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View Full Version : What is "Bible" and what isn't?



Andrew Fincke
01-04-2008, 03:34 PM
1 Chronicles 12:34 ends with the wordς ουχ ετεροκλινως "not rebelliously" - so BibleWorks. But there's no manuscript of the Greek text that has that word in the verse cited. What they have is ου χειροκενως "not with an empty hand" with the exception that Codex Vaticanus uncorrected has ου χορεκαινως "not with a new heart" to match the Hebrew: בלא לב ולב "and not in heart and heart". So where did ουχ ετεροκλινως "not rebelliously" come from? I looked up the passage in Rahlfs and found it as cited in BibleWorks. The note in the apparatus tells us that the word is the invention of Rudolf Smend, whose argument appears in Festschrift Wackernagel, 1923. The absence of the note in BibleWorks leaves us with the figment of Rudolf Smend's imagination sitting in our Bible text at 1 Chronicles 12:34. I know the Germans like to drink. Was he drunk when he thought that one up?

MGVH
01-04-2008, 06:00 PM
From Field's edition of Origen's Hexapla on 1 Chron 12.33 (http://rosetta.reltech.org/cgi-bin/Ebind2html/TC/FieldOrigenv1?seq=821), you can see that the LXX (=O') has ου χεροκενως. There a couple other readings with variations on: ου χεροκενως, ουδε μετα καρδιας και καρδιας

jdarlack
01-05-2008, 10:03 PM
As far as I can tell, this is just how it is with many electronic biblical texts. As of now, no one has the critical apparatus available for Rahlf's Septuaginta in an electronic format. Every commercial version of the LXX (e.g., Accordance, Logos and BibleWorks) uses the base text of Rahlf without apparatus, so that's just how it is. We have to accept the idiosyncrasies of the editor's presented text without the benefit of the editor's footnotes. :( So, one cannot rely on the electronic text without looking at the in-print base text to see what annotations may be present.

It's refreshing that some companies are putting together electronic texts of actual manuscripts (http://www.accordancebible.com/blog/2006/12/representing-and-tagging-greek.html) (at least for the NT). Hopefully other Bible software companies will follow suit and apply the concept to the OT as well. It would be nice to have a reliable electronic text of various important manuscripts rather than an eclectic text.

Now about having ουχ ετεροκλινως for בלא לב ולב:

I am not a text critic, nor am I the son of a text critic, and I don't have Smend's article to see what his argument was. Still, the only other biblical instance of לב ולב is in Psalm 12:3 (WTT): בלב ולב ידברו. (Translated in the LXX as ἐν καρδίᾳ καὶ ἐν καρδίᾳ ἐλάλησαν.) Given the parallel structure of the psalm it means something akin to "double-minded" (δίψυχος: Jas 1:8; 4:8). Contrast the "double heart" (לב ולב) of 1 Chr 12:34 with the "single heart" (לב אחד) in 1 Chr 12:39 (cf. also Jer 32:39; Ezek 11:19). So in the Chronicles passage, "without rebellion" would be an appropriate, albeit dynamic, translation of בלא לב ולב. This would make better sense than "empty hand" (χεροκένως) or even "new heart" (χορεκαινως).

My two cents,

Andrew Fincke
01-06-2008, 04:37 PM
Dear Mark,
Thanks for the note on Origen, and - Jim - thanks for the exegesis of the psalm. But you've missed the point! There can't be more than a score or two (I hope!) of cases where the Germans arbitrarily changed the Bible text. Can't somebody go through the Rahlfs and correct the text from the apparatus? By the way, Jim, I happen to like Vaticanus uncorrected. It abridges the Hebrew with a Greek-Latin hybrid: χορεκαινως that didn't even make it to Liddell-Scott complete. The χορ part is Latin cor "heart", and the καινως we all know from καινη διαθηκη "New Testament".

jdarlack
01-08-2008, 04:26 PM
There can't be more than a score or two (I hope!) of cases where the Germans arbitrarily changed the Bible text. Can't somebody go through the Rahlfs and correct the text from the apparatus? Sounds like a great project Andrew! Get to work! :)
χορεκαινως that didn't even make it to Liddell-Scott complete. The χορ part is Latin cor "heart", and the καινως we all know from καινη διαθηκη "New Testament".Thanks for the info on that. I was knocking my head against the wall trying to figure out how to translate χορεκαινως!

SCSaunders
01-08-2008, 06:44 PM
I am not a text critic, nor am I the son of a text critic, ...As God Himself is my witness, this triggered an Annie Lennox "Eurythmics" flashback ...

"But theres just one thing
That you must understand.
You can fool with your brother -
But dont mess with a missionary man.

Dont mess with a missionary man.
Dont mess with a missionary man.

Well the missionary man
Hes got God on his side.
Hes got the saints and apostles
Backin up from behind.
Black eyed looks from those Bible books.
Hes a man with a mission
Got a serious mind.
There was a woman in the jungle
And a monkey on a tree.
The missionary man he was followin me.
He said stop what youre doing.
Get down upon your knees.
Ive got a message for you that you better believe."

