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stuartro@gmail.com
12-20-2008, 05:13 PM
What chance, if any, is there that the ESV Study Bible might be included in Bibleworks as an addon module?

I have been impressed with the ESV Study Bible's rich set of notes, maps, etc. and would love to have them close at hand as I work inside Bibleworks.

Yours hopefully,
Stuart.

Michael Hanel
12-20-2008, 05:40 PM
As I understand it, any one who purchases the ESV automatically gets access to all of the online content. When I asked about whether BW would plan on adding it, it seemed the fact that Crossway was already making available the information was at least part of the reason why they did not seem interested (I am sure other reasons had to do with licensing costs, perceived interest, etc., see here (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673) for instance.).

revaaron
12-20-2008, 07:54 PM
The ESV study Bible is great, and does include great notes and maps as well as other extras. They do provide online access to the entire contents and other items as well. The interface is not too much fun, but it seems to get the job done.

As far as Bibleworks including the ESV study Bible, I am not sure as from what I understand, Bibleworks is trying to remain more of an exegetical tool and not involve themselves too greatly in commentaries or bible study notes (which will raise the price significantly and take away from exegetical work).

Just my two cents, someone let me know if I may have misunderstood something.

For the record, I do agree with you, it would be "nice", but I don't think it will necessarily happen.

Peace,

Dan Phillips
12-20-2008, 09:59 PM
Even though he's UMC, Aaron's right. About this. On every count.

But that's probably about it.

;)

revaaron
12-21-2008, 04:16 PM
One point for the (conservative) Methodist! ;)

nalsop
12-22-2008, 04:16 PM
One point for the (conservative) Methodist! ;)

I thought this was available on Logos but I was wrong. However, it is available for many portable formats like PDA (olivetree, Laridian, etc).

MBushell
12-26-2008, 01:46 PM
We did ask Crossway about this at ETS/SBL and they seem open to the possibility of adding the ESV notes to BibleWorks. Since we haven't actually talked royalties with them yet, I can't say if it would be a base package item or an addon. Stay tuned.

TexasHockey
12-30-2008, 12:18 PM
I also use WordSearch for my non-exegetical work.
They are now making the ESV study notes available as an add-on book.
I still haven't decided to buy those or go for the actual book. Price wise it is pretty close to a toss up.

TARagsdale
01-10-2009, 12:15 PM
Here are a couple of external links from BW into the online ESV Study Bible (http://www.esvstudybible.org/) (still requires an account). If anyone needs a little more help (http://objectivegospel.org/training/BibleStudy/index.shtml) on how to make these links (or find more links into google, wikipedia, dictionary.com, other biblegateway translations...) you can find it here (http://objectivegospel.org/training/BibleStudy/index.shtml).


//
// External Link #27
//
[ESV Study Bible - verse]
Operation = Open
Directory = NULL
File = http://esvstudybible.org/search?q=<book>+<chapter>%3A<verse>
Parameters = NULL
MenuLocation = Browse Window All
TextType = Bible Verse
MapToVersion = ESV
Lookup = Verse Reference
MenuText = ESV Study Bible - verse
Enabled = 1
//
// External Link #28
//
[ESV Study Bible - chapter]
Operation = Open
Directory = NULL
File = http://esvstudybible.org/search?q=<book>+<chapter>
Parameters = NULL
MenuLocation = Browse Window All
TextType = Bible Verse
MapToVersion = ESV
Lookup = Verse Reference
MenuText = ESV Study Bible - chapter
Enabled = 1Be Strong and Courageous,

T.Rags
objectivegospel.org

MBushell
10-06-2009, 12:06 AM
He All,

We now have a license to sell the ESV Study Bible as an addon. It will require a good bit of work though so the release is not imminent. We probably won't add more study Bibles, but this one does have a lot of nice useful maps, charts, etc. so we decided to add it.

Mike

Ben Spackman
10-06-2009, 10:45 AM
I know lots of people like it, but I was singularly *unimpressed* with its notes when I looked through it at SBL last year.

The note on Genesis 1:1, for example, does not even mention the alternate translation of the verse, one many scholars take to be correct (i.e. NRSV and JPS/TNK.) Not even a mention, and it claims to be a Study Bible! Moreover, it assumes that Gen 1:1 (without mentioning the alternative) teaches creation ex nihilo [again, something most scholars now reject], and then states that this is"confirmed by the NT writers' affirmation that creation was from nothing" though their citied passages affirm no such thing. They also leave out 2Peter 3:5, which has a connection to Genesis and creation from the pre-existing chaotic water/deep/tehom.

