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stbasil
12-05-2008, 11:52 AM
I noticed with some trepidation that none had responded to my earlier question about searching for accents. Since that posting I have figured out how to do accent sensitive searches for single words in WTM. This was easier than I had imagined. Searches for phrases though with specific accents might prove more difficult. In particular, it would be useful to find out how to do a search for a combination of accents i.e. when accent X is followed by accent Y. Perhaps someone might figure it out and save such a search for use in the GSE? An interesting example is Lev 5.2 where the Mp indicates that this is one of 11 combinations where pashta stands after ytiv.

Panos

bkMitchell
01-04-2010, 09:43 PM
In particular, it would be useful to find out how to do a search for a combination of accents i.e. when accent X is followed by accent Y. An interesting example is Lev 5.2 where the Mp indicates that this is one of 11 combinations where pashta stands after ytiv.
Panos

If you're still out there. I'd like to give this one a try.

Using the JDP (J.D.Price Accent Database), the command line, and assuming I have the Syntax right:

;*@*+*+*Jc* *@*+*+*Kc*
Bibleworks found 5 verses were Yetiv precedes Pashta


and

;*@*+*+*Kc* *@*+*+*Jc*
31 verses were Pashta precedes Yetiv

kuayanga
06-22-2010, 10:53 AM
I just read with much amazement that it is indeed possible to search for particular hebrew accents in BibleWorks. I tried to figure out how to search perfect verb forms following an atnah accent (or any other bigger separator accent). Could someone who knows let me know how to do this?

bkMitchell
06-22-2010, 10:38 PM
... I tried to figure out how to search perfect verb forms following an atnah accent (or any other bigger separator accent)...

(1) Select WTM( Westminster Morphology and Lemma Database ) as your search version.
(2) make sure highlight is on so you can see the results better.
(3) on the command line type:

'*@v?p????* *@*Z5*

and click/hit return or whatever you do to start a search. Then wait a few seconds...

(4) In theory this should have search for words with an atnah directly followed by perfect verb forms in the WTM. And, it should yield the following result:
542 verses 14537 forms 542 hits 20.1 sec

In WTM the accent codes are as follows
Segolta (a)
Sinnorit (s)
Zarqa, Sinnor (b)
Pazer (t)
Pashta, Azla Legarmeh (c)
Pazer Mag or Qarne Parv (u)
Pashta (with previous left) (d)
Zaqep Magnum (v)
Telisha Parvum (e)
Mahpak or Mehuppak (w)
Paseq [separator] (f)
Mereka (y)
Yetib (g)
Mereka Kepulah (z)
Dehi or Tipha (h)
Tipha, Majela, or Tarha (0)
Mugrash (i)
Munah (1)
Telisha Magnum (j)
Silluq [meteg (left)] (9,2)
Ole or Mahpakatum (k)
Meteg (right) (3)
Geresh or Teres (l)
Tebir (4)
Gershajim (m)
Atnah (5)
Azla or Qadma (n)
Galgal or Jerah (6)
Illuj (o)
Darga (7)
Shalshelet (mag,parv) (p)
Telisha Qetannah (med) (A)
Zaqep Parvum (q)
Telish Magnum (med) (B)

Try it and let us know what you think?

bkMitchell
06-22-2010, 11:27 PM
The search above is also possible in the JDP database. However, it is important to note that the accent codes are different from the WTM. Also, the JDP has two sets of accent codes; one for the so called prose books, and another set for the poetic books.

In JDP the two sets of accent codes from the athnach are: BE for prose books and CE for poetic books.

Searching in the prose books for all athnachs followed by verbs in the perfect like this
'*@v?p????* *@*BE*
will give a result of 385 verse and 385 hits

The, scanning the poetic books with:
'*@v?p????* *@*CE*
will reveal 192 verse and 192 hits

385 hits plus 192 hits provides us with a grand total of 577 hints in the JDP
this is (35 hits) over the 542 hits found in the WTM

Utilizing the verse list manager and comparing and contrasting the two different list can provide for even more fun and excitement. But, I will leave you with a little suspense...

kuayanga
06-23-2010, 03:51 AM
Thank you very much. This was extremely helpful. I tried to copy the lines from the thread with copy-paste into the command line of BibleWorks. This Did not work.
Then I typed them in manually. That works. Thank you.
Is there a quick help somewhere for learning how to use the verse list manager effectively ? I will have some fun later on - hopefully - but for the time being I am interested in speech initial qatal forms in "prose" i.e. dialogue and narrative for a research paper. So it was helpful to learn about the JDP database. I haven't even been aware of it. But I am also aware or prose and poetry sections in the Tanakh anyway, so even in a bigger bulk of results I can quickly pick those who are relevant.
After such a research, one has to skim all the results anyway.

bkMitchell
06-23-2010, 08:39 PM
...
Is there a quick help somewhere for learning how to use the verse list manager effectively ?

