is! But just as people misjudge the work of others without ever having done it, it's really easy to misjudge how much time all of you BW people take to get these things done when we only get to sit in front of our computer and get to enjoy the fruit of your labor. Some people in the past have said there are too many yes-men on these forums, but even if there were a dozen of us here who constantly were singing of your hard labors, I think you'd still go under-appreciated. Many thanks for the work (and for the previews!!)!

SCSaunders
04-15-2009, 02:36 PM
.... Some people in the past have said there are too many yes-men on these forums, ....To which I'd like to add that everyone of them can greet me with a holy kiss, cheek of my own personal choosing.
Many thanks for the work (and for the previews!!)!Amen!

Adelphos
04-15-2009, 03:18 PM
I am hopeful that we will be able to release Vaticanus, SInaiticus, Alexandrinus and Bezae by the late Fall.

I am assuming you mean in the NT, and not the entire transcript of those MSS. It will also be interesting to see which edition of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus you are using as your exemplars.

Adelphos
04-15-2009, 03:52 PM
I also hope the Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Bezae, and Alexandrinus texts will not have accents, as the original MSS did not have them. I know you guys have an algorithm that you use to add accents, so if you are going to do this with these texts, please make an option to display these texts without accents as well.

MBushell
04-15-2009, 06:02 PM
I also hope the Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Bezae, and Alexandrinus texts will not have accents, as the original MSS did not have them. I know you guys have an algorithm that you use to add accents, so if you are going to do this with these texts, please make an option to display these texts without accents as well.
We wouldn't add accents to these unless it was done by hand (like Swanson did). But there won't be any accents.

SkipB
04-15-2009, 11:39 PM
Mike,
8.0 has been such an enhancement to the way I work, I am grateful for the time spent ironing out all the wrinkles. I am especially glad that you will be able to get back to your long term projects:

After that I will be switching most of my time to long-standing project to clean up some of our Greek New Testament databases and release some original transcriptions of NT manuscripts.I know I have appreciated having the 'quirky' versions of SCR and WHO. But the stuff "in the wings" sounds wonderful. We have all benefited tremendously from your precision work on BGM, and anxiously await the further fruits of your labor. Thanks for a peak at what is to come. Thank You

kitwalker
04-16-2009, 03:25 AM
For what it is worth, we are human beings, and like all human beings, we respond better to requests than complaints. I have stayed up until the wee hours of the morning, more times than I can count, to help out a single user who asked nicely for a bug fix or a new feature. Complaints seldom keep me up late.

Mike

Sorry for asking. It's just that I'd been waiting and waiting for the correction (checking for a patch every couple of days) and had no idea whether it was even on the agenda anymore. I'm pleased to know it's coming. Many thanks for your hard work, I do appreciate it.

Glenn Weaver
05-07-2009, 09:50 AM
Hi Folks,

I want to give you a progress report on the update for the Early Church Fathers.

--All of the navigation repairs have been made. This includes a new table of contents, a new Resource Summary Window results display that includes the name of the author of that particular work and title of the work, and 'Previous | Next' links at the bottom of each page. The synchronization between the table of contents and the text page works.

--The Greek and Hebrew fonts are Unicode. The default is to display Greek in the new SBL Greek font, and the default Hebrew font is SBL Hebrew. The Unicode font can be changed through changing the default Unicode export font setting in BibleWorks. (This is a big deal, since now you can export from both BibleWorks and the ECF and have the same font in your document. And the export fonts are configurable.)

--The text of the ECF can be made larger or smaller by changing the Internet Explorer text size settings. You can also hold the Ctrl button and use your scroll wheel to enlarge or shrink the font size. Changing the font size works not only for the English text, but also for the Greek and Hebrew text.

--Currently I am repairing over 300 Scripture reference tagging errors. This will take a bit of time, as each of them have to be corrected by hand.

Once the Scripture reference tagging errors are corrected and the files processed, we will test the files and then post them for general updating.

Sorry for taking so long to make the update available, but we want to make sure it is correct when we post it.

Blessings,
Glenn

Adelphos
05-07-2009, 10:45 AM
I want to give you a progress report on the update for the Early Church Fathers.

Thanks a bunch, Glenn. I can't imagine the work you have already put into this, nor the remaining work, but it is greatly appreciated by all of us, and it will certainly be very helpful to have it.

calvary
05-07-2009, 01:22 PM
Thanks a bunch, Glenn. I can't imagine the work you have already put into this, nor the remaining work, but it is greatly appreciated by all of us, and it will certainly be very helpful to have it.

Amen! What a huge blessing.

Dave

kitwalker
05-07-2009, 06:17 PM
Many thanks for the update on your progress Glenn!

I'm still really looking forward to seeing your hard work significantly increase my knowledge of the church fathers.

toph
05-12-2009, 08:55 AM
Just checked back on my own thread after a long time, and I have to say: You guys rock! I'm more than happy to wait a bit for such a complete solution.

Kimba
08-11-2009, 07:54 AM
Hi Folks,

I want to give you a progress report on the update for the Early Church Fathers.

--All of the navigation repairs have been made. This includes a new table of contents, a new Resource Summary Window results display that includes the name of the author of that particular work and title of the work, and 'Previous | Next' links at the bottom of each page. The synchronization between the table of contents and the text page works.

--The Greek and Hebrew fonts are Unicode. The default is to display Greek in the new SBL Greek font, and the default Hebrew font is SBL Hebrew. The Unicode font can be changed through changing the default Unicode export font setting in BibleWorks. (This is a big deal, since now you can export from both BibleWorks and the ECF and have the same font in your document. And the export fonts are configurable.)

