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brainout
10-16-2008, 03:01 AM
Does anyone know of an audio NT or LXX in Koine pronounciation, like Jonathan Pennington's CD? I have NT in modern Greek but don't like it. The sounds are not the same, and in many cases the sound is important to getting doctrinal nuances from the text. While I can sound out the words myself, I have this horrible habit of mixing modern and ancient Greek pronounciation, so I'd like to get audio I could play in the background all day. Quickest way to learn any language is immersion. IMO, the language should be revived.

Any ideas? THANK YOU for whatever advice or links you care to render.

tcblack
10-16-2008, 11:12 AM
I can't answer your quest for a koine speaking Bible. In part because the Erasmian vocalization you were likely taught (as was I) is according to some completely wrong.

For some excellent reading on the topic of pronunciation I might suggest you read some of Randall Buth's work on pronunciation:
http://www.biblicalulpan.org/pages/Common/Greek%20Pronunciation%20(2008).pdf

SCSaunders
10-16-2008, 11:38 AM
You may want to give this a try for the NT http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=571492&netp_id=350905&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=covers

I've never been able to find an LXX version.

brainout
10-16-2008, 11:41 AM
I can't answer your quest for a koine speaking Bible. In part because the Erasmian vocalization you were likely taught (as was I) is according to some completely wrong.

For some excellent reading on the topic of pronunciation I might suggest you read some of Randall Buth's work on pronunciation:
http://www.biblicalulpan.org/pages/Common/Greek%20Pronunciation%20(2008).pdf

Yeah, I just subscribed to B-greek yesterday AFTER making my post. I'm dying to talk about it, but need to listen more first. Thanks! :)

brainout
10-16-2008, 11:42 AM
You may want to give this a try for the NT http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=571492&netp_id=350905&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=covers

I've never been able to find an LXX version.

Yeah, I have that. Thank you. :)

SCSaunders
10-18-2008, 09:52 AM
From The Apostolic Bible Polyglot Folks - http://www.septuagint-apostolic-bible.com/index.htm

1. Pronunciation Seminary - http://apostolicbible.com/seminars/pronunciationseminar.mov (here they introduce their pronunciation POV)

2. Chapter by Chapter Video Seminars - http://www.septuagint-apostolic-bible.com/videoseminars.htm

Marilyn Phemister's GNT MP3 Audio Files - These have been around for quite a while, so you are probably familiar with them.
1. http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/gnt/home.html

brainout
10-18-2008, 11:16 AM
From The Apostolic Bible Polyglot Folks - http://www.septuagint-apostolic-bible.com/index.htm

1. Pronunciation Seminary - http://apostolicbible.com/seminars/pronunciationseminar.mov (here they introduce their pronunciation POV)

2. Chapter by Chapter Video Seminars - http://www.septuagint-apostolic-bible.com/videoseminars.htm

Marilyn Phemister's GNT MP3 Audio Files - These have been around for quite a while, so you are probably familiar with them.
1. http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/gnt/home.html

Thank you so much!

brainout
10-18-2008, 03:20 PM
Okay, did some checking on Greek transliteration of names in LXX versus the Hebrew in our beloved BibleWorks. Found out some interesting things:

Beta is often used for beth with and without dagesh, implying that in ancient times the beta was both a hard "b" and a "v";
gamma, same versus gimel with and without dagesh.
delta, same versus dalet with and without dagesh.
eta for tsere;
omicron for qibbuts;
upsilon is never transliterated for a "ee" sound, but instead, iota; upsilon seems to have no Hebrew equivalent on its own.
Is it possible that the "Erasmus" pronunciation was derived from comparing LXX transliterations of the Hebrew?

Adelphos
10-18-2008, 07:00 PM
Does anyone know of an audio NT or LXX in Koine pronounciation

This site -- http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/

pronounces the NT in both Greek and Latin, and the Greek is what is considered modern/Koine Greek.

IOW, you will find that native Greeks -- as well as philology and manuscript studies reveal -- will together maintain that modern pronunciation is virtually identical to Koine/Biblical pronunciation, and this of course includes whatever floating notion of an LXX might have existed during NT times.

Although the pronunciations at the above cite are done by an Anglo, yet his modern/Koine biblical pronunciation is outstanding. Moreover, all of his files are free of charge.

Naturally, a true native Greek, as well as those of us who are used to hearing true native Greeks speak, will be able to discern subtle differences between the slight Anglo intonations above and a true native Greek, but they are for the most part insignificant.

Erasmian pronunciation has existed nowhere in the world except in Anglo seminaries. It is totally artificial, and it is also totally misleading, and even destructive overall, as pronunciation can actually have a lot to do in certain cases with the flow and context of the Greek language, or any language, for that matter.