Yes, see BibleWorks Classroom tip 1.14 (link) (http://www.bibleworks.com/classroom/1_14/index.html)


For, what you are doing I recommend using the Graphical Search Engine (GSE) in earlier edition of BW it was called the Advanced Search Engine (ASE). I think the GSE(see tip 1.12) (http://www.bibleworks.com/classroom/1_12/index.html) and (tip 1.16) (http://www.bibleworks.com/classroom/1_16/index.html) Can make it easier to visualize what you are doing and facilitate more complex almost 'syntax' like searches. But, you may also want to check out the KWIC Module(tip 3.2) (http://www.bibleworks.com/classroom/3_02/index.html), at some point, too.

I must say it is refreshing to hear from others who are interested in searching on the accents.


So far I like Bibleworks better than other textual research software (commercial or not) but it is also good to get a second or third opinion, too. So, you may also be interested in the following free programs:

(1) Verse Structure Analyser

"You will also find here a verse analyser (http://tanakhml2.alacartejava.net/cocoon/tanakhml/d21.php2xml?sfr=1&prq=1&psq=1&lvl=99) that enables you to analyse (almost) every verse of the non-poetic books of the Bible according to its masoretic cantillation. Verse structure is visually made obvious using a "nested box" layout. This feature - based on Richard L. Goerwitz work...is probably the main added value of our site today."

(2) The BibleCrawler (link) (http://www.biblecrawler.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=59)


BibleCrawler is written in C# using the .NET 2.0 framework. It will be open source and open standard. It allows access to data in a variety of SQL databases and a special text retrieval engine called Emdros (which operates on top of SQL). It is userconfigurable - users can add new databases and on-screen layouts without any programming knowledge.

bkMitchell
06-28-2010, 10:43 PM
Earlier in this thread StBasil asked:
“... In particular, it would be useful to find out how to do a search for a combination of accents i.e. when accent X is followed by accent Y... An interesting example is Lev 5.2 where the Mp indicates that this is one of 11 combination where pashta stands after yetiv. “

(For more details on the Mp note mentioned above, these accents, the exact 11 references, and Lev 5.2; See Pages 109~110, 125 of the following:

The Masorah of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia: Introduction and Annotated GlossaryCrawford, Timothy G., Page H. Kelley and Daniel S. Mynatt Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998 )Masorah Parva Notes mentioned in the above quote in CAT and Unicode formats:

Y) B+( L)XWR )O70W B.:_NIB:LAT03
[ יא בטע לאחור[א֤וֹ בְּנִבְלַת֙


Lev 5:2 in the CAT and Unicode formats:

)O74W NE81PE$ ):A$E74R T.IG.A(02 B.:_KFL-_D.FBF74R +FM")01 )OW04 B:_NIB:LA63T XAY.F61H +:M")F81H )O70W B.:_NIB:LAT03 B.:H"MF74H +:M")F80H )O85W B.:_NIB:LA73T $E74REC +FM"92) W:_NE(:LA74M MIM./E80N.W. W:_H71W.) +FM"73) W:_)F$"75M

א֣וֹ נֶ֗פֶשׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר תִּגַּע֘ בְּכָל־דָּבָ֣ר טָמֵא֒ אוֹ֩ בְנִבְלַ֙ת חַיָּ֜ה טְמֵאָ֗ה א֤וֹ בְּנִבְלַת֙ בְּהֵמָ֣ה טְמֵאָ֔ה א֕וֹ בְּנִבְלַ֖ת שֶׁ֣רֶץ טָמֵ֑א וְנֶעְלַ֣ם מִמֶּ֔נּוּ וְה֥וּא טָמֵ֖א וְאָשֵֽׁם׃


Notice, that we have codes 70 and 03. Code 70 in the WTT stands for Mahpak/Mehuppak rather than for Yetiv proper as mentioned in the original question. Code 03 is pashta. To further complicate things the JDP also labels accents a little different in different places. Mehuppak-Pashta and Yetiv-pashta can be easily confused because Yetiv and Mehuppak “use the same symbol; the position of the symbol in relation to the work determines which accent is intended, but this is not always readily apart in the BHS…” (pg. 110 The Masorah of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia: Introduction and Annotated Glossary)


Therefore when I preformed a few queries the results did not match up with the Massorah. In fact Lev 5.2 is not found if one is searching for Yetiv, because in the database it is lable as Mahpak/Mehuppak.


In general Bibleworks contains holds great promise for accent searches. However, in this case because Yetiv and Mehappak share the same symbol and maybe be labeled on based on one’s interpretation search results may not always match up with the Masorah at first. Different manuscript and even printed editions of the Hebrew Bible may vary in regards to accents.