For a *Study* Bible, I find the notes vastly incomplete and hopelessly dogmatic, with no mention of alternatives.

If BW were to have only one set of study-Bible notes (and I've requested them before), I'd have preferred the NIV Study Bible or JPS Jewish Study Bible. NOT the ESV. Or at least, don't make us pay for them as part of the base package.

Edit: Whether the scholars are right or not is immaterial to this discussion. I expect a *Study* Bible to present the options, not dogmatically choose and arbitrate between them for the reader, without letting the reader know there is even a question.

ISalzman
10-06-2009, 11:34 AM
Respectfully and charitably, I hold the argument for reishit in Gen 1:1 being in the construct state to be "null and void," as it were.

Ben Spackman
10-06-2009, 11:49 AM
You may think what you'd like about the issue, but the point rests that there *is* a debate, and the ESV Study Bible presents the topic as if there were absolute certainty. That is what I take issue with.

(If we want to discuss the grammar, it needs to go into the non-Bibleworks section. I think it clear it *is* in construct with the following finite verb, something done elsewhere in Biblical Hebrew, as well as Akkadian and Arabic. No emendation needed.)

ISalzman
10-06-2009, 12:13 PM
You may think what you'd like about the issue, but the point rests that there *is* a debate, and the ESV Study Bible presents the topic as if there were absolute certainty. That is what I take issue with.

Yes, you're right. There is debate, a point which the ESV Study Bible evidently avoids. But it is important to remember that study bibles are never intended to be exhaustive. You're much more likely to find the kind of exhaustiveness you seek in a good commentary. Speaking of which, Arnold Fruchtenbaum's new commentary on Genesis has just come out in Libronix format. I couldn't believe how exhaustive was his discussion on Gen 1:1-2ff.

(If we want to discuss the grammar, it needs to go into the non-Bibleworks section. I think it clear it *is* in construct with the following finite verb, something done elsewhere in Biblical Hebrew, as well as Akkadian and Arabic. No emendation needed.)

Construct noun forms are rarely ever used with finite verbs. In fact, in the first few chapters of Genesis, contructs are used almost exclusively with the infinitive construct form of the verbs (see Gen 2:4; 2:17; etc.). Realizing we are not in the non-BibleWorks section, could you cite the verse reference of the example to which you allude (i.e., reishit being in construct with the same finite verb?

Ben Spackman
10-06-2009, 12:44 PM
It's not exactly a minor debate, seeing as how a traditional point of theology hangs largely upon it. I don't expect a Study Bible to be exhaustive, but thorough. A mention, perhaps. A "alternate translations read:..." perhaps. But nothing. Nada. Pure dogmatic certainty. If that's the kind of approach that extends throughout, I don't want it.

It does have nice pictures, though :)

Noun+finite verb *is* a rare thing, but it is still regular ol' Biblical Hebrew. Check out Deuteronomy 4:15 and Exodus 6:28, for example, with many more references in Gesenius 130d.
There is not another reference to reshit being in construct with a finite verb (though many hold that every occurrence of reshit is in construct), but it fits under Gesenius description in 130d. "Very often a time-determination governs the following sentence in this way" [that is, a noun in construct with a following finite verb].

Cyrus Gordon points this out as well in his Ugaritic Textbook from 50 years ago.
"A noun may be in the construct before a finite verb.... This is well recognized for Acc., as in the construction awāt iqb 'the word (that) he spoke.' Heb. has numerous, though not generally recognized, examples; e.g. the opening words of Genesis: in the beginning of he-created' (the sense is 'when god began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was chaotic--'). That we are not to emend to (inf. const.) is shown by Hosea 1:2 and Num 3:1. cf. Arabic يَوْمَ followed by the finite verb in temporal clauses equivalent to a when-clause in English." Gordon, Cyrus Herzl. Ugaritic Textbook: Grammar, Texts in Transliteration, Cuneiform Selections, Glossary, Indices. (Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1965): 56, ft 1.

I've heard both Mark Smith of NYU and Dennis Pardee of UChicago (both prominent scholars dealing with Hebrew and Ugaritic) explicitly explain Gen. 1:1 using this construction, and I lean strongly in that direction.

Again, does the ESV allude to any of this scholarship, which is not recent? No.

Soxfan23
10-06-2009, 05:28 PM
He All,

We now have a license to sell the ESV Study Bible as an addon. It will require a good bit of work though so the release is not imminent. We probably won't add more study Bibles, but this one does have a lot of nice useful maps, charts, etc. so we decided to add it.

Mike

Mike,

Any idea on a ballpark figure of the price yet? I recall once seeing the Accordance version for $70. If that's the price, then you're not gonna get much of a response around these parts.