--The text of the ECF can be made larger or smaller by changing the Internet Explorer text size settings. You can also hold the Ctrl button and use your scroll wheel to enlarge or shrink the font size. Changing the font size works not only for the English text, but also for the Greek and Hebrew text.

--Currently I am repairing over 300 Scripture reference tagging errors. This will take a bit of time, as each of them have to be corrected by hand.

Once the Scripture reference tagging errors are corrected and the files processed, we will test the files and then post them for general updating.

Sorry for taking so long to make the update available, but we want to make sure it is correct when we post it.

Blessings,
Glenn


Just wondering how long and if I can do it to expidite the delivery.

Glenn Weaver
08-11-2009, 08:49 AM
I'm sorry for the long delay. We continued to find things to repair and enhance. Lord willing, the final files should be ready today. If they pass my initial testing, then we will have a short beta testing with a small group of users. If it passes that testing, then it should be released soon after that. If things go as I anticipate, then it should be ready by next week.

The file size is so large that we have to do it right the first time. Thank you for your patience.

Kimba
08-11-2009, 11:26 AM
I have a Patristic Greek Lexicon which I picked up for $40.00 :D and I want to use it.

Michael Hanel
08-11-2009, 11:41 AM
I have a Patristic Greek Lexicon which I picked up for $40.00 :D and I want to use it.

If that was a Lampe lexicon, congratulations on the great deal!!

Kimba
08-11-2009, 12:03 PM
I bought it a long time ago when it was 5 separate paperbacks for $40.00. Then I sent it to a bindery for $20.00 and they did such a fantastic job that you could not see (with the exception of the last section) that it was ever separate books.

Mark Eddy
08-11-2009, 10:59 PM
Of course, Schaff is all in English (with a little Latin), so you won't be able to use Lampe with it, unless your are going to try reverse engineering it to create a Greek text from the English translation, which would be quite a feat!
Mark Eddy

toph
09-01-2009, 02:42 AM
Having been the one who started this thread, I just wanted to say thank you, Glenn and the whole team, for fixing this issue in such a complete way!

Jordan Boston
09-02-2009, 10:39 PM
I also want to go to a certain page in Vol II of the Early Church Fathers and can't find a way to just go to the page that someone wanted me to read. When I put a page # in search the wrong stuff comes up, am I missing something?

Adelphos
09-03-2009, 11:44 AM
I also want to go to a certain page in Vol II of the Early Church Fathers and can't find a way to just go to the page that someone wanted me to read. When I put a page # in search the wrong stuff comes up, am I missing something?

If you want to search for a particular spot in a particular volume, it's fairly easy to do...

Under the Contents menu, open the particular volume you want to search, in your case Vol II. Select the section you want to search. Make sure you click WITHIN that section to set the cursor focus.

Now hit the Ctrl+F key. This will open the Find dialog box. Merely type in your search criteria and the criteria, if it exists, will automatically be highlighted in the document.

Jordan Boston
09-03-2009, 11:52 PM
If you want to search for a particular spot in a particular volume, it's fairly easy to do...

Under the Contents menu, open the particular volume you want to search, in your case Vol II. Select the section you want to search. Make sure you click WITHIN that section to set the cursor focus.

Now hit the Ctrl+F key. This will open the Find dialog box. Merely type in your search criteria and the criteria, if it exists, will automatically be highlighted in the document.

Thanks, this is very helpful. Do you know a way to find something if the only reference you have is a page # and Vol. II for information. Maybe the info I have is not accurate. Thanks for your help.:)

Adelphos
09-04-2009, 10:28 AM
Thanks, this is very helpful. Do you know a way to find something if the only reference you have is a page # and Vol. II for information. Maybe the info I have is not accurate. Thanks for your help.:)

No, I don't know how that could be done. The page numbers are going to vary from publisher to publisher. The only thing you can do that I'm aware of is narrow down what section of what work of what author and then try to connect it from there.

Jim Wert
09-04-2009, 01:28 PM
Jordan,

The BibleWorks copy does include the original page numbers in the text, with lines between pages. If the citation you are looking for is from the same edition as is in BW it doesn't take too long to find a specific page.

The BW copy has all the original publishing information; note that often you have to get title page or similar stuff by clicking on folders, not just the text indicators. Also, each volume is broken up into many smaller chunks, so to find a given page in a given volume you may have to go into a number of the smaller chunks to find the one you want. Each volume is presented in page order, so it isn't too hard.

I tried looking up page numbers using Scott's method, but that only works if the chunk you are in has that page in it.
I tried looking up page numbers in the search facility in the left pane, but couldn't figure out how to limit it to a volume, or even identify the volume where a find was listed. Also, most of the numbers I found were cross references to a page.

So the easiest way is to browse. If, of course the BW edition is the one cited in your reference.

I know this is all rather confusing -- the BW Fathers is a complex critter. I strongly suggest spending some time getting to know it, learning some of its idiosyncrasies, learning to recognize where the volume breaks are, and such like. When in doubt, click on the critter. Nothing may happen, or you might discover something new. Oh, and don't be confused by BW calling it "Schaff's Fathers". I think Schaff was only involved in the 2nd and 3rd series.

--Jim

ISalzman
09-08-2009, 09:30 PM
Hey Jim, I couldn't help but notice your location. I just returned from your fair city.

Irving

Jordan Boston
09-15-2009, 11:16 PM
Thanks for taking the time to help me guys. I appreciate it.

-Jordan