In conclusion I find that despite the great achievements in technology there is still need for Ginsburg’s Massorah (in four vols) and Frensdorff S’. Die Massora Magna.

SCSaunders
03-10-2011, 05:30 PM
.... I must say it is refreshing to hear from others who are interested in searching on the accents. .....bkMitchell, I've just started looking into these much more closely (dinkin' my way around (1) van der Merwe, Naude & Koreze, (2) Jouon & Muraoka, (3) GKS) wanting to move on from more than just Atnah & Silluq.

All the work you've posted in this thread - I'm blown away (my noggin' is throbbin' like a flash-bang went off inside my sinuses - or maybe it was next to my incus, malleus & stapes, 'cause I'm dizzy too. What's more, I can't hear the keys that I'm typing. "fjdkj;lfja;fjkafdkjfkldjkfjdklajfka" Nope. Didn't hear a peep.).

Got any online recommendations for learning these?

Thanks.

bkMitchell
03-10-2011, 10:07 PM
...
Got any online recommendations for learning these?...

Yes, here are a few that may help you learn the practical use of the accents for the chanting of scripture:


Recommend online sites:
http://learntrope.com/ (http://learntrope.com/)

http://www.ellietorah.com/

Navigating the Bible II (http://www.bible.ort.org/intro1.asp?lang=1)

Chanting the Bible (http://people.ucalgary.ca/%7Eelsegal/Cantillation/Chanting.html)


Recommended books on the subject:
Portnoy, Marshall, The Art of Torah Cantillation - A Step-by-step Guide to Chanting Torah: 2008, ASIN: B001JNWH4O (2nd edition, with CD) (http://www.amazon.com/Art-Torah-Cantillation-Step-Step/dp/0807407348/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1299812142&sr=8-1)

Jacobson, Joshua, Chanting the Hebrew Bible: the art of cantillation: 2002 (http://www.amazon.com/Chanting-Hebrew-Bible-Art-Cantillation/dp/0827606931/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1299812142&sr=8-3)

SCSaunders
03-11-2011, 07:09 AM
Very cool. Thanks for taking the time to post these links. I'm interested in the accents' grammatical-cuing (got maqqeph on my mind). An ear for the liturgical chanting may come in time.

bkMitchell
03-12-2011, 05:45 AM
... I'm interested in the accents' grammatical-cuing (got maqqeph on my mind)...

Technically, the 'Maqqeph' is not an accent however, the 'Maqqeph' does relate to the system of accents in so much as when two or more words are connect by Maqqeph in general those words are treated as if they were one word and the individual words are relinquishment of their accents, leaving one accent for one new compound hyphenated word. I have attached BW user bobvenem's Graphic Search Engine search files on the Maqqeph below:

846

847

Okay here are some free online resources for the grammatical/syntactical uses of the accents:


Davis, Author: The Hebrew accents of the twenty-one Books of the Bible ([K"A Sefarim]) with a new introduction (1900)http://www.archive.org/details/hebrewaccentsoft00daviuoft



Wickes, William
A treatise on the accentuation of the twenty-one so-called prose books of the Old Testament (1887)http://www.archive.org/details/treatiseonaccent00wickuoft



Wickes, William
A treatise on the accentuation of the three so-called poetical books on the Old Testament, Psalms, Proverbs, and Job, with an appendix containing the treatise, assigned to R. Jehuda Ben-Bil'am, on the same subject, in the original Arabic (1881)
http://www.archive.org/details/treatiseonacpoet00wickuoft

Grace and Peace

SCSaunders
03-12-2011, 10:01 AM
Thanks for all the links and the clarity on maqqeph. You've saved me from sounding like a grammatical hillbilly at some future geek enclave; which is going to happen sooner than you might think, the wife is planning a "nerd party." I've been told I have walk through that valley of the shadow of staring the second hand all night. I've been expressly denied the lifeline of escaping to a all-bad-guys-must-die-violently flick at the local palladium.

I had just discovered the Davis pdf; but the others are new to me. Downloading now.

What I'd like to be able to "see" as I'm reading the text, the RHB (http://www.amazon.com/Readers-Hebrew-Bible-Philip-Brown/dp/0310269741) for example, is something along the lines of what this guy (http://www.tms.edu/FacultyDocuments/HebrewAccentsrev.pdf) did with his "logical diagram," aka clausal structure layout.

Thanks again. Will definitively be consulting those pdfs.