In any case, if you want an excellent resource for hearing Greek properly pronounced -- today as well as in biblical times -- then the above site will be of benefit to you.

brainout
10-18-2008, 08:50 PM
Thank you, Adelphos! :)

brainout
10-19-2008, 08:56 AM
Thanks to BibleWorks, I can tell how the Jews who translated into Greek pronounced BOTH the Hebrew and the Greek of that time. I'll go with their transliteration phonetics. That's how I learned Isaiah 53's Hebrew meter parsing, which lays out a prophecy map God uses to Daniel in Daniel 9. So that's how I'll learn to speak Bible Greek, too.

It's not hard. It's not possible that ai, ei, oi, and ui all have an "ee" sound. It's not possible that the beth with a dagesh transliterated with a Greek B (compare baraq, beth=house) have a "v" sound only. It's not possible that Greek D, which is transliterated for dalet with and without dagesh, to only have a dth sound. Letters are different for a reason.

Thank you for your kind help, and I will learn the modern Greek pronounciation (it's natural anyway, I always mix Greek sounds when reading) -- but I'm going to RELEARN Greek via the LXX transliteration. THAT would be closer to the Greek my Lord spoke.

brainout
03-28-2012, 06:13 PM
http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=981&sid=44f4e317d255a167c04e428b1b5c5304 is a thread in B-Greek related to the history of diacritical marks, and http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/koine-greek-pronunciation/ is a link to Dr. Buth's defense of how 1st-century Greek should be spoken. He uses 2nd-century texts as if the spelling indicated pronunciation for the whole NT period. Our English of 1611 is markedly different from today's. English pronunciation I was taught 50 years ago, is dissimilar from today's usage. I still aspirate 'stop' and 'top', for example.

So too, it seems that the pronunciation of Greek words differ in Paul's writing, versus Mary's. Using BW's GNT, I get a completely balanced meter in the Magnificat, whereas Paul rarely elides, in his balanced meter (Luke 1:46-55 versus Ephesians 1:3-14. Videos on the meter are in my 11 GGS series (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5D3F5A2E85CE65CC) under 'brainouty' in Youtube.) Elision was an Attic practice for euphony, and apparently in Mary's day there was a hot debate over it. Later on, the fashion was to allow hiatus, for the sake of clarity. Paul therefore seldom elides.

So how much debate now ensues over Dr. Buth's timespan for his claim of Koine Greek pronunciation? Thank you in advance for your own time!

Postscript FYI: 1) Dr. Buth's arguments seem to be based on tracing elision history in order to derive 'authentic' pronunciation. 2) Bible has its own accounting meter system going back to Psalm 90 that I've been tracing; it has different elision patterns: almost no elision in Psalm 90, regular elision in Isaiah 53, rare elision in Daniel 9; frequent elision in Magnificat, rare elision in Ephesians 1. Those are the Bible sections I've shown in videos thus far, but there are hundreds of them in OT; probably more than two, in the NT. This is an accounting for TIME unique to Bible; it runs under but is related to, the text: TIME reference runs in a circle; first retrospectively, but ends prospectively (i.e., re prophecy). There are about 30 complex rhetorical style characteristics in these 'time poems' (for lack of a better term); I'm gradually learning what they are, from the texts. So for now, the videos just document the rhetorical styles live, from the text.

brainout
04-05-2012, 12:40 PM
As many of you know, BibleWorks 8 et seq. has a Greek pronunciation module. I just started listening to it. But did you know, that this very topic was debated in Augustus' day? Here's a link about it: http://books.google.com/books?id=SEsTAAAAYAAJ&vq=This%20combination%20of%20vowels&pg=PA128#v=snippet&q=%22this%20combination%20of%20vowels%22&f=false

If anyone can provide more information about that ancient debate, I'd be very grateful. Mary's Magnificat and Paul's Eph 1:3-14 are both metered based on the Psalm 90 model, but using Greek words; yet their pronunciation of the Greek words, CHANGED. So we might get closer to how they pronounced words, between Mary's day, and Paul's.

Also: it seems that, just as in modern times, there is a 'standard' and a 'common' way to pronounce words. So our current debate in the Buth camp, seems to focus on how common people pronounced words, based on their misspellings. But was that the 'standard' you were taught? And should we read Bible in light of 'standard' pronunciation, or 'common'? I vote the former. But if the standard CHANGED between Mary's time and Paul's, that would prove important. Mary elides. Paul rarely does. Neither quite follow either what we today call Erasmian, or the Buthian models.

Again, if you have more information on the debate during Augustus' time, I'd be most grateful to get it. THANK YOU!