Kimba
10-06-2009, 05:40 PM
Mike,

Any idea on a ballpark figure of the price yet? I recall once seeing the Accordance version for $70. If that's the price, then you're not gonna get much of a response around these parts.

I bought my Hardback ESV Study Bible for $35.00 at CBD, set my Bibleworks as shown and gave the Bible to my most favorite wife :D. $70.00 would be a be too steep for my blood.

MBushell
10-06-2009, 07:15 PM
I bought my Hardback ESV Study Bible for $35.00 at CBD, set my Bibleworks as shown and gave the Bible to my most favorite wife :D. $70.00 would be a be too steep for my blood.
I believe the price will be $20. As always we do all we can to keep prices as low as possible. This low price is possible because we already have the ESV in our base package.

Mike

Soxfan23
10-06-2009, 09:33 PM
I believe the price will be $20. As always we do all we can to keep prices as low as possible. This low price is possible because we already have the ESV in our base package.

Mike

$20, that's the exact price I had in mind! That's definitely testimony that you're true to your philosophy. Thanks so much, Mr. Bushell! Hopefully it can be ready by Christmas.

ISalzman
10-07-2009, 02:20 PM
It's not exactly a minor debate, seeing as how a traditional point of theology hangs largely upon it. I don't expect a Study Bible to be exhaustive, but thorough. A mention, perhaps. A "alternate translations read:..." perhaps. But nothing. Nada. Pure dogmatic certainty. If that's the kind of approach that extends throughout, I don't want it.

It does have nice pictures, though :)

Noun+finite verb *is* a rare thing, but it is still regular ol' Biblical Hebrew. Check out Deuteronomy 4:15 and Exodus 6:28, for example, with many more references in Gesenius 130d.
There is not another reference to reshit being in construct with a finite verb (though many hold that every occurrence of reshit is in construct), but it fits under Gesenius description in 130d. "Very often a time-determination governs the following sentence in this way" [that is, a noun in construct with a following finite verb].

Cyrus Gordon points this out as well in his Ugaritic Textbook from 50 years ago.
"A noun may be in the construct before a finite verb.... This is well recognized for Acc., as in the construction awāt iqb 'the word (that) he spoke.' Heb. has numerous, though not generally recognized, examples; e.g. the opening words of Genesis: in the beginning of he-created' (the sense is 'when god began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was chaotic--'). That we are not to emend to (inf. const.) is shown by Hosea 1:2 and Num 3:1. cf. Arabic يَوْمَ followed by the finite verb in temporal clauses equivalent to a when-clause in English." Gordon, Cyrus Herzl. Ugaritic Textbook: Grammar, Texts in Transliteration, Cuneiform Selections, Glossary, Indices. (Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1965): 56, ft 1.

I've heard both Mark Smith of NYU and Dennis Pardee of UChicago (both prominent scholars dealing with Hebrew and Ugaritic) explicitly explain Gen. 1:1 using this construction, and I lean strongly in that direction.

Again, does the ESV allude to any of this scholarship, which is not recent? No.

Okay, your points are well taken. Again though, it must be recognized that in the immediate context of Gen 1-3, construct nouns are used exclusively with infinitive construct verbal forms. I think most, if not all, would recognize the primacy of the immediate context over much broader contexts. Nevertheless, your points are taken.

revaaron
10-12-2009, 09:39 PM
I must say I am pleasantly surprised to see BW take an interest in making the ESV notes available in the future. Though some may disagree with the notes, I doubt you will find any study Bible where there is 100% agreement, and without any form of dogmatic interpretation. Just my humble opinion :) Either way, this is exciting!

Eutychus
07-09-2010, 12:22 PM
I believe the price will be $20. As always we do all we can to keep prices as low as possible. This low price is possible because we already have the ESV in our base package.

Mike

Mike, is there any update on when the ESV Study Bible will be in Bibleworks or was I asleep at the switch. Eutychus

bkMitchell
07-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Mike, is there any update on when the ESV Study Bible will be in Bibleworks or was I asleep at the switch. Eutychus

I am not Mike, but I'll try and answer this one. For news and official updates you should go to:

Forum: Official BibleWorks announcements (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?8-Official-BibleWorks-announcements)
Posts from BibleWorks staff (read-only). Announcements about new releases, sales, seminars, etc. are made here.

(and/or)

Forum: Program and database updates (http://www.bibleworks.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?52-Program-and-database-updates)


If you did not see or find news on when the ESV study Bible will/might be available that in all likely-hood means that there is no current information to be had on the subject.