Michael Hanel
01-08-2008, 06:54 PM
As God Himself is my witness, this triggered an Annie Lennox "Eurythmics" flashback ...


That's funny. It triggered an Amos [7:14] flashback for me. I guess we all know what you're schooled in :p

SCSaunders
01-08-2008, 08:41 PM
I guess we all know what you're schooled in :pIt's an eclectic matriculation, just like the text I use. Very koine. ;)

jdarlack
01-09-2008, 12:47 PM
Walt Kaiser (OT scholar and former GCTS president) has joked on numerous occasions: "I'm not a prophet, nor am I the son of a prophet, but I work for a non-profit organization."

BTW: Thanks for the Eurythmics flashback!

SCSaunders
01-09-2008, 03:46 PM
Walt Kaiser (OT scholar and former GCTS president) has joked on numerous occasions: "I'm not a prophet, nor am I the son of a prophet, but I work for a non-profit organization."

BTW: Thanks for the Eurythmics flashback!Hilarious!

I love being a "lurker" on this site. You folks KNOW your stuff. It's an education to just sit back and read, reread and read again. But every now and then I just can't help myself. I've got to pipe in. One of my pipe triggers is humor. Here you are in this thread, giving what I take to be great information on the subject being discussed, and smack dab in the midst is some humor. I love it.

Plus I love the tidbits and anecdotes about "the greats." Walter Kaiser definitely qualifies. I'm still laughing at the above quote.

Mark Eddy
01-10-2008, 12:46 AM
Dear Mark,
But you've missed the point! There can't be more than a score or two (I hope!) of cases where the Germans arbitrarily changed the Bible text. Can't somebody go through the Rahlfs and correct the text from the apparatus?
I've been working on and off (mostly off) for 2 years on a database that incorporates major varients in Rahlfs. I have just been typing the words from the footnotes into a new database, not substituting individual words into the main text. I'm not sure how helpful this is, so I haven't shared it with anyone, but I use it myself (where it is finished).
Since Rahlfs is a copyrighted text, and a sort of standard, it would not be right to take the conjectures out of the text and substitute words from the footnotes, unless you made a completely different text. In that case you would probably have to get permision from the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft Stuttgart, if you wanted to make available something that is basically the Rahlfs text with a few changes, at least until 2010, which (I think) is the year that the Rahlfs copyrights expire.
For what it's worth...
Mark Eddy

Andrew Fincke
01-10-2008, 11:16 AM
How much have you done, Mark? And how many German inventions masqueraded as "Bibel" have you come across?

Mark Eddy
01-11-2008, 12:37 AM
How much have you done, Mark? And how many German inventions masqueraded as "Bibel" have you come across?
I haven't been looking for conjectures. So I haven't found any. The conjecture mentioned in this forum is the first I saw. I just type in variants of more than a word or two from the footnotes. Mostly I have the whole verses that are missing from Rahlfs' LXX, so that I have some idea of how the Hebrew text was translated into Greek. Then I started going back through and typing in longer variants. I'm in 1 Kings (3 kingdoms) now, but I'm jumping around. I basically use the LXX as background for the NT usage of Greek terms, not for text criticism. I have also broken up those long verses in LXX that cover multiple verses in the Hebrew, so that the corresponding Hebrew and Greek words can display on 1/4 of my computer screen. If someone wants a copy of my lxtv.txt file and .ddf file to compile it, let me know, but it's nowhere near complete.
Mark Eddy

SCSaunders
01-11-2008, 07:29 AM
I basically use the LXX as background for the NT usage of Greek terms, not for text criticism. I have also broken up those long verses in LXX that cover multiple verses in the Hebrew, so that the corresponding Hebrew and Greek words can display on 1/4 of my computer screen. If someone wants a copy of my lxtv.txt file and .ddf file to compile it, let me know, but it's nowhere near complete.
Mark EddyMark, I think this is an excellent usage. There's no denying the LXX's influence. Wallace has a succinct way of supporting your view, "The NT vocabulary stock, however, is largely shared with the ordinary papyrus documents of the day, though heavily influenced at the times by the LXX and the Christian experience." (pg. 29, GGBB, emphasis added)

Andrew Fincke
01-11-2008, 09:01 AM
Yeh, Mark, please send the file. Especially since I don't follow:
"Mostly I have the whole verses that are missing from Rahlfs' LXX, so that I have some idea of how the Hebrew text was translated into Greek."
finckea@hotmail.com

Andrew Fincke
02-05-2008, 10:12 AM
The correct reference for the Smend invention is Jacob Wackernagel, Kleine Schriften, Volume I, Goettingen, 1953(?), 185. There we find that Smend never documented his invention but rather - as I suspected - told Wackernagel about it over a glass of beer. The argument there is not convincing. And how could it be? Smend's invention is embarassing in Rahlfs and particularly embarassing in Bible Works, which has no apparatus.