SCSaunders

bkMitchell
03-12-2011, 07:53 PM
...What I'd like to be able to "see" as I'm reading the text, the RHB (http://www.amazon.com/Readers-Hebrew-Bible-Philip-Brown/dp/0310269741) for example, is something along the lines of what this guy (http://www.tms.edu/FacultyDocuments/HebrewAccentsrev.pdf) did with his "logical diagram," aka clausal structure layout...


In that case you might be interested in the following links:
http://lc.bfbs.org.uk/e107_files/downloads/cstrees.pdf (http://lc.bfbs.org.uk/e107_files/downloads/cstrees.pdf)
http://pages.cs.brandeis.edu/~marc/misc/proceedings/lrec-2006/pdf/6_pdf.pdf (http://pages.cs.brandeis.edu/%7Emarc/misc/proceedings/lrec-2006/pdf/6_pdf.pdf)
http://lc.bfbs.org.uk/e107_files/downloads/masoretes.pdf

However, the book Chanting the Hebrew Bible: The Art of Cantillation, also deals with syntax issues and diagrams sentences according to Michael Perlman's syntactic analysis. It also provides ample examples of how the accents can change the meaning of the sentence and words.

On, page 25 of the above mentioned work Joshua R. Jacobson gives the following example of how Gen 24:34 meaning could be change by different accents:

(a)With a major disjunctive accent on עֶ֔בֶד:
A, servant said, "I am Abraham."

(b)With a major disjunctive accent on אַבְרָהָ֑ם
Abraham's servant said, "It is I."

(c) with a major disjunctive accent on וַיֹּאמַ֑ר
וַיֹּאמַ֑ר עֶ֥בֶד אַבְרָהָ֖ם אָנֹֽכִי׃ (Gen 24:34 WTT)
He said, " I am Abraham's servent."

Jacobson's book greatly helped me understand how accents can affect translation/interpretation, for example noticed how three translations using the same Hebrew text can come out with a different interpretation based on how they read the accents:



"A Syrian ready to perish was my father," (Deu 26:5 KJV)

"A wandering Aramean was my father"(Deu 26:5 JPS 1917)

"An Aramean tried to kill my father"(Seder)

So, which interpretation are you going to accept? This where knowledge of the accents come in handy.


Another Book of interest is that by BibleWorks user James D.D Price
The Syntax of Masoretic Accents in the Hebrew Bible, should also be of interest.

POST SCRIPT:
Let, me be clear. I am not suggesting that you master how to chant the HebrewBible, rather I am recommend that you work on developing an 'ear' for the accents and their patterns. I think just as it is difficult to learn Hebrew words without knowing how to pronounce them, so is with the accents. In English we may not really need to know the " . " is pronounced as period, but we do know how the silence at the end of sentence sounds when there is a period. When a "?" mark is used we know that the last word of a sentence may have a rising intonation, or a falling intonation. Think about the word "really" depeneding on how it is intoned it could have the nuance of disbelief, surprise, interest, or boredom even. This is where I think having an ear for the accents helps in understanding how they change meaning and nuance in Hebrew.

SCSaunders
03-13-2011, 11:53 AM
Very well said. Very well reasoned. You got me thinking. Maybe a battleship can U-turn inside a harbor.

I do listen to Hebrew audio as I read. I currently listen to these (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/ptmp3prq.htm). You can find them, as I'm sure you know, at many, many links.

I've been interested in these (http://hebrewchristians.org/Online_Store/Audio/Bertonov/bertonov.html) and these (http://audiohebrewgreekbible.com/home), but the funds just aren't there yet. No big. It'll happen.

However, like I said, you got me thinking - you've made a great case. I've downloaded those pdfs and will very much consider the two book recommendations.

Once again, thanks for taking the time. I do want to learn all of this and you're bringing me closer to that goal.

Thanks!

bkMitchell
03-13-2011, 07:57 PM
I am sure funds are tight, but when ever your have the funds I really do recommend the item at your 2nd link; Rabbi Shlomo Bertonov reading of the entire Tanakh. It is in a clear modern Israeli accent.

On, the other hand, the 1st link you posted has perfectly good free audio from Abraham Shmuelof! He was born an Israeli Jew but later converted and became a Greek Catholic priest. He record both the Tanakh and the NT in his really cool sounding Sephardi Hebrew. He even pronounces the ayins differently than his alephs(something few people do these days). It is of great interest to me that an Orthodox site (mechon-mamre) would post his audio! You can find out more information on Mr. Shmuelof here: link (http://individual.utoronto.ca/mfkolarcik/AbrahamShmuelof.html).

The Academy of Ancient Languages (http://www.aoal.org/hebrew_audiobible.htm) also host files of his recordings.

Thank you SCSaunders I am really enjoying this conversation! :)

SCSaunders
03-14-2011, 07:43 AM
...Thank you SCSaunders I am really enjoying this conversation!:)Same here!