MBushell
07-20-2010, 09:58 PM
FYI we are wrapping up development on the ESV Study Bible for BibleWorks. Glenn has put a massive amount of time in on this and I think it will be one of the most useful implementations of the Study Bible out there. It will appear in a new tab and also if you prefer in a CHM file. Distribution will be a challenge because we have decided to distribute the images at full resolution and the final total is around 250 megabytes. We have to figure that out before release but it is looking very good and the price will be low enough that we think a lot of people will want it. The implementation allows use with any Bible version, not just the ESV.
Mike

Michael Hanel
07-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Distribution will be a challenge because we have decided to distribute the images at full resolution and the final total is around 250 megabytes. We have to figure that out before release but it is looking very good and the price will be low enough that we think a lot of people will want it. The implementation allows use with any Bible version, not just the ESV.
Mike

I just want to give this whole thing a giant thumbs up. I don't own an ESV Study Bible, but I'll gladly get behind supporting your implementation of it. Glad I had the patience to wait. Thanks for adding something like this, I don't know that BW needs every study Bible note set out there, but this is a good addition.

Soxfan23
07-21-2010, 02:39 AM
I agree that this is a good addition and am looking forward to seeing it. While I don't agree with the philosophy of translation behind the ESV nor some of the theological views of nearly all the contributors, I will purchase this because of its depth, useful historical background info, helpful articles, and stunning maps. Besides, having it digitally will allow me to walk to church without having to take frequent stops since the load is so heavy!

Looking forward to what else may be in store for the future too :-)

ISalzman
07-21-2010, 11:13 AM
I agree that this is a good addition and am looking forward to seeing it. While I don't agree with the philosophy of translation behind the ESV nor some of the theological views of nearly all the contributors, I will purchase this because of its depth, useful historical background info, helpful articles, and stunning maps. Besides, having it digitally will allow me to walk to church without having to take frequent stops since the load is so heavy!

Looking forward to what else may be in store for the future too :-)

Hey Soxfan, I know that this question could involve an involved answer, but only looking for a brief gist and summary. What is the philosophy of translation behind the ESV and what are the theological views of nearly all the contributors?

Soxfan23
07-21-2010, 03:15 PM
Hey Soxfan, I know that this question could involve an involved answer, but only looking for a brief gist and summary. What is the philosophy of translation behind the ESV and what are the theological views of nearly all the contributors?

Philosophy of translation: pretty strict formal equivalence (word for word). It makes it clunky and unreadable in many instances and just doesn't sound like English sometimes.

Theological views: very reformed. I don't have a problem with reformed theology (even though I don't consider myself reformed) and reading what they have to say, but many of the contributors are of the breed that TULIP is the gospel itself (the "neo-reformed" type) and it drives everything they see in Scripture. Go to a conservative reformed church and a good number of people will be carrying this massive book around. When you question my Christianity based upon not adhering to a few of the main points of Calvinism, then I lose a lot of respect. Their mindset is that they speak for all of evangelicalism and make non-essentials a part of the "gospel," while they only speak for a small sect of evangelicals and create a divisive mindset by their rhetoric.

ISalzman
07-21-2010, 03:36 PM
Thanks Soxfan for a good, concise answer. I don't actually mind formal equivalence; the NASB is my first translation of choice and I think the ESV is slightly more readable than that! (And beside, I compare all the versions and the original anyway. Translation tends to be more of a hybrid and more eclectic anyway. In certain cases, I like dynamic equivalence; in certain cases, I like formal equivalence.)

I'm not a "five pointer" myself. Thanks again for the theological primer on the ESV.

What's most interesting to me is that I love the NET Bible Notes. But I definitely don't love the translation!

Jim Wert
07-21-2010, 04:04 PM
Philosophy of translation: pretty strict formal equivalence (word for word). It makes it clunky and unreadable in many instances and just doesn't sound like English sometimes.

Quoting from the BibleWorks "Copyright and Source Information:" for ESV:
"The Holy Bible, English Standard Version (ESV) is adapted from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible..."

Using Bibleworks to compare ESV and RSV I concluded that the vast majority of the words were carried over from the RSV, but the adapters made two kinds of adaptations:


Stylistic; substituting for archaisms such as thee, thou; using a different stylesheet to determine some other usages (not obviously more contemporary); quite frequently using less gender-specific words than did RSV.
Theological, editing for "correctness" e.g. Isaiah 7:14 goes from "young woman" to "virgin".


I would add that, since it follows RSV so closely, and since RSV, as a "revision" deliberately tried to preserve the wording, phrasing of the KJV, ESV does have a distinct "King James" feel.